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Site Payout Systems?

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Bliss20
PGA
#1 - 2012-10-10 13:47:30 UTC
07

Hello i would like to ask what the most popular method of tracking site payouts is when multiple sites are run by differant people on the same day?

Im using my trusty Pen and Paper method but the list seems to get bigger eaxch time! And some sites are worth alot more than others so im trying to keep it as fair and simple as possible!

:)

Thank you 07
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2 - 2012-10-10 14:13:07 UTC
Our system was setup to try and encourage more participation and was based over a month - we simply worked on the basis of total haul divided by number of sites run and then paid it out based on how many sites people ran over a month rather than the values of the specific sites ran - sometimes this means someone who only ran a small number of high value sites gets paid out less than they strictly _should_ but our view was that people who put more effort in should see better rewards than those who only logged in for sites then did nothing else.
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-10-10 14:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Casirio
We get paid on site per site basis. We use a google docs spreadsheet to track it. So if I run 2 sites, I will get marked down for two sites on the spreadsheet. One of members did an epic job with it and its a bit out of my realm of expertise lol, seems a bit complicated but once its setup its the best Ive seen. Edit: there is also a column with the loot per site, and then that gets sold and split between who ran that site. So that way we can run sites for days on end and then sell the loot all at once, and our spreadsheet calculates how much each person should get based on how many sites/and the loot on those sites.
Utsen Dari
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-10-10 20:16:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Utsen Dari
We're socialists. We don't track sites at all. We pool up the site moneys for the week and divide it into shares based on a self-reported honor system. We pay you a share even if you ran no sites, as long as you can claim you did a bunch of other useful functions for the corp that week. The most useful of which is scanning out tons of systems for hours to find us targets.

That's right, you can earn a salary being a scout. Because scouting is the most important wormspace corp function.
Lenex Raay
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#5 - 2012-10-10 21:42:12 UTC
I had developed a long time ago a spreadsheet to calculate share based activity. It was originally focused on tracking large number of sites being run and then selling off the loot and splitting it equally to participants.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArEex4pet3radE9vbF9VLU9GNTBLNi03bHUzenFOUGc#gid=0
feel free to save a copy for yourself, this sheet is not editable.

Sheet Layout.
You have 3 tabs at the bottom, PAYOUT, SITE INFO and Per Site.

EDITABLE CELLS ARE IN YELLOW, Do not mess with the other cells unless you know what your doing and why your doing it.

PAYOUT tab
This first tab is where you will place pilot name for tracking purposes. This auto populates the SITE INFO tab with pilots.
Total Cell: After you sell off all your loot, place that Isk amount here, for an exact payout.
Tax cell: Allows you to specify if you want tax to be withheld from the split. Some corps like this, others dont. Optional.
Pay Split: Displays what the total Isk amount to be divided is minus tax cell.
Sites Run: Self explanatory
Per Site Payout: Takes the total isk amount minus tax, divided it by sites run and gives you a equal amount per site that can be split into shares. This method of split can be looked at differently. If for instance you think of sites being of the same value, that is incorrect. A mag site is worth more than a combat anom, and some anoms are worth more than others. This is the most simplistic means for me to figure this calculation. Regardless of what sites were done, they are all counted, totaled and used to form the Per Site Payout.
Name Column: List your pilots involved here. Can be updated as people come. You don't have to remove them if they leave.
Percentage Column: It shows how much each pilot contributed to the overall total of sites.
Payout Column: After all calculations are finished, a isk amount will display here. This will be what you send to the pilot.

SITE INFO Tab
Name Column: Displays pilots entered from PAYOUT tab.
numbered Columns: Correspond to individual sites. Example shows 4 sites have been run, 5 pilots participated on site 1 etc.
Yellow cells: Correspond to the site participants. You can specify a full share as 1 or a salvager / scout as .5 half share etc.

So using the example from the sheet, you can see 5 pilots initially started doing sites. After the first site, pilot1 decided he could not commit the time to full sites anymore and would be able to salvage however still so he was issued half a share for sites 2,3 and 4. After the second site, another pilot shows up and want in on the op. Pilot 6 would be added to the payout tab, and tracked on the SITE INFO tab as contributing for the last few sites.

