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The sad state of WH PvP
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Flyin' Hawaiian
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2012-10-13 07:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyin' Hawaiian
Bottom line is: We're playing EvE. For better or worse EvE doesn't have a pvp arena, per say.

I get it, you were frustrated in not getting a fair fight. We've all been there. We get frustrated when people drop lots of stuff on us too. Like you correctly did, if you don't wanna engage a bigger force, then don't. Or change up your tactics to fight such forces.

Opponents don't always do what you want them to do. We don't need to play the same way. That's part of what makes EvE great. The uncertainty of fights makes the fights that do happen more exciting. Thinking that everyone must fight a certain way seems foolish in a game like EvE.

I believe you misunderstood M Thomas, perhaps his transmission was lost. (yeah i went there P)

"Alisyana" wrote:
don't be sore if the other fleet isn't stupid enough to engage


"M Thomas" wrote:
We were fine with the outcome of the whole thing, you tried to catch us, we tried to catch you, nobody got caught. Why in the world you guys felt the need to complain about is beyond me.


He feels your choice to not engage was the right one, but was confused as to why you would complain about this when it is a part of EvE. Although I guess you could say complaining also seems to be a part of EvE Lol He was not complaining about you disengaging.

You might think of it like poker. You don't have to fight each time. Sometimes folding is the best choice. Also, you don't have to call each time, you can raise. There's nothing that says you must only call each hand. In fact, such a game would be boring.

We've been around long enough to know bringing a big fleet might potentially spoil possibilities of engagements with smaller opponents. Similarly, bringing a small fleet also means we can't engage a possible bigger fight out there. That's a balance we have to attempt to strike each time with any of the corps we encounter.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#122 - 2012-10-13 10:09:43 UTC
Alisyana wrote:

Yeah, I must be an idiot to think your frigs would engage... Does that make you an idiot to think I'd stick around when you pile in 19 to take us on? I'm using you as a prime example of what not do if you want to get some fights.

Here's a suggestion... If you've got 20 ppl online... make 2 fleets of 10, or 4 fleets of 5. Idea


So why didn't you downship to frigs and boot half of your fleet out if "fair fights" are that important to you?

You know now it just looks like you pussied out of a fight and then decided it was a good idea to post on the forums claiming BLOBBBBBbloobloo

.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#123 - 2012-10-13 14:35:02 UTC
Roime wrote:
Alisyana wrote:

Yeah, I must be an idiot to think your frigs would engage... Does that make you an idiot to think I'd stick around when you pile in 19 to take us on? I'm using you as a prime example of what not do if you want to get some fights.

Here's a suggestion... If you've got 20 ppl online... make 2 fleets of 10, or 4 fleets of 5. Idea


So why didn't you down ship to frigs and boot half of your fleet out if "fair fights" are that important to you?

You missed the memo!

The person or persons found first are required to down ship. The "finding" party is allowed to remain in their original fleet comp (if they so desire...)


Roll

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Noisrevbus
#124 - 2012-10-13 15:26:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
It's interesting i get a slew of personal criticism, but none of you debate either the topic itself or the arguments i brought up when you adress me. Adress what i am saying instead of adressing that i am saying something.

It's interesting in the sense that it's not unfamiliar, when looking at similar cases like Empire players complaining about suicide ganks or Nullsec players complaining about AFK cloakers. It's always the "lolol, you don't 'get' us" goat.

I'm sure people in Wormholes "love" the mechanics (at least the ones who have no aspiration beyond them), and as far as protecting yourselves from being unseated by a much more resource heavy group i can sympathize. They do that.

The issue is that you are not only depraving larger groups of targets (by secluding yourselves through defensive collapsing and similar exploitation) but also any smaller groups and any casual interaction, as was the point with the RnK vs. K162 example. How many attempts of finding that system did they do, 101?

