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What does winter changes mean for Missioning?

Author
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#1 - 2012-10-04 21:01:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashterothi
Woo boy a lot of changes are happening soon. I have been mulling over what these mean to different people, and I realize a lot of them will impact mission runners in one way or another. Let us begin:

1) Changes to AI: Changes to AI have several possible impacts on mission runners, however the details are currently vague so some or all of the following may apply.

  • Less Ninja Salvagers as they will fear being popped by the rats/new criminal flag (more on that later)
  • Less gankers do to gankers possibly having to handle rats/new criminal flag (more on that later)
  • More attention will have to be paid to drones seeing as they may get shot
  • Salvaging in parallel to your mission will be likely unviable.
  • Bringing your low sp buddy in his thorax into your level 4 may no longer be viable.


2) Changes to criminal/suspect flags: Now people performing actions against us will make them free to be attacked by anyone

  • Less Ninja Looters/Gankers do to fear of reprisal by people other than the mission runner
  • The ability to have a defender on call who can actually engage and defend you if there is an attack, without dragging the runner into it.


3) Bounty system won't suck. We can now exact some form of revenge through bounties that won't be exploited to simply hand isk to our enemies. Not much more than that is known right now.

4) NPC Flag added to Crimewatch: Now fighting NPCs will exact the same 15 min no logoffsky timer as PVP does. However, the timer will no longer reset after a DC, this still means your ship will be in the mission for 15 min prior to disconnect. Many types of tanks could not handle 15 minutes of complete inaction depending on when the DC occurs.

5) Only can have 5 missions at a time. Probably wont have much impact, but for some it might.

In total I fear that these changes will cause the biggest threat to mission runners to be disconnecting do to failed internet. With the lessoned threat of other players, and a more sophisticated AI demanding attention, a loss of internet connection becomes the single most detrimental thing to the mission runner.
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-10-04 21:44:08 UTC
Is Salvaging a wreck created by another person now going to result in getting flagged? That's a pretty major change if so.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#3 - 2012-10-04 22:20:57 UTC
Nope sorry for the correction. Only if they steal will they be flagged, but the rats may still agress them.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-10-04 22:41:25 UTC
Ashterothi wrote:
Woo boy a lot of changes are happening soon. I have been mulling over what these mean to different people, and I realize a lot of them will impact mission runners in one way or another. Let us begin:

1) Changes to AI: Changes to AI have several possible impacts on mission runners, however the details are currently vague so some or all of the following may apply.

  • Less Ninja Salvagers as they will fear being popped by the rats/new criminal flag (more on that later)
  • Less gankers do to gankers possibly having to handle rats/new criminal flag (more on that later)
  • More attention will have to be paid to drones seeing as they may get shot
  • Salvaging in parallel to your mission will be likely unviable.
  • Bringing your low sp buddy in his thorax into your level 4 may no longer be viable.



We won't know until people can test but there are some very interesting things that could happen with the AI.

1. Ninja salvagers may need a tank
2. Gankers would need more of a tank (plenty of ganking happens in wormholes, that already have this AI)
3. Drones will have to be paid attention to. but the damage may be smaller. Right now there are plenty of missions where entire waves or groups will aggress. When an entire wave agresses your drones they die fast. But with this AI it may be more like a few ships switch aggression. So it may not be as bad.
4. Salvaging has always been hit or miss anyhow. For missions with waves you would have to wait until the last wave is out and aggressed first. For multi room missions the salvager can still follow one room behind. Maybe the viability of marauders will come back
5. Bringing a low SP friend has similar issues. A low SP friend now may get aggression at a new wave, or group, making them have to warp off. Again, like 3, entire waves may not switch aggression, but instead just a few ships. In which case that low SP friend might be able to tank it, or warp off.


Either way we don't know the true changes until we actually test them. Honestly I can see some potential upsides to the AI (especially having dealt with it in wormholes for the last year).
Joneleth Rein
#5 - 2012-10-05 00:27:25 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:


We won't know until people can test but there are some very interesting things that could happen with the AI.

1. Ninja salvagers may need a tank
2. Gankers would need more of a tank (plenty of ganking happens in wormholes, that already have this AI)



I really really hope this happens. I'm getting fed up of seeing tech 1 frigates and rookie ships. I really hope they up-size what they need for baiting someone.