Per Site tab:
This tab is for at a glance tracking of isk earned. Its not accurate, but very close. If you enter the loot into the cells corresponding (A.C.D. = Ancient Coordinates Database) it will give you an estimate of what it could sell for on market. This only tracks blue loot and Nanoribbons. Your final sale might yield more than this shows. So this tab is optional.



Hope this helps some people.
Milena Chang
Tafiy
#6 - 2012-10-11 00:52:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Milena Chang
I have been in a several different wormholes and have seen a couple of different systems used; they all work pretty well if the people in charge are competent and honest, and the regular members truly want to be fair both to themselves and others.

Space socialism/Communism: Basically you have one or a couple of individuals who decide who gets what. The big upside to this system is that the support work that goes into day-to-day wormhole operations can be accounted for. The downside is that the people doing the splitting have to be extremely trustworthy, and more importantly, they have to be impartial and objective. This system can work, and when it does it works very well, but when it doesn't it makes the game a nightmare for everyone involved.

Per site: Pretty much self explanatory; you run X amount of sites, and you get Y payout as a result. This can be done in different ways, but that is always the essence of the system. This works, but you need to have independently motivated individuals who are willing to share the load as far as collapsing wormholes, scanning, and logistics is concerned. You don't want the people that have a tendency to "semi-afk" when the corp is chain collapsing or doing logistics, and then suddenly appear when there are sites to do.

There are also hybrids of the above two (and probably systems I haven't heard of before), and different methods of funding the corporation you need to consider.

Just remember that whatever system you choose, it should reflect your corp culture,and the general attitude of your members. Strive for transparency and always act in good faith; it will be hard to screw up if you do that.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-10-11 02:14:56 UTC
put loot from op in can.
name can with the participants.
sell in HS.
take out corp tax.
divide remainder by number of people on op.
pay them.

by far the simplest method.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Bliss20
PGA
#8 - 2012-10-11 11:33:01 UTC
Thank you.

I may have a play about with the spreadsheet, I hear there is a way to track API for site running? And Corbex told me about AHARMS way i belive that is the best way for such a large corp if you have multiple groups running sites everyday over differant time zones.

The spreadsheet however looks like what i do now, But i do it all on paper and it is time consuming!

Thanks again 07

Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-10-12 23:16:25 UTC
Our current method is pretty simple:

1. Run Sites (record who runs them)
2. Salvage Sites (record the amount of loot from the Operation)
3. Place all loot after it's been recorded in the spread sheet into a secure location (we use a corp hangar tab).
4. Sell the loot in the amounts listed, marking down each amount to add up later
5. Take whatever your corp tax is out, then split evenly among participants.


I figure that if you feel like somebody is dead-weight you shouldn't be paying them or they should get a fixed amount that seems fair (we do 50 mil payouts for new guys on bigger ops if they're still figuring out their ships etc.)

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Borg Stoneson
SWARTA
#10 - 2012-10-19 19:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Borg Stoneson
I ran a monster spreadsheet that keeps track of all the site loot.

Each site FC gathers all the loot/salvage from the run and puts it into a restricted corp tab at the CHA. They then send me a mail with the total amount of blue loot/ribbons/artifacts/gas and the names of who flew the sites. I enter the data into my sheet'o'doom it keeps track of what everyone is to be paid when the loot is sold.


EDIT: Everyone gets an equal cut regardless of multiboxing etc, when we started we had people being paid based on how much they brought to the table but it caused a lot of problems.
Backfyre
Hohmann Transfer
#11 - 2012-10-22 13:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Backfyre
We use a weighted scheme to balance time spent:

1. record who runs each site
2. give each site a total value of 1. Divide that among the participants for that site
3. At the end of a "payout block", sell the loot and divide by number of sites to get a mean site value
4. Payout to each player is their summed share value times the mean site value

We use additional weights to tweak roles and multiple accounts (e.g. FC gets a little bump for doing more work and second accounts have a reduced value). Thus, instead of dividing each site by number of people, it is divided by a weighted sum and each person's share is their weighted fraction.
Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#12 - 2012-10-22 13:53:51 UTC
We have an automatic bigbrother system with timetracker. I guess next step is differentiating between billable/non-billable hours :D

Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-10-22 13:55:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Derath Ellecon
It is interesting all of the variations. One question, at least aside from backfyre's post as he covers it, is how does everyone else handle multiboxers?

