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Crime & Punishment

 
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Crimewatch is Rubbish

Author
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#41 - 2012-10-11 07:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Nyla Skin wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Cutting aggression calculations by eliminating aggression. Brilliant.


How is more people having aggression toward aggressor "eliminating aggression"?

Are you saying that the person who previously could boldly go and shoot an exhumer will now chicken out because there MIGHT be somebody around who will shoot back at him? Big smile

Yes, that's kind of what will happen. Most small-scale baiting and flipping is going to disappear, and will instead be replaced by big groups of experienced players who will use such force that your average white knight wouldn't be able to deal with it. Basically, person A steals from a can, person B shoots person A, and then the rest of the alphabet comes in with enough logistics and Vindicators that person B, or anyone who helps him, won't have a chance. Due to the nature of the ships/numbers involved, these big groups will seldom fight each other due to the inherent risk of betting too much in order to gain too little, so only the little guy will get trounced.

At some point, the little guy will learn and won't engage can thieves anymore, just like people learned not to take from bait cans shortly after can-flagging was introduced. Seriously, when that feature first came out, you could get dozens of kills a day can baiting. I did. Now everyone knows not to take from a can/engage a can-baiter. The same thing will happen with the suspect flag.

Exhumers make for a bad example by the way, since a suicide-ganker gets the CONCORD anyway.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-10-11 08:28:03 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Nyla Skin wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Cutting aggression calculations by eliminating aggression. Brilliant.


How is more people having aggression toward aggressor "eliminating aggression"?

Are you saying that the person who previously could boldly go and shoot an exhumer will now chicken out because there MIGHT be somebody around who will shoot back at him? Big smile

Yes, that's kind of what will happen. Most small-scale baiting and flipping is going to disappear, and will instead be replaced by big groups of experienced players who will use such force that your average white knight wouldn't be able to deal with it. Basically, person A steals from a can, person B shoots person A, and then the rest of the alphabet comes in with enough logistics and Vindicators that person B, or anyone who helps him, won't have a chance.


Only person A will be able to shoot person B tho, so what are you talking about?
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#43 - 2012-10-11 08:56:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Ra Jackson wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Yes, that's kind of what will happen. Most small-scale baiting and flipping is going to disappear, and will instead be replaced by big groups of experienced players who will use such force that your average white knight wouldn't be able to deal with it. Basically, person A steals from a can, person B shoots person A, and then the rest of the alphabet comes in with enough logistics and Vindicators that person B, or anyone who helps him, won't have a chance.


Only person A will be able to shoot person B tho, so what are you talking about?

Person A will have enough logistics to make sure that person B has no chance of killing person A, and even though those logistics will acquire suspect flags, there's going to be to many of them that no one will engage them. On top of that, any remote assistance to person B will also become suspect, and that's where person A's backup combat ships will come into play.

Of course, that's a generalization. Every once in a while you will see two big groups of high-sec hardmen fight each other this way. But it will be a rare event. People like that usually stay away from each other, and would be hesitant to put a few billions' worth of assets at risk for the reward of maybe getting some killmails and maybe looting some T2/faction modules.

The only way to win will become a numbers game. People already rely on numerical superiority as the primary strategy in pvp. With this change, it will become the only viable strategy. The little guys, be they loot thieves or white knights, will have no chance.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-10-11 10:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ra Jackson
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Person A will have enough logistics to make sure that person B has no chance of killing person A, and even though those logistics will acquire suspect flags, there's going to be to many of them that no one will engage them. On top of that, any remote assistance to person B will also become suspect, and that's where person A's backup combat ships will come into play.


I was wondering about the bolded part and haven't seen it mentioned specifically in the blog, but as I understand it this will not be the case. But even if: Working as intended. That's how it is right now, only that there will be more occasions with the Crimewatch system.

/edit:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
People like that usually stay away from each other, and would be hesitant to put a few billions' worth of assets at risk for the reward of maybe getting some killmails and maybe looting some T2/faction modules.


