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LOL Oxygen Isotopes

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RAW23
#141 - 2011-10-06 13:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: RAW23
I was only really interested in the profit figure. As you say, supercap builders can clear similar levels and I've had a 3 man highsec corp making monthly profits at about 55-60% of those cited by the Goon spreadsheet. I guess I'm just a bit surprised that the large alliances don't have their own in-house industrial isk-printing presses when they have such a huge manpower pool to draw on and when just two or three well-run operations could double or triple their profits.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2011-10-06 13:51:46 UTC
Don't be. The most valuable resource for spaceholding is an active pvp culture.

Industrial wings that do any more than provide infrastructure for that goal usually end up being a cancer to that very culture.
flakeys
Doomheim
#143 - 2011-10-06 13:57:36 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
That's 173b profit, revenue was 350b; idk if that makes a difference to your point.

whereas many spaceholding corps last precisely because they pour a lot of money right back into their members getting blown up in space.



Your forgetting the cut for the 'directors' every moth usually also takes a big bite out of revenue Blink

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Atima
Inevitable Outcome
E.C.H.O
#144 - 2011-10-06 13:59:24 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
Don't be. The most valuable resource for spaceholding is an active pvp culture.

Industrial wings that do any more than provide infrastructure for that goal usually end up being a cancer to that very culture.


I agree with the valuable resource being the pvp culture. But if they were to reinvest the industrial profits effectively ( rarther than just letting whoever makes them keep them ) then that alliance would quickly rise to be a superpower. If the likes of goons can only afford 4 titans per month with the resources at their disposal imagine what could be done if someone actually utilized it effectively.
RAW23
#145 - 2011-10-06 14:05:16 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
Don't be. The most valuable resource for spaceholding is an active pvp culture.

Industrial wings that do any more than provide infrastructure for that goal usually end up being a cancer to that very culture.



I understand how a focus on individual isk-making can undermine morale and community (e.g. NC and Atlas) but I'm struggling to see what the negative effect would be of utilising, say, 30 members of an enormous alliance in a way that doubled or tripled the income received directly from holding space.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2011-10-06 14:12:56 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
I understand how a focus on individual isk-making can undermine morale and community (e.g. NC and Atlas) but I'm struggling to see what the negative effect would be of utilising, say, 30 members of an enormous alliance in a way that doubled or tripled the income received directly from holding space.


That's a fair point, and I believe that's the direction Goons are going with their "finance" or "market" team. The historically corrosive effect is why modern top-end alliances are hesitant to go down that road, though you're right in that there is obviously some optimum balance that can be met.
Snabbik Shigen
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2011-10-06 14:37:22 UTC
Atima wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
i bet most of you posting here smugly believe in homo economicus and rational actors which is why your theories are all so comically off base

guys guys guys everyone with a pos has months of fuel stockpiled because it's the rational thing to do, 'heh'


Actually its highly irrational. The value of several months fuel/reactants is significant as opposed to the cost of setting up a new tower.

1 month of fuel/reactants can buy several new towers. Masively increasing your return on investment. You will tend to find them holding at most 1 month of fuel on hand, any more than that is highly inefficient for someone involved in this.


Except that most of us with POS towers in hi-sec are now used to the antics of the annual or semi-annual Hulkageddons that disrupt ice gathering & supply for 2-3 weeks at a time (4 weeks?). So in order to keep the towers running during things like this campaign or the Hulkageddons or the original jihadswarm, it is rational to keep a stockpile of fuel so that you can ride out bumps in the market. While a 12-month supply is probably excessive, 30-90 days of fuel stocks is not.

There's no ROI if the POS towers go offline because you can't reliably get fuel.

(The concept here is similar to keeping a well-stocked pantry that lets you keep eating even if you can't get to the grocer for a week or two.)
Atima
Inevitable Outcome
E.C.H.O
#148 - 2011-10-06 15:19:10 UTC
Snabbik Shigen wrote:
Atima wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
i bet most of you posting here smugly believe in homo economicus and rational actors which is why your theories are all so comically off base

guys guys guys everyone with a pos has months of fuel stockpiled because it's the rational thing to do, 'heh'


Actually its highly irrational. The value of several months fuel/reactants is significant as opposed to the cost of setting up a new tower.