As for the AI and target switching. As far as sleepers go they always hated ecm/logi e.t.c since as far as I know they do have some (emphasis on some) sort of threat mechanics. It's funny how easy you can make them hate you if start putting target paints or some sort of ECM. It's hard to manage holding their attention as the numbers go up but still. It didn't feel completely unpredictable in WHs. Unless they really randomize the choises in which case we'r all fair game :P

Spider Pig! Spider Pig! Does what a Spider Pig does.. Can he swing? From a web.. No he can't. He's a pig.

stoicfaux
#6 - 2012-10-05 01:42:58 UTC
Meh, not a lot should change for most solo mission runners. The increased drone aggro is probably the only real concern.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-10-05 04:26:02 UTC
If they make the AI smart to aggro drones that will pretty much make heavy drones useless in missions. I suspect sentry drones should still work because you can recall them instantly.

One thing about the Dominix that makes it popular is you can set drones out and let them kill things without much micromanagement. This makes up for it's rather weak DPS compared to the Mach or Nightmare. I don't AFK but when I'm tired and don't want to risk loosing my Mach to not paying attention I'll fly my Domi. Loosing a set of drones is still cheaper than loosing a ship so unless it just constantly attacks drones where I can't keep them out I'll probably still mission run with it.
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#8 - 2012-10-05 05:21:39 UTC
Am a bit concerned over the 15 minute NPC flag. Eve likes its random server drops and losing a 2 billion isk ship over it would not be fun at all. At least now if dropped we know are ships are going to go to warp.
Dilligafmofo
3WAYFOUNDATIONS
New Miner's Union
#9 - 2012-10-05 07:57:52 UTC
The need for assistance in Level 5 missions will increase. No more sending in a passive loki to tank them whilst glass cannons apply the DPS.


duch crystal
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#10 - 2012-10-05 11:20:35 UTC
Meh, LvL5 mission runners, if in a group prior to the new AI, won't notice the change much. Maybe only the need of 2 instead of 1 logistics.

Every Saint has a past, Every Sinner has a future Oscar Wild

Zaq Phelps
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-10-05 11:25:14 UTC
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Am a bit concerned over the 15 minute NPC flag. Eve likes its random server drops and losing a 2 billion isk ship over it would not be fun at all. At least now if dropped we know are ships are going to go to warp.



Your ship will attempt to warp. The blog says nothing about your ship not attempting to warp away. It's the same log off mechanic that exists for pvp now. However, once warped away it will take 15 minutes for it to disappear. This means that someone who is trying to gank you has ample time to probe you down and destroy your ship. It also means that your ship will stay put in the mission if it's warp scrambled or caught on a large collidable object where it can't get aligned.

Realistically, all it means is:

You need to kill scrambling frigates first (when respawn mechanics allow)
You need to stay aligned to a safe warpout point (safespot, station) if you need to bail out of the mission when practical
Use less expensive ships if you're truly uncomfortable

Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#12 - 2012-10-05 12:52:56 UTC
Zaq Phelps wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Am a bit concerned over the 15 minute NPC flag. Eve likes its random server drops and losing a 2 billion isk ship over it would not be fun at all. At least now if dropped we know are ships are going to go to warp.



Your ship will attempt to warp. The blog says nothing about your ship not attempting to warp away. It's the same log off mechanic that exists for pvp now. However, once warped away it will take 15 minutes for it to disappear. This means that someone who is trying to gank you has ample time to probe you down and destroy your ship. It also means that your ship will stay put in the mission if it's warp scrambled or caught on a large collidable object where it can't get aligned.

Realistically, all it means is:

You need to kill scrambling frigates first (when respawn mechanics allow)
You need to stay aligned to a safe warpout point (safespot, station) if you need to bail out of the mission when practical
Use less expensive ships if you're truly uncomfortable



Ah thanks, as long as they go to warp I am not concerned then, we always kill frigates first incase of such things. Too many times over the years we have seen the socket closed message.
Signal11th
#13 - 2012-10-05 13:53:50 UTC
Dilligafmofo wrote:
The need for assistance in Level 5 missions will increase. No more sending in a passive loki to tank them whilst glass cannons apply the DPS.