You must be living in hisec...
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#45 - 2012-10-11 11:19:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Right now, RR only becomes flagged to people with existing aggression flags. That is to say, you take my can, I aggro you, you aggro me in return (let's say at the 15-minute mark, so you lose aggro to the rest of my corporation right after you aggro me), and then if you get assistance, only I will be able to shoot your logistics. This means that you can probably get by with one, maybe two logistics at most, since you only have to contend with the damage coming in from one ship.

With the crimewatch system, everyone will be able to engage your logistics, because you are a suspect. This means that you will be either forced to not steal from my can, or you will have to bring enough logistics to be able to protect yourself from any white knights who decide to intervene on my behalf.

Like I said before, with this change, the only way to win will be via numerical superiority. And yes, I do live in high-sec, and while I do plenty of pvp in other areas of space, I don't want to lose my enjoyment of this particular aspect of EVE just because some carebear apologists claim that CCP needs high-sec to be completely safe for increased subs.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Pyotr Kamarovi
Kamarov Financial
#46 - 2012-10-11 11:39:17 UTC
Ristlin Wakefield wrote:
Gaylord Fappington wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Cutting aggression calculations by eliminating aggression. Brilliant.


Hehe not to mention the lag cutting comment comes from a member of Eve University.

The very same people who sent 4 destroyers, 2 battleships, an interceptor and a Battlecruiser to chase my lone Rifter after I stole from one of their wrecks. Think of what THAT does for lag!


Pretty sure they had hotdroppers and several carrier groups waiting on standby in the nearby low-sec system in case you fled down one of the pipes toward null.


Always have Carriers on standby within jump range ~ Sun Tzu
Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-10-11 12:26:07 UTC
Ok now I understand. Thought you want to RR the can owner.
You have a point there, but I still feel it will make things more interesting, and in most cases more balanced. The only downside indeed is when the fight escalates on both sides, and the "thief" gang will only be able to RR and nothing else. But that could happen in the current state too, if only with corp members from the can owner.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#48 - 2012-10-11 12:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Leaving current aggro mechanics intact while applying the suspect flag to neutral assistants would be a far superior option. As things are right now, the thief is already exposed to the owner's entire corporation, which makes for an uneven scenario. But apparently this isn't enough and now CCP is creating what essentially amounts to a GCC for petty crimes. People are just going to number-tank, because that will be the only way to ensure success. You might want to mock me for being a high-sec warrior (I'm really not, it's just something I enjoy doing and devote most of my time to, in fact, I started this game in null), but from all of the experience I have with high-sec combat I can tell you that it will turn out exactly like this.

On top of the logistics blobs, you'll have roaming packs of bored people flying in Tornados and Machariels, volleying anyone who steals so much as a bookmark. People will learn not to take from cans very quickly.

It's bad game design that can't be justified.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#49 - 2012-10-11 12:59:04 UTC
It's identical to the inferno wardec mechanics in that the increased level of risk and the costs required to mitigate those risks force all but the most well prepared people from being able to participate and not get horribly destroyed.
Kumq uat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-10-11 17:18:33 UTC
I am looking forward to wannabe heroes stepping up for a beat down.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#51 - 2012-10-11 18:10:08 UTC
Gallente Citizen 827473904528 wrote:
Mike Adoulin wrote:
New crimewatch is going to be glorious.

Canflippers/griefers are finally going to get what they claim to want......lots more pvp in highsec.

Just...it might not be the pvp they want.....Lol

I can't wait to see some guy in a Hurricane flip a newbs can in Couster and then get bum-rushed by 200+ Velators......

It will be glorious, I tell you.





Looking forward to 200 kill mails Big smile

It'll be fun to watch the wannabe heroes trying to save the day and gaining extra kill mails Twisted



Lol. I love the imagery there. I also would be applauding the living hell out of the little guys for ganging up together and trying!! Lol

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#52 - 2012-10-11 18:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyella Stormborn
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Nyla Skin wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Cutting aggression calculations by eliminating aggression. Brilliant.


How is more people having aggression toward aggressor "eliminating aggression"?

