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The sad state of WH PvP

Author
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-10-08 02:10:09 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:
ramblings


I think you'll find that almost everyone who lives in WHs will tell you that mechanics wise, WHs are one of the best things CCP ever put into the game.
The things you listed as negatives are the entire point and the best parts about WHs.

There is no Bob.

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Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-10-08 02:54:11 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Noisrevbus wrote:
ramblings


I think you'll find that almost everyone who lives in WHs will tell you that mechanics wise, WHs are one of the best things CCP ever put into the game.
The things you listed as negatives are the entire point and the best parts about WHs.


this
Sandslinger
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-10-08 03:35:34 UTC
Oxandrolone wrote:
Anyone who has ever tried to kill capitals escalating knows about these problems.

There are 2 major causes of this im not gonna list them here to give bears any more advice but anyone who has tried to kill them knows what they are, 1 of them is being fixed in the winter update thankfully but this is still not for months.

I can see why many PvP'ers leave for NS, why verge do NS roams all the time because there are so few targets in WH's, almost nobody wants to fight. Recently we come up against people who wont engage us with 2x our numbers and in their hole wormhole where they can field multiple caps. We chain collapse for hours and hours every day. Often 4-6 hours a day and most days we find nothing other than a gas miner.

The isk farmers know they cannot be touched. If their wormhole gets invaded they just move to another one, there is almost limitless amounts of empty C5's and C6's. There is no reason to invade somwons wormhole other than not liking them due to the emptyness. There should be some reason that makes some wormholes better than others, some reason to invade other than saying "i dont like you"

Some wormholes should have multiple statics, amazing PI, higher chance of sleepers sites spawning, better gas sites, better roids or anything that makes them worth fighting over. In nullsec its worth fighting so systems can be taxed, to get better moon minerals etc. In wormholes people only fight for short bursts of fun but there is nothing long term to do here apart from print isk without risk.


I agree that PVE Aggro timer does need to be increased and it shouldn't be possible to play with grid mechanics as easily as it is. This is a failing from CCP's side.

However as to the rest of your statements;

Finding pvp, one of the problems is that the small guys keep getting evicted before they get a chance to grow and thus there is just more and more humungous alliances in wormholes now.

Huge is of course relative some would say we are huge, and we would in turn say others are huge.
The point being that the entities that exist are just growing larger and larger and there is nothing to stop it.

Where before one entity clashing with another was fairly small fights where logistics and tactics really mattered they are growing to 0,0 size where all that matters is the DPS on field. and who can call targets the fastest. This in turn leads to even more numbers game as tactics is slowly removed. And also leads to people more unwilling to take fights.

As to your suggestions about some systems being better. Sorry but I think the ideas posted are really terrible and I will explain why.

As it is; An alliance can get kicked out of it's home, dust itself off, find a new hole and get started all over again without too much fuzz.
We have lived in both a wolf rayet and a magnetar and frankly i grew to love both holes equally for different reasons,
maybe next time a pulsar would be interesting.

However if there were holes that are better then the rest by a huge margin you will get the exact same scenario which 0,0 has seen. One power block manages to take them all and once they have them everyone wants to fly with them so over time they just grow larger and larger and larger, while the rest who can't compete constantly shrink until eventually things go completely stale and they suffer some sort of failcascade or they turn into complete elitists who forever more rule the minions.

Either scenario would make wormholes much much worse for pvp then they are










Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#24 - 2012-10-08 03:39:57 UTC
Leaving aside Nosirevbus' blather, I'm in faction warfare precisely because of what the OP said.

There problem with w-space is that to force someone to fight you have to bring caps, or invest hours and hours to threaten their infrastructure. This takes time, logistics, ISK investment in POSs, blah blah.

This then creates a timer, often coming out at an inconvenient time, which alllows for the batphone to ring, and since everyone is so starved of regular PVP they will turn up for guaranteed fights, the cascade of batphone gets out of control and you are faced with 30+ T3s versus your BS/BC/Logi gang.