If anything these changes will make my lvl 5's easier. I wont have to worry about complete room aggro for my drones and can just concentrate on the main objective.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#14 - 2012-10-05 14:21:16 UTC
Zaq Phelps wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Am a bit concerned over the 15 minute NPC flag. Eve likes its random server drops and losing a 2 billion isk ship over it would not be fun at all. At least now if dropped we know are ships are going to go to warp.



Your ship will attempt to warp. The blog says nothing about your ship not attempting to warp away. It's the same log off mechanic that exists for pvp now. However, once warped away it will take 15 minutes for it to disappear. This means that someone who is trying to gank you has ample time to probe you down and destroy your ship. It also means that your ship will stay put in the mission if it's warp scrambled or caught on a large collidable object where it can't get aligned.

Realistically, all it means is:

You need to kill scrambling frigates first (when respawn mechanics allow)
You need to stay aligned to a safe warpout point (safespot, station) if you need to bail out of the mission when practical
Use less expensive ships if you're truly uncomfortable



Now that I think about it, you are probably right. That sounds a lot better then what the tinfoil was telling me.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-10-05 15:07:01 UTC
i'm curious about the aggro mechanic changes more than anything. if you have ever flown a drake in C1-C3, you know what a pain it is to keep your drones alive. if mission rat AI adapts this behavior, gallente gonna have a bad time.
frankly, i am already considering buying 10000 T1 drones and just abandoning them in each mission room like kittens on the freeway.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-10-05 15:13:38 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
i'm curious about the aggro mechanic changes more than anything. if you have ever flown a drake in C1-C3, you know what a pain it is to keep your drones alive. if mission rat AI adapts this behavior, gallente gonna have a bad time.
frankly, i am already considering buying 10000 T1 drones and just abandoning them in each mission room like kittens on the freeway.


They have already said it will not be sleeper AI and will not have near the same hate of drones.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-10-05 15:43:11 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
i am already considering buying 10000 T1 drones and just abandoning them in each mission room like kittens on the freeway.


I love it!
Josef Djugashvilis
#18 - 2012-10-05 16:05:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
My poor, poor, Navy Domi, seems like it is about to be consigned to the history bin of mission running.

Oh well, onwards and upwards.

Adapt or die.

Unfortunately, I am better at the dying than the adapting.

This is not a signature.

Govind
Parity Labs
#19 - 2012-10-05 17:07:17 UTC
Bad news for the AFK drone runner. Just another thing to watch for everyone else.

I like when my sentries get some aggro, less I have to tank. If they look like they are in any real pain I just pull them in and pop them back out. Even if the NPC still wants to shoot that same sentry they still have to target it again.

Yes, heavy drones will be more situational. Only use them on ships that come in to about 10km or less in case you need to pull them in. For anything further out, use sentries. Properly managed people shouldn't be loosing any heavy / sentry drones and if people kill the webifier NPCs then the lights and mediums should be able to escape if recalled in time as well.

I've always seen the ease with which EvE can be played while only partially paying attention to be one of its more negative sides. This is a game of spaceship battles. Even PvE fights should keep you engaged and paying attention.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-10-05 17:26:11 UTC
Govind wrote:
Bad news for the AFK drone runner. Just another thing to watch for everyone else.

I like when my sentries get some aggro, less I have to tank. If they look like they are in any real pain I just pull them in and pop them back out. Even if the NPC still wants to shoot that same sentry they still have to target it again.

Yes, heavy drones will be more situational. Only use them on ships that come in to about 10km or less in case you need to pull them in. For anything further out, use sentries. Properly managed people shouldn't be loosing any heavy / sentry drones and if people kill the webifier NPCs then the lights and mediums should be able to escape if recalled in time as well.

I've always seen the ease with which EvE can be played while only partially paying attention to be one of its more negative sides. This is a game of spaceship battles. Even PvE fights should keep you engaged and paying attention.



Sentries can tank surprisingly well.

Heavies always suck. I am always annoyed using them. Even now they grab aggro when a new wave spawns and you have to wait FOREVER for them to return.
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