You are depraving the game of targets, while good WH groups like VoC are looking for more target rich environments as WH can't sustain them (because the systems lack general traffic). Some people want their haven to be Empire, others want their haven to be Sovspace and appearantly the sentiment is strong among many here to retain W-space as their haven. Not a haven from the resource game, but a haven from all forms of outside interaction.

Scruff at it all you like or attempt to defame my character... but there is an issue here and you are avoiding it.

You can debate the issue and weigh the pros and cons, or you can pull the bear card and start calling names.

The OP opened up the discussion with "the sad state of WH PvP", so don't get all jumpy at me for discussing the topic.
Locus Lacus
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#125 - 2012-10-13 16:07:56 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:
I
The issue is that you are not only depraving larger groups of targets (by secluding yourselves through defensive collapsing and similar exploitation) but also any smaller groups and any casual interaction,

You are depraving the game of targets,


That is one .. interestingly nutty flavored statement sir. You are implying that I play this game for the enjoyment of random other players I don't even remotely know, instead of say my own enjoyment and that of people I choose to play with.

Your arguments are sure to make me change my mind and entice me to become another target for those larger groups, after all it is clear that my role in life is to serve others, even by paying a monthly fee for the honor of being some else's target. I shall promptly stop playing the game for my enjoyment and start playing it for yours.

My deepest apology and I shall hasten to the nearest nullsec wormhole where I shall live my life for the benefit of others. My self centered, nay, almost Ayn Rand ways are at an end I shall take my proper place, posthaste.
Noisrevbus
#126 - 2012-10-13 16:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
That goes for you too Locus, you can try to laugh it off or you can debate the topic.

If you want to single a lone comment out of context and then spend three segments just being sarcastic, because the topic is uncomfortable for you, that's up to you.

The OP raised a discussion about the "sad" state of WH PvP and my comment remain that it's because the mechanics stifle all traffic, not just some traffic (of larger resources). In essence, things like defensive collapsing deter general roaming as much as it does amassing resources. If we consider those mechanics or that practise questionable, we should be able to discuss it without childish outbursts.

It makes WH a target-starved environment. It's about letting me be your target as much as you being mine.
Locus Lacus
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#127 - 2012-10-13 16:48:52 UTC
I see, you still think you right and I'm being sarcastic to hide my discomfort. I'm being sarcastic because you are wrong. I never found myself unable to roam w-space, I never found myself stifled by the play style of others. Sometimes we scan 20 systems to find 2 guys who hid in a POS after seeing probes. Other times we roam nullsec and after 20 jumps of empty systems we find 2 guys playing station games. There are no wormhole mechanics subtracting from my fun an any way, I just wonder if you know how to play the game in wormholes.

If you wanted to make a coherent argument about how both wormhole space and nullsec are too large and too resource rich for their population resulting in little incentive for daily conflict, I might listen to you, but that is not the argument you are making,

You are looking for excuses why you don't enjoy WH pvp. You are blaming the mechanics, other players, size of corps, everything you can instead of admitting WH life might not be for you. It isn't for everyone, you know? And certainly it is not the responsibility of other players to change their game style for your enjoyment.

I can't take you seriously when you are accusing others of making your game not fun, eve is big, go play it somewhere where it is fun. Or don't play.
Noisrevbus
#128 - 2012-10-13 17:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Locus Lacus wrote:

You are looking for excuses why you don't enjoy WH pvp. You are blaming the mechanics, other players, size of corps, everything you can instead of admitting WH life might not be for you. It isn't for everyone, you know? And certainly it is not the responsibility of other players to change their game style for your enjoyment.

I can't take you seriously when you are accusing others of making your game not fun, eve is big, go play it somewhere where it is fun. Or don't play.


I use WH quite alot (though i don't live in one to make my income there), but i also know there's a tedium that keep others out in general and me on occassion.

It's not about others not making my game fun. It's about discussing the mechanics and questionable practise that relate back to them.

The most amusing bit here is that i'm not really debating this on my own accord. I am assuming the perspective of the OP and trying to discuss his topic. I am referencing my own experiences and those of others i have spoken with.

