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Wormholes

 
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The sad state of WH PvP
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Nex apparatu5
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2012-10-10 13:29:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nex apparatu5
People keep going on and on about how caps are "invulnerable" during escalations. Seems like any decent pvper could be cloaked on top of you, decloak and scram you before you even knew he was there, especially with lack of local. Even if you knew they were coming, you still have siege/triage to deal with.

Can anyone tell someone with little-no experience what exactly is being talked about? Seems like it has something to do with logging off
Papiranti robcki
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2012-10-10 13:53:02 UTC
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-10-10 14:09:05 UTC
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
People keep going on and on about how caps are "invulnerable" during escalations. Seems like any decent pvper could be cloaked on top of you, decloak and scram you before you even knew he was there, especially with lack of local. Even if you knew they were coming, you still have siege/triage to deal w

The methods he described circumvent all of that the majority of the time. However, overly safe cap escalations are the result of preparation, investment, and refined technique (but is easy once you have the means and knowledge). As much as I like seeing caps die, eviction is still an option if anyone really wants to hamper someone's farming, albeit temporarily.

Most of the people saying W-Space pvp is fine (and i don't necessarily disagree) are from C4s and below, and I'm sure that's the case there. C6s are probably ok since you can roll through every system in a day. It's really just C5s that seem to be empty or populated by these cap escalating bears. When we finally run into a C5 pvp group we get the previously discussed issues of trying to gain an advantage that often leads to stalemates.

TL;DR W-Space pvp is fine but C5s are lonely
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#84 - 2012-10-10 14:58:06 UTC
Ace Secunda wrote:
There are a lot more people in WH's than there where when I started out and a lot more fights to be found, we are not having any issues.

Since you are based in a hole with static C3... do you find most fights in your static, or do you often scan longer chains?

In other words, do you collapse until the C3 offers up some targets, or do you explore even seemingly empty C3s to look for more connections?

I ask because we collapse a lot and I'm not sure if it's the best way. If you collapse often enough, you'll find some ratter to gank, but maybe there is a higher chance to find an actual fight in other systems, behind the C3. Because C3s very rarely have more than two active residents.

.
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#85 - 2012-10-10 17:08:28 UTC
C5s are fine. Chain-rolling is nice but it's ******* lazy. Scan down the pipe. Also, are we talking about catching caps escalating or PvP, because... you know that's not the same, right? If we can manage to find fights, so should you. This thread is ******* silly.
Lou Sanus
Doomheim
#86 - 2012-10-10 17:36:28 UTC
To the people claiming they are getting fights in WHs, your killboards tell a different story Roll
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#87 - 2012-10-10 18:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Nash MacAllister
Lou Sanus wrote:
To the people claiming they are getting fights in WHs, your killboards tell a different story Roll


I call BS on behalf of TL. Our numbers consistently support our statements of being able to find and kill targets.

http://tl-eve.com/kb/

http://whkills.info/stats/?m=9&y=2012

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Lou Sanus
Doomheim
#88 - 2012-10-10 19:05:01 UTC
I don't see many fights. Just a lot of ganks. Plus it looks like more than half of your kills are in k-space... and 26% are structures.
Utsen Dari
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2012-10-10 19:36:43 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Rather that whine about your T3 fleet not being able to gank someone in their PVE carrier, i would rather CCP add more features that make people want/need to fight aggressors.

The introduction of POCO's was a potentially good way to force the wormhole owner to fight you but in reality, why would anyone field a fleet to defend something that cost 100 million isk?

I like the idea of being able to upgrade a wormhole system (e.g. more sites, better PI and the ability to create a wormhole) and if CCP were to introduce this mechanic, it could be done similar to the POCO system where you anchor this new system upgrade device to a celestial (e.g. the sun). Just like to POCO's anyone could come along and attack this structure but the difference would be that this structure costs billions to construct.

Either way, something needs to be added to wormholes as, i feel, it's starting to get stale.


As I see it the big trouble with infrastructure as a PvP target, in a wormhole, is this:
* There must always be a time gap between when the structure is attacked and when it can be finally erased from the system. This is entirely reasonable because the defenders have jobs, have to sleep, etc and can't be expected to be online 23-7.
* Wormholes collapse naturally in a shorter time than this time gap.
* Therefore the attacker must perform complex logistics and/or organization to finish off that infrastructure, none of which involves shooting things.

