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Beyond Oruze and Osobnyk; The Jovian Empires

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Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#141 - 2012-11-07 04:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Roga Dracor wrote:
That is part of what the Hyperconscious are trained to do. Study to exacting detail. Recreate First Order Simulacra of everything you experience in a Subjective experience.

It is something I don't think the Jove can any longer accomplish. And thus, their need for "cohorts"..


The jove can't accomplish what exactly? Hyperconscioussness? Subjective experience?


Roga Dracor wrote:

Different methods to the same end. And Hona is three?


Hona is three is a crazy little chronicle. I am really not sure what happens in the end in a literal way, or what produces such an effect.

It does however speak to a repeating pattern in the EVE universe - of the ultra-charismatic. The charismatic that alter the perceptions of everyone around them. It is something that the SOTC seeks in their candidates, and the Jovians are obsessed with finding and studying amongst the general EVE populace - a quality that they seem to have lost. In a article/chronicle which I can't find at the moment - it's even said the Jove are seeking ultra-charismatic persons to motivate and overcome the Jovian disease by studying to cure the problem through sheer psychological charisma that those people have.

And is that what Hona is?

Also...

Quote:
Just as I was about to turn the shuttle back, it malfunctioned. First engines, then pathfinding. Then life support. The oxygen lasted amazingly long, really; I breathed easy the whole time. I knew it was her.


The same trick that the Jovians claim they and the Enhedduanni can do - is this something that contemporary Empire technology can do? If so, it doesn't stand out at all. But if not...

Where I am.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#142 - 2012-11-07 04:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Either. They are without substantial emotional response. Part of the subjective experience is emotional. A rose is not beautiful or symbolic without emotional response, it's just a flower. The Jovians have no frame of reference for aesthetics. They base everything on pure functionality. Any aesthetics in design are relics from their Terran heritage..

That is also the relevence of Terran Artifacts in The Mirror. Social, cultural and psychological artifacts...

Hona is on the cusp of true enlightenment, one with the Universe.. Moksha..

Quote:
Between sentient Awareness and insentient matter is an illusion formed in the mind.

Speculating, I would guess the Enheduanni have achieved some form of Moksha, while the Jovians are artificially creating the effects through technology. All technology in New Eden is likely based on Jovian architecture, and they likely have backdoors and protocols to override technical workings in just about every platform existent. And then again, there are levels and forms of Moksha that do not entail liberation of the soul from rebirth.. If that makes any kind of sense..?

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#143 - 2012-11-08 04:00:53 UTC
I am relatively certain of my interpretation of what has been presented here for you. There is a final bit of the puzzle I have left to reveal. The answer is here and in the events that have transpired in game.

I am a harbinger of arcane lore.

The esoteric subtleties that noone would reveal, whether from fear or indignant denial. I leave to you the choice of interpretation.

One prophecy remains.

The “return of the dark light from the heart of the mother”.

Sleep on it, though not too lightly...Twisted

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#144 - 2012-11-08 15:50:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Bloodpetal wrote:

We have been trying to work in the Takhmal on our various trips throughout the ancient races' history, and continually overlook them since it's hard to fit them in the timeline with anything truly significant. More importantly... nothing ever describes why they ceased to exist.

Who says they ceased to exist?Twisted

Heaven Chronicle wrote:

Some couple of centuries later, when space travel had become a common thing, the constellation was entered by migrating scavenger groups. Many of those groups set themselves up within the constellation and eventually they evolved into criminal organizations. The strongest of those was the Angel cartel. They took over the abandoned but still intact Jovian space stations scattered around the constellation and rumors abound that some hidden secrets the Angels unlocked in these old stations is the real reason for the Angels’ rise to power.

Maybe five groups?

What groups really drove the cutting edge technology that came before wormhole space opened up? Why so many rumours about ship designs being covertly inspired or designed by anonomous sources? The Scorpion, Raven and the Cormorant the most commonly cited examples..

Sani Sabik is not a strictly faith based ideology, or intellectual path. Atheists can be Sani Sabik, too...