You still speak with the same kind of entitlement that other players in different subsets of the game do, like when they want to nerf cloaks because sovspace "shouldn't be for everyone".

We've gone back and forth over a couple of posts now and you still haven't adressed the argument i actually did make: the collapse mechanics stifle all traffic. If you want more interaction in WH you would try to find a way to raise the traffic and invite more players to come visit. If you are content with the seclusion, that it "shouldn't be for everyone" that is noted, but you are not discussing the OP's topic.

Look, it's in the OP:
Quote:
I can see why many PvP'ers leave for NS, why verge do NS roams all the time because there are so few targets in WH's, almost nobody wants to fight.

So if we want to discuss the OP's topic we should probably try to identify problems and discuss how to solve them.

Do that instead of beating around the bush or calling me names to divert attention.

You seem avertent to even discuss the topic, but this isn't ingame - this is a discussion forum and it's entire purpose is to discuss things. If you don't agree with the OP on a personal level, try to assume his perspective and look at a reasonable level of discussion.
Utsen Dari
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2012-10-13 17:24:47 UTC
r.e. the bruhaha about reshipping on the last page: Is this the same transmission lost that last week escalated the initial engagement up to a carrier and a squad of T3s to trap our little gang, after which we died a bunch but stayed on field for 20 minutes until we could get more pilots online and a dread into the fight to deal with your reps? 'cuz that fight was freaking awesome, with both sides escalating over the course of it and advantage shifting back and forth over time. We should have more of those where everybody escalates, not less.
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#130 - 2012-10-13 18:20:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Fremen
Noisrevbus... You don't live in Wspace and make assumptions? Why the **** are you perpetuating this horrible thread? I don't own a Buick, nor have I ever driven one, but this is what your problem with it is...
Locus Lacus
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#131 - 2012-10-13 18:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Locus Lacus
Noisrevbus wrote:

I use WH quite alot (though i don't live in one to make my income there), but i also know there's a tedium that keep others out in general and me on occassion.
.......
We've gone back and forth over a couple of posts now and you still haven't adressed the argument i actually did make: the collapse mechanics stifle all traffic.



Right .. so you have absolutely no idea what so ever what you are talking about. You did not make an argument, you made a statement, so lets put this to bed right and address it to your satisfaction: You are wrong. The so call collapse mechanic does nothing of the kind, it doesn't stifle traffic, it reroutes it.

My LF colleague is indeed correct, why the hell are you getting in broad generalizations about a facet of the game you only have brief and tangential contact with? Mind you, you are entitled to your opinion even if you never saw a wormhole, never mind lived in one, just don't expect us to take you seriously when you express your "better plan" to those who live there.
El Liptonez
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#132 - 2012-10-13 20:21:18 UTC
I fail to see the problem here. I share the opinion that Gnaw gave as first reply to this thread.

It seems we got used to the fact that wormholes are a little playground where stalking and hiding come with better results than numbers. It used to be the same in EVE since forever. Five years ago or so every major alliance used to fly what they wanted to fly in PVP, so people with superior skill killed them to no end using sniper hacs. In recent history it was armor hacs, then it was abaddons, then nagas. The average alliance slowly catches up to those that invent and exploit new tactics.

This is what is happening in wormholes just as it does in 0.0. People started flying flying T3 fleets ages ago, with the rise of dreads + triage carriers running anoms people switched from Guardians to Archons for RR, R&K showed us how Bhaalgorns worked, now everyone flies dreads + carriers + bhaalgorns, t3s, there's not much left to get an edge over anyone else other than numbers.

I don't see how people are more risk-averse in wormholes than they are in 0.0. In contrast to 0.0, people in wormholes fly T3s as the "standard" ship instead of Drakes, they throw around now 2-4b capitals and 1b faction BS which you never see in 0.0.