I don't think the big problem with POCOs is that they only cost 100m isk; I think the problem is that it still takes longer than a connection lifetime to destroy this wimpy 100m isk thing. Thanks to the timing thing, attacking a POCO is not really a credible threat and the sensible defender option is to wait until the attacker gets bored and cycles their connection.

It would be awesome if there existed some piece of hardware one could hit that could be killed inside a single wormhole lifetime, wasn't too dealbreaking for the defenders as to prompt them to start self-destructing if it dies, but annoying enough to set back up that they might come out to defend it while it was being shot. Like, mini-beacons that cause more anoms to form, require ice products to build, but don't have any reinforce timers or something.
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#90 - 2012-10-10 19:37:33 UTC
Lou Sanus wrote:
I don't see many fights. Just a lot of ganks. Plus it looks like more than half of your kills are in k-space... and 26% are structures.


Well, then clearly it is a matter of opinion because anyone who actually fights knows that what is on the kill can be far from what was involved in the fight. Please explain your exact criteria for the statements you have made such as what you feel "real" PVP entails versus a gank, or what percentage of our kills should occur in w-space. Also, nice that you base your reply regarding POS percentage on a single partial month. Please take the time to do some actual checking prior to making claims about what you think you know.

I also find it laughable that you felt the need to create an alt to post in this topic. Care to post with your main?

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Utsen Dari
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2012-10-10 19:47:01 UTC
A "gank" is often just a fight done right, where your scouts got more intel than the other guy and then your fleet fought well enough that you lost no ships, so none of the enemies who escaped appear on the report. That's like, the goal outcome, right? Kill the enemy, lose no ships. If it looks even on the KB, something went wrong on both sides!
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#92 - 2012-10-10 19:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Fremen
You want "fair" PvP? Do tournaments. You won't find it every time in Eve. Also, post on your main? Maybe then we can know who thinks a killmail tells everything of a fight. Most PvP in Wspace is a gank or gank-gone-bad. Consensual PvP is hard to come by, but when we find it, it makes all our efforts to find it very well worth it, no matter what the outcome.
0NADA0
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#93 - 2012-10-10 21:33:00 UTC  |  Edited by: 0NADA0
Utsen Dari wrote:

As I see it the big trouble with infrastructure as a PvP target, in a wormhole, is this:
* There must always be a time gap between when the structure is attacked and when it can be finally erased from the system. This is entirely reasonable because the defenders have jobs, have to sleep, etc and can't be expected to be online 23-7.
* Wormholes collapse naturally in a shorter time than this time gap.
* Therefore the attacker must perform complex logistics and/or organization to finish off that infrastructure, none of which involves shooting things.


yeah, i completely agree...

wormholes should have at least 96 hours timers, must have at least 10b mass with at least 3b allowance to jump through at a time. there should be also one wh in each system which will regenerate its mass 1b per hour so that people can bring even more ships if someone is too lazy to perform complex logistics because that's just boring.

we should be also able to cyno jump through whs, use jump clones and refit T3 subsystems inside because we feel just withheld without these possibilities.

i would also suggest to ccp to generate wh maps each time a new wh is spawned because it is just stupid to code our own charting tools.

sleepers... they are just too hard to handle sometimes, so there should be some easier sleeper spawns (preferably soloable) with the same profit and even bounties. remove sleepers neuting, jamming and all that stuff because it is just too hard! sleepers ai should also be nerfed.

planets in whs are just not profitable enough. i think that profit should be at least doubled and less clicking should be involved. and all those moons in whs, just sitting there!! my god, why can't we implement moon mining?? also, ice belts would be a nice addition in wormholes!

one more thing which would make whs more populated is to make a trading hub wormhole (or even few of them) so we don't have to look for hi sec exits every day if we want to buy something fancy such as quafe t-shirts for which i had to scan 10 whs in chain to buy it. and why the hell do i have to bring all the stuff i want to sell to k-space when this simple thing as a wh-hub would be so much convenient? i don't even want to start to write about contracting... oh man!
there should be at least few npc agents in those hubs so when you are just bored, you can speak with him and go do some missions or something instead spinning a ship in pos...

wh factional warfare also... oh, there could be soooo much more pvp if we have something like factional warfare inside!

i am shocked that no one suggested claiming sovereignty in wormholes, because if we make a citadel out of the wh, isn't it ours anyway?? ccp, please take a look at this issue...

yeah, in general, wh mechanics sucks! i don't know why ccp even create wormholes when so many dissatisfied people live inside... we feel like outcasts, even more than jove people :(

seriously, ccp... i mean, like... pffff...

p.s. whkills.info stats is (unfortunately) still not the best reference for tracking wh kills...