So either you die in a futile expression of angst, or you logoffski and GTFO over the next few days, end result, wasted time and effort. Plus massive blue balls.

This is, as others have said, the inevitable result of power consolidation and pacts and alliances.

The thing is, it is impossible to go "roaming" w-space. In C5-6 space you chain collapse because your chains are linear. In C1-2 space you get branched trees and can access k-space systems to seach for other C1-3's. C3's, you inevitably have to head to k-space via your single static to beachcomb for other wormholes (or shoot people in lowsec or nullsec). In C4's you got trolled and should just move out.

Whichever way you go, you invest time in the act of rollling your connecion, or in beachcombing k-space and then probing out systems which are uninhabited 23.499/7, or both. Then, if you get spotted, the guys POS up and you are out of luck.

Solutions? More statics, or at least more transient wormholes.

I am also frustrated by the Quantum Flux Generator - it should be a great piece of nullsec infrastructure, but in reality, it is impossible to actually tell if the thing is working.
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#25 - 2012-10-08 04:58:02 UTC
It's the same situation in k-space, to be honest.

In order to force fights, really force them, you need to do some BS like grinding sov or threatening isk farming or some other bullshit thing. People don't have to fight you no matter where you are. Station games are just as prevalent, if not more, than POS games.

It's the numbers problem, mainly. As well as the price factor, as people have said. It's one thing to lose 20 battlecruisers, but if you're bringing 20 T3s you have to have a decent shot at winning.You can't in good conscience warp that fleet without eyes on, or some solid superior numbers to account for whatever may hit the fan, because you have to be ready for those 30-40 man fleets. Which with the numbers/coalition situation is getting more common by the day.
Kalel Nimrott
Caldari Provisions
#26 - 2012-10-08 05:30:35 UTC
EE cannot blob = WH pvp Broken

Bob Artis, you will be missed.

O7

Nnezu
Artificial Memories
#27 - 2012-10-08 05:42:08 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
okst666 wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
I
Hell, even my humble Tengu (which actually IS solo 98% of the time) rarely gets engaged in lowclass WHs when I find actives and try to pick fights unless they have hours to prepare the perfect counter, which then leads to me bailing as I'm not going to throw away billion ISK ships to people who outnumber me and are in ships they've spent 2 hours fitting out specifically to kill me.


IMO the cost of the ship does not really matter.
I understand what you mean but on the other hand - as a "WSpace dweller" who is doing it right, you are rich as **** and can easily afford 20 of those 1.5 Billion isk tengus.

Those ships are throw away ships just as the trashers in 0.0.


sure, even if you take ISK out of the equation, you can lose at most 1 T3 every 5 days, just to keep up with the subsystem skill training.
obviously just training subs back up is not viable.

T3s are not throw away ships, no matter how much ISK you have.


Which assumes you have nothing better to train instead as well. Even more fun this winter when you can no longer eject.


^ Actually in my humble opinion, this is the point of why most people, me included, don't go for a hopeless fight. If you come with two dozen T3's + guardians, and my group can field less than half of that, I have sadly no intention to fight. If they really do these changes to ejecting in a T3, I'd be very sadpanda.
afaik - regarding the topic - not flying in a huge blob all the time let's you get more fights ;)

or try 'I HAVE A HOSTAGE' in local. It's ridiculously easy to combat things down in W-space.
Nnezu
Artificial Memories
#28 - 2012-10-08 05:47:06 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:

I am also frustrated by the Quantum Flux Generator - it should be a great piece of nullsec infrastructure, but in reality, it is impossible to actually tell if the thing is working.


It actually does. It's just doesn't feel like nullsec cause you don't have 20 wormholes all the time, like for the anom upgrade. But you still have significantly more wormholes in a upgraded system compared to another system in your constellation.
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-10-08 06:37:08 UTC
Bitches gonna *****.

In my opinion the game is changing so everyone is adapting. Those who can not adapt will just fade away.

As for small gang PVP it can be found you just have to look for it in lower class WHs.