You don't get no PVP in wormholes because people don't want to fight, you get none because only a fraction of the inhabitated wormholes contain PVP corporations/alliances. There's 50 or so "notable" WH corporations/alliances in the ~300 high class wormholes we have, of those 50 only another fraction actually focus on PVP, they are spread out through different timezones and member sizes, which in the end results in a tiny possibility of somewhat "even" PVP happening in wormholes.

Since you mentioned our alliance. We don't roam 0.0 because no one would fight us in wormholes (as in they're afraid of doing it). The chance to find something to shoot in wormholes (even just bearing people) is so small it's not worth wasting all our time for.
We don't magically get a lot of good fights in 0.0. Literally no one fights us in 0.0 without at least at 2:1 numbers advantage, I'd say 3:1 to 5:1 are the average response rates to our gangs going around in 0.0. I don't like it either, but I have to live with it and got used to it instead of complaining much.

All this is not a "problem" of wormholes, it's a problem in the concept of the game and holds true anywhere from wormholes to 0.0, to low and high sec.

Learn to live with it or go do something else.
Alisyana
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#133 - 2012-10-13 22:16:08 UTC
Flyin' Hawaiian wrote:
Bottom line is: We're playing EvE. For better or worse EvE doesn't have a pvp arena, per say.

I get it, you were frustrated in not getting a fair fight. We've all been there. We get frustrated when people drop lots of stuff on us too. Like you correctly did, if you don't wanna engage a bigger force, then don't. Or change up your tactics to fight such forces.

Opponents don't always do what you want them to do. We don't need to play the same way. That's part of what makes EvE great. The uncertainty of fights makes the fights that do happen more exciting. Thinking that everyone must fight a certain way seems foolish in a game like EvE.

I believe you misunderstood M Thomas, perhaps his transmission was lost. (yeah i went there P)

"Alisyana" wrote:
don't be sore if the other fleet isn't stupid enough to engage


"M Thomas" wrote:
We were fine with the outcome of the whole thing, you tried to catch us, we tried to catch you, nobody got caught. Why in the world you guys felt the need to complain about is beyond me.


He feels your choice to not engage was the right one, but was confused as to why you would complain about this when it is a part of EvE. Although I guess you could say complaining also seems to be a part of EvE Lol He was not complaining about you disengaging.

You might think of it like poker. You don't have to fight each time. Sometimes folding is the best choice. Also, you don't have to call each time, you can raise. There's nothing that says you must only call each hand. In fact, such a game would be boring.

We've been around long enough to know bringing a big fleet might potentially spoil possibilities of engagements with smaller opponents. Similarly, bringing a small fleet also means we can't engage a possible bigger fight out there. That's a balance we have to attempt to strike each time with any of the corps we encounter.


Ahh, now that's well said. Gets a +1 from me.

**Definition of "SD" (Self Destruct) = "It's like running up to someone to kick them in the balls, they see you and proceed to kick themselves in the balls, and then laugh at you for denying someone a chance to kick them in the balls." ** - Celery Man
Alisyana
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#134 - 2012-10-13 22:32:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Alisyana
Utsen Dari wrote:
r.e. the bruhaha about reshipping on the last page: Is this the same transmission lost that last week escalated the initial engagement up to a carrier and a squad of T3s to trap our little gang, after which we died a bunch but stayed on field for 20 minutes until we could get more pilots online and a dread into the fight to deal with your reps? 'cuz that fight was freaking awesome, with both sides escalating over the course of it and advantage shifting back and forth over time. We should have more of those where everybody escalates, not less.


Same LOST, different group you ran into. We're in many different places at once, but never too far apart. The point I was trying to make, and Noisrevbus clearly gets it, is the OP starts a thread about the sad state of pvp and how hard caps are to kill, and how hard it is to get a fight. The rest of the posts all are accusations that the "other guy" won't play fair, and talk of changes from the mechanics to the rules of the game are brought up.