TL;DR
ccp, we didn't want your wh mechanics anyway...


wait, why this topic isn't locked yet??
Utsen Dari
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2012-10-10 21:54:34 UTC
That is a lot of words to say "I think wormspace PVP is just fine the way it is"Lol
0NADA0
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-10-10 22:05:46 UTC
Utsen Dari wrote:
That is a lot of words to say "I think wormspace PVP is just fine the way it is"Lol


yeah i know =P
don't you think that 5 pages of nonsense isn't a lot for saying the opposite?

i'm still voting for that trading hub idea nevertheless =)
Alisyana
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-10-11 03:21:23 UTC
I've watched these threads with amusement for the past few weeks. Complaining there's no fights to be had, caps are too hard to kill, everyone blobs, blah blah blah.

I've got one thing to say: GTFO then.

It's really simple... quit your whining on the damn boards, log in and play the game. Get out and locate stuff to kill. I've got a list of crap to blast that's so f'ing big I'm having trouble finding enough time to squeeze it in, because every time I set up, another juicy opportunity comes along and I gotta go do that because it's "now". Lately I've crushed so many systems I've lost track of who's who, and why we rolled there in the first place. The wallet is filling up, folks taking nice paydays, and keeping everyone in the bling.

Caps hard to kill? Puleeeeezzzee, there's so many to gank I'm trying to come up with new and innovative fun ways to do it, because it's so damn easy. Maybe next I'll use noobships, ffs. System hits? There's so many cake systems laying around I gotta take a break from shooting towers. Hell, last one we brought in a Rorq and a few orcas, and some haulers to get on the KM too. Why? Why the hell not?

So while all you Nancy's are sitting on the forums while you POS spin, I'm workin it. Pretty soon it'll be you, if you sit around long enough.

**Definition of "SD" (Self Destruct) = "It's like running up to someone to kick them in the balls, they see you and proceed to kick themselves in the balls, and then laugh at you for denying someone a chance to kick them in the balls." ** - Celery Man
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#97 - 2012-10-11 04:47:06 UTC
Anyways back on topic. Chain rolling static usually does not yield as much PVP as it is to scan down long wormhole chains.

Look at WHkills and you'll see plenty of capital kills and etc. One reason why its harder to find pvp is that wormholes are the least

inhabited of all of EVE.

Even during summer we found plenty of kills, you just have to search deeply, after its deep space.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-10-11 05:10:43 UTC
I think the main thing is that we need to get more people in w-space.
Especialy in c5's.
More people is more chances to get fights.
So how are we going to change that?

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Keno Skir
#99 - 2012-10-11 05:55:43 UTC
Deminision wrote:
Oxandrolone wrote:

Recently we come up against people who wont engage us with 2x our numbers and in their hole

You (Elysian) should tell them about that time you guys were 2x more than us in your hole and didnt engage while we were killing your tower and stealin your loot :)


Burn.

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Ace Secunda
Element Extractors
#100 - 2012-10-11 08:06:41 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Ace Secunda wrote:
There are a lot more people in WH's than there where when I started out and a lot more fights to be found, we are not having any issues.

Since you are based in a hole with static C3... do you find most fights in your static, or do you often scan longer chains?

In other words, do you collapse until the C3 offers up some targets, or do you explore even seemingly empty C3s to look for more connections?

I ask because we collapse a lot and I'm not sure if it's the best way. If you collapse often enough, you'll find some ratter to gank, but maybe there is a higher chance to find an actual fight in other systems, behind the C3. Because C3s very rarely have more than two active residents.


Whatever we want to do at the time, sometimes we collapse until we find something and C3's take about 3 minutes to close so thats an easy way but we find you get better fights if you have a scan around, 8 times in 10 the static C3 kills will be carebears which while sometimes nice for the wallet doesn't offer any challenge, we prefer looking for the other WH PvP or combat ready corps who may put up a fight.

Usualy in peak times though you dont have to loook for long to find something to explode.