It is logical that small corporations or alliances will avoid fights with bigger ones as it usually means a loss.

I dont think that state of WH PVP is sad. It is natural progression.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#30 - 2012-10-08 08:49:38 UTC
Kalel Nimrott wrote:
EE cannot blob = WH pvp Broken


Who the hell wants to have to blob for pvp?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-10-08 11:49:56 UTC
Rather that whine about your T3 fleet not being able to gank someone in their PVE carrier, i would rather CCP add more features that make people want/need to fight aggressors.

The introduction of POCO's was a potentially good way to force the wormhole owner to fight you but in reality, why would anyone field a fleet to defend something that cost 100 million isk?

I like the idea of being able to upgrade a wormhole system (e.g. more sites, better PI and the ability to create a wormhole) and if CCP were to introduce this mechanic, it could be done similar to the POCO system where you anchor this new system upgrade device to a celestial (e.g. the sun). Just like to POCO's anyone could come along and attack this structure but the difference would be that this structure costs billions to construct.

Either way, something needs to be added to wormholes as, i feel, it's starting to get stale.
Hathrul
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-10-08 12:13:00 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:
When it comes to player mentality you'll see that it doesn't differ that much no matter where you go. If you decide to experience the outside world you'll see the same patterns repeat and it has very little to do with the price of ships or whatever you want to attribute (we have gangs, or camps, of the new improved tech one frigates now - who run at first sight of something uncertain or challenging).

When it comes to Wormholes i think the largest issue is that WH in their initial implementation was a bit of a hackjob. The ideal behind the mechanics is fair but the devil is in the details. It created a scenario where not only mass was limited as a general principle but where the entire subgame was separated from the casual interaction of other spaces and created just that, a subgame. The mechanics of the mass limitations do not only hinder more sizable groups to move vast resources through holes, but also equally sized groups or smaller groups which means the space is not visited by outsiders as frequently as it should be.

Tactics even emerged based on keeping any interaction out (i think RnK's third video installment provide quite a good picture of what i mean). The tedium, requirements and defensive tactics keep everyone out so WH have a certain knack for choking life out of itself. We could argue wether if it's too much to ask to bring a decent prober with any gang you send out, but at the end of the day it's yet another detail out of many that simply stifle interaction.

The shame is that our developers seem content with WH as the prototype for a "game within the game", and have continued in that direction while letting the core mechanics of the WH environment fester. I always belived WH was a temporary solution and prototype for scale-interaction mechanics intended for Dominion. Though we all know that story.


what the hell are you on about? you just mention every feature that makes us want to live in wh space and then tell us its bad and wrong........for your sake i do hope you dont live in wh space :S
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#33 - 2012-10-08 12:49:46 UTC
There's plenty of goodfights in lower class WHs, it's no surprise that caps and blobs make life boring.

Also, lol @ Noiserevbus, that was just blatantly clueless. Dude.

.

Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2012-10-08 12:55:44 UTC
Unfortunately i've found once people have ID'd your corp tag and are smart enough to look your killboard (or know who you are from your reputation) they are generally less inclined to fight.

People (in WH space or not) always want fights that they think they can win generally...

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant

SojournerRover
Explorer Corps
#35 - 2012-10-08 13:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: SojournerRover
Get over it!

Most the big alliances are really only half the size of what it is says they are. But that is still bigger than most of the corps that can sustain a higher class wromhole. People are banding together because of the threat of being invaded.

Why does everyone do that? Because there are certain alliances that all they do is kill towers. The most boring thing there is in WH space. They spend countless hours preparing for these stupid ops and then they think they are great because they could kill a tower. How often do these operations actually turn into PVP? 1 out 20 if your lucky.

You also have the alliances that plan invasion ops not with the intent to evict but with visions of grandeur that this will be the epic battle they have all been working towards. This is the one! Then once they get in they discover in very short order that this alliance has called that alliance and that alliance has called this alliance and it becomes the very same thing that everyone has been complaining about, a standoff!