1 month of fuel/reactants can buy several new towers. Masively increasing your return on investment. You will tend to find them holding at most 1 month of fuel on hand, any more than that is highly inefficient for someone involved in this.


Except that most of us with POS towers in hi-sec are now used to the antics of the annual or semi-annual Hulkageddons that disrupt ice gathering & supply for 2-3 weeks at a time (4 weeks?). So in order to keep the towers running during things like this campaign or the Hulkageddons or the original jihadswarm, it is rational to keep a stockpile of fuel so that you can ride out bumps in the market. While a 12-month supply is probably excessive, 30-90 days of fuel stocks is not.

There's no ROI if the POS towers go offline because you can't reliably get fuel.

(The concept here is similar to keeping a well-stocked pantry that lets you keep eating even if you can't get to the grocer for a week or two.)


I was refering to reaction towers. You're going to have atleast 2 weeks stockpile with those even. The thing to remember is research POS have a hard cap on how many you need ( how many slots you can manage ) and you only have to go to the tower to refuel/pick up BPC. With reaction towers its much different - There is no point holding loads of fuel and less reactants - you're going to need to go to jita anyway, plus you can utilise the value of the stockpile into more towers.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2011-10-06 15:44:42 UTC
Atima wrote:
I was refering to reaction towers. You're going to have atleast 2 weeks stockpile with those even. The thing to remember is research POS have a hard cap on how many you need ( how many slots you can manage ) and you only have to go to the tower to refuel/pick up BPC. With reaction towers its much different - There is no point holding loads of fuel and less reactants - you're going to need to go to jita anyway, plus you can utilise the value of the stockpile into more towers.


This was my experience with running a medium-size (10) reaction farm.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#150 - 2011-10-06 15:49:11 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
I understand how a focus on individual isk-making can undermine morale and community (e.g. NC and Atlas) but I'm struggling to see what the negative effect would be of utilising, say, 30 members of an enormous alliance in a way that doubled or tripled the income received directly from holding space.


That's a fair point, and I believe that's the direction Goons are going with their "finance" or "market" team. The historically corrosive effect is why modern top-end alliances are hesitant to go down that road, though you're right in that there is obviously some optimum balance that can be met.


goonswarm has a very good finance team because before we had one we forgot to pay the space rent and lost all our space as a result

good finances enable effective alliance pvp support and financial knowledge enables focused economic terrorism

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#151 - 2011-10-06 15:50:41 UTC
so we can go "hey, guys, buy lots of guidance systems at 418/unit" or "hey guys, buy lots of oxygen isotopes" and we enrich our members without them having to do horrid stuff like ratting or the like

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Atima
Inevitable Outcome
E.C.H.O
#152 - 2011-10-06 19:55:55 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Elise DarkStar wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
I understand how a focus on individual isk-making can undermine morale and community (e.g. NC and Atlas) but I'm struggling to see what the negative effect would be of utilising, say, 30 members of an enormous alliance in a way that doubled or tripled the income received directly from holding space.


That's a fair point, and I believe that's the direction Goons are going with their "finance" or "market" team. The historically corrosive effect is why modern top-end alliances are hesitant to go down that road, though you're right in that there is obviously some optimum balance that can be met.


goonswarm has a very good finance team because before we had one we forgot to pay the space rent and lost all our space as a result

good finances enable effective alliance pvp support and financial knowledge enables focused economic terrorism


Given access to your resources, they should be making alot more that 173bn per month.

We didn't want that all that isk anyway?
Anela Cistine
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2011-10-06 20:46:26 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
173bil Shocked

I had no idea that major alliances had such low incomes (well, actually I had an inkling when I read the chatlogs surrounding the fall of Atlas and their squabbling over a few hundred bil). Presumably this is a peace-time figure and goes down considerably with major combat operations?