I've been in corps where the split was by player, regardless of the number of pilots they are using. It seems like it can be a tough subject. On the one hand, say for example you have 3 pilots running sites. 2 pilots are multiboxed by one player. Multiboxed or not, that player is bringing 2/3 of the dps. If you pay by pilot, he is getting probably a "fair" share as the sites are going faster by him bringing the extra DPS.

But paying by pilot seems like it would incentivise single players to want to not run sites with multiboxers, as their slice seems smaller. By the same token paying by player penalizes the multiboxer who is risking more pilots and is in fact bringing the extra DPS to make things go faster.


Thoughts?

[edit]

Didn't see Borg's edit which kinda covered it as well.
Tommassino Preldent
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-10-25 13:54:00 UTC
We got a system where every ship type gets a different amount of points per participation. Tengus gets more than other T3s which get more than battleships aswell as a noctis gets some points. After each op the op leader sends a mail with the points awarded to a mailing list. Every now and then we take the loot to highsec, sell it, take some tax and divide it proportionaly to the points awarded. Multiboxers get less points per ship than regular pilots - stacking penalties. It is almost negligible up to 3 accounts though, with more it starts to affect the points.

This system has one flaw and that is that you get the same amount of money if you run ops with 3 pilots or with 10 pilots, that means it encourages you to run with a larger group which might not be ideal. This can be fixed though, for example by paying out right after the op. You take the esimated isk value, that is usually about 5-10% higher than the actual value, deduce tax and pay out from the corp wallet. Ofc this means you need a director or somebody with access to the corp wallet on each op though.
Ashimat
Clandestine Services
#15 - 2012-10-25 15:25:59 UTC
In the end somebody need to invest time for administering it all. All systems more complicated than "split loot among plexers after sites are done" or maybe "put loot in can, name after plexers, take to empire to sell" are bound to attract unnecessary bureaucracy or complexity.

The devil is in the fixation with fairness. It's a slippery slope. It never ends.

So you have this nice point-system that are "fair" based on time spent plexing, number of toons, shiptypes and shoe-size of the involved.

X fly a Tengu with faction-BCUs, Y does not, should you adjust payout for that?

How much do you pay the guy that got the plexing going in the first place? If its always the same guy that needs to step up its not "fair" is it?

How much is the initial scanning worth if you doing plexes in your static?

Is guy that are hauling stuff to Jita getting payed?

X got better market-skills then Y, should X get something for investing training time in that? Surly it's not "fair" that the rest of the corp piggyback on his skills?

What about the risk of getting blown up while getting stuff sold? Is that covered by corp insurance?

All of this seems real petty, but can quickly start taking up time. Because all of them are valid points if they are brought up in the light of what's "fair". Because everybody wants whatever system you have to be as fair as possible, right? That's what makes everybody happy, isn't it?

Err on the side of simplicity, draw a line for just how "fair" you want things to be. "Fair" is not free. Complexity kills.

Got blog: http://thecloakedones.blogspot.com
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-10-25 15:39:55 UTC
In our alliance, every person that runs a site gets a an equal share regardless if he's flying a cap or subcap, multi boxing or not. And everyone is pretty happy about it. At the end of the day its about teamwork and not about who might have done "more" or "less" because that I believe will cause problems in the corp/alliance. That is just our system though, obviously every corp/alliance is different.
Tortise Winkle VonDudenberg
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-10-25 16:56:00 UTC
10% to corp the rest is paid to those who participated. 1to1 payout. You get the same no matter if you have 4 alts or 1.
Milena Chang
Tafiy
#18 - 2012-10-25 20:13:26 UTC
We pay per character and implement the "don't be a douche" rule; it works well enough for us.

What this comes down to is just because you can dual/triple/quad box doesn't mean you should, especially when there are other people on who are only running one character.
M Thomas
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#19 - 2012-10-25 20:52:13 UTC
Utsen Dari wrote:
We're socialists.

That's right, you can earn a salary being a scout. Because scouting is the most important wormspace corp function.


One time I claimed nipple rubbing and received 400m for my efforts.
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#20 - 2012-10-26 18:17:39 UTC
We have a spreadsheet that you input the participants, sites run, and loot gathered, and it spits out the real time payout for each participant based on current market values. Corporate tax is figured in and we also give an FC bonus to encourage people to organize fleets and run sites. For us it the best balance of complexity versus "fairness" in the payout scheme. And yes, scouts and salvagers get paid the same as shooters. Big smile

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
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