I feel there's lots of pvp to be had. Granted, you may not get a fair fight all the time, which is why I spend my time doing things other than roaming - unless our guys call me in. That's because there's tons of other pvp to be had, it doesn't just have to be roams and groups meeting each other.

So when I was asked to take that fleet the other day, I decided instead of plotting a trap and gank, I'd test the theory, thinking that anyone who wanted a good fight would bring one, instead of making it into an arms race. I was wrong, and clearly disappointed in the outcome, and I wanted to tell him that. However, what I didn't think was appropriate was how a simple conversation had to degrade into smack. But, it's a game, everyone has different goals. I wanted a straight up even fight, the Adhoc FC wanted a clear victory. I'm not bashing him for it, but at least he should up and admit that's what he was doing, if that indeed was what he was doing.

And in that fashion, I'll know next time I run into them - which I will, that's what I'm going to expect. I do have respect for the groups that bring it, and Adhoc does for the most part. Maybe a lot of people want to win at all costs, even if it's lopsided, but I repsect those guys far more when they are willing to leave something on the table in order to make it more fun.

I can have just as much fun ganking caps, and ambushing, just the same as being in an even up fight.

**Definition of "SD" (Self Destruct) = "It's like running up to someone to kick them in the balls, they see you and proceed to kick themselves in the balls, and then laugh at you for denying someone a chance to kick them in the balls." ** - Celery Man
MWBartko
Mega Global Compucon
#135 - 2012-10-14 23:01:13 UTC
If we could moon mine in WHs people would fight for them. Moons are the answer.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#136 - 2012-10-15 02:07:59 UTC
MWBartko wrote:
If we could moon mine in WHs people would fight for them. Moons are the answer.


youre an idiot...

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#137 - 2012-10-15 09:12:31 UTC
Some interesting posts here.

I noticed, or think I noticed, a curious thing: In the past days, when Eve-kill was down (it probably still is), and even Battleclinic was often down or too slow to use, I had the impression that more people engaged us than usual. I myself was frustrated when I couldn't check out potential targets for their pvp history, but usually I then thought "ok let's just engage them".

Now this obviously will not work for people everyone already knows and fears without having to look them up, but I get the feeling that a good killboard record is hurting one's chances to get fights. Maybe we should all start over, make new, smaller corps and don't post any kills publicly from now on *g*

.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#138 - 2012-10-15 09:35:41 UTC
Alisyana wrote:
Today, after finding a couple Adhoc T3's noodling around, I decided to take a group to see if we could get a fight. They screw around for a while, and we see them in bombers and ceptors on a gate. Not gonna engage that with our fleet, it's not worth it. They warp off, and I even ask in local as if they're going to reship. No answer. So after a few mins, I'm sick of waiting, I got other stuff to go kill, and we make for home. Leaving a cloaky at the rear, I wanted to see what they did.

Sure enough, the 2 proteus followed us one hole further, then started scanning. I knew more were around, and I know they've seen our entire fleet - because I've made sure of it ;-) So we went home, seeing no more coming. Then the proteus finds our system, and we move to the hole. Same fleet, less a Legion, swap for dramiel. 2 proteus land, and 1 hole away, Adhoc begins to mass up. The proteus jumps, I cross jump 3 ships to see if they bring it, and they do. In glorious excess. Roll

How about.... if you see a fleet....and you want to fight but you're outnumbered, don't rush home and reship into a bigger, badder fleet that's guaranteed to crush your opposition.

It's ok if your intention is all out victory... that's fine, but don't be sore if the other fleet isn't stupid enough to engage. But if you want to fight, bring a similar group and let's see who fares better. If you can't do that, and need to escalate, don't get bitchy about it in local when the others say "no", and go home. I really tried to have a straight up convo about it in local, but I guess the only thing they were interested in was clear victory. Well, Adhoc... Hope you enjoyed the game today. Would have much prefered a good fight, but I'm not gonna play that game, because if I go reship and bolster numbers, you wouldn't fight either. And I wouldn't blame you. Here's my convo in local:

~ snip ~

There's no place for that. Wanna know the fleet comps?
US: 2x Astarte, Loki, Proteus, Tengu, Vigi, Falcon, Legion, phobos and 2x guardians.
They bring 2x Bhaal, 3x Abso, Rook, Falcon 4x guardian, brutix, 2x legion, TFI, Crow, 2x proteus, tengu to counter.