Are you saying that the person who previously could boldly go and shoot an exhumer will now chicken out because there MIGHT be somebody around who will shoot back at him? Big smile

Yes, that's kind of what will happen. Most small-scale baiting and flipping is going to disappear, and will instead be replaced by big groups of experienced players who will use such force that your average white knight wouldn't be able to deal with it. Basically, person A steals from a can, person B shoots person A, and then the rest of the alphabet comes in with enough logistics and Vindicators that person B, or anyone who helps him, won't have a chance. Due to the nature of the ships/numbers involved, these big groups will seldom fight each other due to the inherent risk of betting too much in order to gain too little, so only the little guy will get trounced.

At some point, the little guy will learn and won't engage can thieves anymore, just like people learned not to take from bait cans shortly after can-flagging was introduced. Seriously, when that feature first came out, you could get dozens of kills a day can baiting. I did. Now everyone knows not to take from a can/engage a can-baiter. The same thing will happen with the suspect flag.

Exhumers make for a bad example by the way, since a suicide-ganker gets the CONCORD anyway.



Can flipping = Suspect. Suspect = anyone can shoot you.
Assisting a flagged or suspect (in this case, your player A) = Anyone can shoot you.
If you flag as criminal you also can not warp, dock, switch ships (except from pod).

Now, I AM curious if assisting player B (the victim in this scenario) gets you flagged to anyone, other than maybe player A.


It wont be one average white knight. I see a lot of people jumping in to help. In particular when they feel they can play mob rules (like a mini carebear version of 0.0 blob warfare).

I see this system actually getting more high sec players to try out pvp and get a feel for it, as well as putting actual RISK onto pirates, which have next to none now.


I am looking forward to seeing how this turns out. ;)

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-10-11 20:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ra Jackson
Zyella Stormborn wrote:

Now, I AM curious if assisting player B (the victim in this scenario) gets you flagged to anyone, other than maybe player A.


As I understand it assisting the victim (who has no flag except the special flag towards the suspicious guy he is shooting right now) should raise no flag. I couldn't find information if even player A gets any rights due to this..
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#54 - 2012-10-11 21:18:01 UTC
Ra Jackson wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:

Now, I AM curious if assisting player B (the victim in this scenario) gets you flagged to anyone, other than maybe player A.


As I understand it assisting the victim (who has no flag except the special flag towards the suspicious guy he is shooting right now) should raise no flag. I couldn't find information if even player A gets any rights due to this..



Heh, this would be an important factor. Has anyone found any information or confirmation regarding this question?

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Beachura
Doomheim
#55 - 2012-10-11 21:25:46 UTC
Adapt or die.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-10-11 21:43:30 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Exhumers make for a bad example by the way, since a suicide-ganker gets the CONCORD anyway.


So what other criminal suspect flags did you have in mind in highsec? This doesn't affect legal aggression like wars anyway..

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#57 - 2012-10-11 23:51:15 UTC
Nyla Skin wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Exhumers make for a bad example by the way, since a suicide-ganker gets the CONCORD anyway.


So what other criminal suspect flags did you have in mind in highsec? This doesn't affect legal aggression like wars anyway..

Stealing from cans for the most part, as in the case of flipping miners and mission runners, or picking up/ninjaing loot from ganks or other kills in empire.

I'm sure if you give them enough time, CCP will also extend the suspect flag to such hostile actions as scanning a person's ship, targeting them without their permission, or sending them a mail with cuss words in it.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#58 - 2012-10-12 00:27:27 UTC
All that RR in Hek Twisted

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2012-10-13 00:33:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Misunderstood Genius
Crimewatch will simply separate the real PvPers from those annoying coward PvPer hiding their incomptence behind game mechanics. You can't store your t3 in your comfy Orca or use your lame neutral logistics in hi-sec anymore? RR carrier at undock might die by a hotdrop? So, what's now? Pro-tip: Unsub or die. Twisted
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-10-13 05:15:56 UTC
Misunderstood Genius wrote:
Crimewatch will simply separate the real PvPers from those annoying coward PvPer hiding their incomptence behind game mechanics.


Uh-huh. Roll