We told you nullsec needs an income buff. We're starving out here. Sad


We don't run reaction towers at an alliance level because there is a chronic shortage of people that are willing to do boring POS stuff for free. It's different in a 3 man corp, because you're getting the profits. In a huge alliance, reaction farm guys are working their tails off to make a rich alliance slightly richer. We also don't mine any but the most valuable moons as an alliance, to help keep our precious logistics team from burning out.

I believe we do sell raw goo to corps and individuals locally at jita prices (saving both us and the buyer the cost of shipping). They can mine the less valuable moons themselves, react their brains out, and then sell for personal profit. That won't show up on the alliance finance sheet though, because it's not alliance profit.
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#154 - 2011-10-07 05:13:16 UTC
Nomad I wrote:
The Mittani wrote:

guys guys guys everyone with a pos has months of fuel stockpiled because it's the rational thing to do, 'heh'


You are a good alliance leader, but not a capitalist. A serious capitalist don't try to stockpile because such an investment gives no profit. Read this book instead of using hilarious paintings from China on Kugu.


i've read das kapital and watched the david harvey lectures, i know a thing or two about stuff, also money

since i retired at 31

i was mocking the md idiots who have been howling that this won't make any impact due to stockpilesstockpilesstockpiles.

~hi~
Czeris
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#155 - 2011-10-07 05:26:33 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
Nomad I wrote:
The Mittani wrote:

guys guys guys everyone with a pos has months of fuel stockpiled because it's the rational thing to do, 'heh'


You are a good alliance leader, but not a capitalist. A serious capitalist don't try to stockpile because such an investment gives no profit. Read this book instead of using hilarious paintings from China on Kugu.


i've read das kapital and watched the david harvey lectures, i know a thing or two about stuff, also money

since i retired at 31

i was mocking the md idiots who have been howling that this won't make any impact due to stockpilesstockpilesstockpiles.


It's been said multiple times that the only real thing that would cause Oxytope prices to revert back to their old moving average would be a premature halt to the interdiction campaign. I find it highly unlikely that null and lowsec production will increase enough to meet the lost supply considering that there are much more lucrative activities for nullsec bot accounts to engage in than ice mining.

Hey Mittens, I posted an idea in the new Letters of Marque subforum that might tickle your communist space pirate fancy, and ensure increased fervor amongst the Dread Pirate ranks.
Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
#156 - 2011-10-07 08:26:34 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
173bil Shocked

I had no idea that major alliances had such low incomes


Huh. This. (Assuming you trust their oddly-public spreadsheet.)

*compares his own monthly profit to 173B, divides, and comes away rather satisfied*

If you magically had 3x your current profit, what would you spend it on? Supercaps?
Alaizabel Bronstein
Doomheim
#157 - 2011-10-07 08:39:31 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
i've read das kapital and watched the david harvey lectures, i know a thing or two about stuff, also money

1st volume of Das Kapital is worthless read the Grundrisse and the 3rd volume instead or gtfo
Vio Geraci
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2011-10-07 09:09:56 UTC
The measure of an alliance's financial success is not how rich the alliance is, but how rich the members are. Hope this helps!
Guillaume LeConquerant
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#159 - 2011-10-07 09:12:53 UTC

ITT people think that the goal of the game is to make isk.
Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
#160 - 2011-10-07 09:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kethas Protagonist
Guillaume LeConquerant wrote:
ITT people think that the goal of the game is to make isk.


It's a sandbox game. If someone were to say they get the most enjoyment out of EVE by deciding that the objective is to roll around in pools full of money, you can't really "prove them wrong."

That being said, for many such invented sandbox objectives, even ones that aren't explicitly financial, having a bunch of cash on hand surely helps.

Edit: My earlier question stands, too. I'm curious what you guys would do if you woke up and found a golden egg that spits out 300B/month.

Also: "spitting egg" has some interesting hits on google.