So you end up with Norcorp calls AHRM. Talocan calls Transmission lost, EE calls a couple as well. Just take a look around you, everyone is so afraid of the big blob they have to make their own. That is just survival and you are not going to be able to change that. It is a fact of life in WH space now, So get over it!

You want to make an impact on the Game?
Then everyone band together and use your knowledge of WH's and invade 00. Take over some systems, get a foothold and then put your foot where the sun don't shine!

Small PVP ops in higher class WH's no longer exists. The standoffs are the mainstay and only 1 out 20 invasions will escalate into anything epic!

[b][u]ROVER[/u] (REDRUM)[/b]

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#36 - 2012-10-08 13:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
I've said this before (during Boo Steps terrible endorsement of nerfing lower class wormholes into the ground) and I'll say it again: Give us a reason to actually fight over specific wormholes other than just grudges against X because they said Y about your mom. More variation in connection types, rebalance the system effects so there aren't one or two that are universally considered useless, etc.
SojournerRover
Explorer Corps
#37 - 2012-10-08 13:58:41 UTC
IF you are waiting for CCP to change it. Good luck!

[b][u]ROVER[/u] (REDRUM)[/b]

Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-10-08 14:26:59 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Rather that whine about your T3 fleet not being able to gank someone in their PVE carrier, i would rather CCP add more features that make people want/need to fight aggressors.

The introduction of POCO's was a potentially good way to force the wormhole owner to fight you but in reality, why would anyone field a fleet to defend something that cost 100 million isk?

I like the idea of being able to upgrade a wormhole system (e.g. more sites, better PI and the ability to create a wormhole) and if CCP were to introduce this mechanic, it could be done similar to the POCO system where you anchor this new system upgrade device to a celestial (e.g. the sun). Just like to POCO's anyone could come along and attack this structure but the difference would be that this structure costs billions to construct.

Either way, something needs to be added to wormholes as, i feel, it's starting to get stale.

You didn't actually read the OP did you?


Kalel Nimrott wrote:
EE cannot blob = WH pvp Broken

Kalel, sometimes you say intelligent things, but this was not one of those times.

I really don't think anyone actually wants to blob, but most people prefer winning enough that they'll do it. If we could break up the big alliances and especially the coalitions, I think people would have a lot more fun. Unfortunately there's little motivation to do that. Why start a new corp or alliance when you can just join one.

Sandslinger made a good point that variety is good but if certain wormholes are distinctly better it will probably worsen the consolidation problem. Lack of population isn't the problem because I'd bet we have more people playing in wormholes than ever before. The problem is that people keep merging and just about everyone who posted in this thread has participated in that. We're all crapping in our own sandbox.
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#39 - 2012-10-08 14:44:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Nash MacAllister
All this talk about no fights. Fights in w-space are out there, it just depends on what you define a "fight" as. I have fun shadowing an Orca to Jita then back while critting its home Wh, then collapsing behind it with a Widow and stealing the ship and cargo when the pilot rage ejects. Lol. Ambushes can be extremely fun even when they take an hour to set up. 20 vs 20 fight is fun as well, but certainly more rare. Sometimes it is ganking a couple Drake or Tengu in a site with 3 or 4 cloaky T3. K-space wh diving can be tedious, but it can also be exciting. But, to each their own...

Fun is what you make it. There is so much variety out there and so many people that don't take basic precautions when in w-space. Some people fight, some people don't, and that is just human nature. But, as always, certain folks want every fight to be easy and epic, and that isn't what w-space is about IMHO. Please don't fix what isn't broken, more than enough of that going on already.

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...

Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#40 - 2012-10-08 14:45:34 UTC
"Anyone who has ever tried to kill capitals escalating knows about these problems." What?! People have become more aware and we're complaining about this?

"Recently we come up against people who wont engage us with 2x our numbers and in their hole wormhole where they can field multiple caps." Jesus... Look, the bigger you are, the more predictably suicidal an engagement with you becomes. Is there really a complaint here about a 400+ member alliance not getting good fights anymore? Do we need a metaphor to illustrate how silly this sounds?