Here's the key: M Thomas > next time don't get discouraged so easily, we only had like 8 when we were ready to go but then y'all ran off, in the 30 minutes it took to find you, people naturally log on, nothing to be done about it

Ok, if you had 8, and we had 11, that's pretty close. I woulda engaged if I were in your position. Just because someone has a thousand man alliance doesn't mean there's a 100 man fleet waiting to gank you. If you're unsure, just ask. What ever happened to that? We used to do it in sov, why can't it work in WH?

The lesson here, is if you wanna fight, rely on your skills, not on numbers. Could we have brought in another 30? Sure. But that'd be dumb because then they wouldn't fight.

I played my part guys, I kept same fleet, minus 1 legion swap for dram. I'm appealing for some sense of reason here. This is a good example of what not to do. Rest of you can judge for yourselves. If you want fights, don't do this. I'll engage shorthanded, and even outgunned. Anyone who knows me understands that well. But bitching about the sad state of pvp, and I go give everyone the benefit of the doubt and try one, it falls flat.

I'm gonna go where I knew I'll get a fight every time, with no guaranteed victory. I got caps to go wack with kestrels, don't have time for this BS.


You can't be part of a huge entity like tlost and then be buttsore when someone else decides to bolster their numbers before starting an engagement, especially when they've seen your fleet ALREADY outnumbers theirs. Fair enough, in this situation you'd shown your entire hand and the initial 8v11 isn't too unreasonable, but they couldn't know that was your entire fleet, and assuming it wasn't (based on transmission losts size) and getting a few more ships isn't some despicable act of cowardice or blobbing or whatever.



Tobiaz
Spacerats
#139 - 2012-10-16 09:46:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Jack Miton wrote:

Finally, everyone now knows how effective dreads are against subcaps so even the large players almost never engage each other in the enemy's home system due to blap dreads.


Big ships being effective against smaller ships is one of the biggest balance issues in EVE.

Terrorfrodo wrote:
Some interesting posts here.

I noticed, or think I noticed, a curious thing: In the past days, when Eve-kill was down (it probably still is), and even Battleclinic was often down or too slow to use, I had the impression that more people engaged us than usual. I myself was frustrated when I couldn't check out potential targets for their pvp history, but usually I then thought "ok let's just engage them".

Now this obviously will not work for people everyone already knows and fears without having to look them up, but I get the feeling that a good killboard record is hurting one's chances to get fights. Maybe we should all start over, make new, smaller corps and don't post any kills publicly from now on *g*


Nice example of the 'perfect intel' problem.

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Oxandrolone
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2012-10-18 01:20:48 UTC
MWBartko wrote:
If we could moon mine in WHs people would fight for them. Moons are the answer.


we all just got checkmated, discussion over lol.

People seem to have turned this isnto a slagging match, talking about specific corps, specific engagements. This was not the intention of the thread.

The intention was to highlight that cap escalations are basically unkillable if they choose to be. In nullsec there is a continuous arms war of fleet dotrines adapting to beat each other. In wormholes armor T3's are so good that everyone uses them almost exclusively. To this day we have not seen an effective counter to them. Fozzie or one of the other devs has talked about nerfing T3's [citation needed] and tbh i cant wait.

Its so boring to fly the same ships but they are simply the best ships. Low mass, high resits, lots of utility slots and can incorporate neuts and ECM that can stay on grid due to high resists.

I still think the emptyness combined with a lack of difference between wormholes means there are very few conflict drivers. Also due to T3's being the best ship which cost atleast 600m but usually 1bil+ people dont want to fight unless they have an overwealming advantage.