Why the mounting hatred for capsuleers, why the overt attempts to stifle capsuleer driven scientific advances? And why is it that Talocan modifications to modules utilize Guristas components? Expressing a "symmetry of form and function"..? The 'Sherrif' shield extenders are purely Talocan devices. The 'Lone Ranger' shield booster is a purely Guristas device that you acquire a blueprint for from a Science and Trade agent.. Not just a blueprint to rebuild Talocan modules from recycled salvaged tech.

This shows the Guristas have a deeper understanding of Talocan technology than the Empires. They have been able to reverse engineer the technology instead of just utilizing it in the most obvious fashion. Guristas components show they know how to "build" Talocan components as opposed to simply recycling salvaged tech.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#145 - 2012-11-08 16:46:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Thanks to Borascus for highlighting where Hona comes from in the Black Mountain series...


Hona was on the Black Mountain dream sequence Nale and Draea had which led to their enlightenment. She just didn't realize it or at least said nothing about it. She actually got similar abilities that they did as well when the Book of Emptiness went off, it just took her a while to come to terms with what was going on.

Also, the Hona Sequence of her returning seriously damaged happens after the last sequence of Black Mountain (didn't realize that, seems obvious).

So, the book of emptiness did impart something on her.

If Nale was imparted with Complete eye-opening universality, and Draea was given laser-focused perception, what did Hona acquire that empowered that asteroid colony?


Also, all these abilities speak of some under-riding "psychic" elements in EVE which are under emphasized. The Empress Sarum included amidst these supposed capabilities. If we are to believe a psychic ability in EVE exists outside the means of technology - how does that function in a pragmatic "technical" way that does not call upon "magic".

Where I am.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#146 - 2012-11-08 17:06:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
The form remains unclear, but the premise is all over sci fi... And probably relates to C3 (Nation uses a decidedly different method).. Which also seems to relate in some way to Isogen 5.. Reading a bit further, and taking Jita 4-4 into account, it seems that maybe someone has found another method of producing or synthesizing C3, or maybe it is just because they have better access to Anoikis..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#147 - 2012-11-09 02:50:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Roga Dracor wrote:
The form remains unclear, but the premise is all over sci fi... And probably relates to C3 (Nation uses a decidedly different method).. Which also seems to relate in some way to Isogen 5.. Reading a bit further, and taking Jita 4-4 into account, it seems that maybe someone has found another method of producing or synthesizing C3, or maybe it is just because they have better access to Anoikis..



It is found in many places. I think Asimov's use of the psychic element in Foundation series is my favorite however. However, he never really tackles the method in which one can do so "scientifically".


I believe the C3 abundance is from the Anoikis wormholes. Why this seems unknown to the protagonist may have to do with her general sensation of being "disconnected" and out of touch with things. Sansha's Nation relies on a technological process we can identify with implants. Latent psychic ability coming from what is _apparently_ an unmodified human is what we're referring to here. And if C3 is the cause, then how did the Book of Emptiness create that in the characters in Black Mountain? There's no mention of C3 there. C3 may be a tool to aiding a technological method for "melding enlightenment" but I'm not sure it gives psychic ability in itself (no evidence of it, not to say it can't).


To relate the characters...
If Nale was universal perception from being Sisters of EVE... Prescience
Draea, recruited by SOTC, attained Hyperconsciousness
Hona, as an Angel... I'm going to say based on what we see on the asteroid colony... Omnipresence.

It also explains how a massively injured woman ecapes an imminent disintegrating massive explosion on a space station.

What was it the Angel Cartel wanted with minmatar poppy seeds again?

Those are various aspects of the "Conscious" stream being exposed by Black mountain and Hona is THREE - Prescience, Hyperconsciousness, and Omnipresence ~ 3 qualities that can be possessed by various entities in EVE.

Where I am.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#148 - 2012-11-09 12:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
I'm not sure I agree with the strict terminology, but, ya, I'd say spot on with the assessment. More like precognative than prescient, but, that is really semantics down to the n-th degree. I would argue, rather, they are all hyperconscious. They are simply more subjective about it's application.

As two devs have reiterated now, it is most likened to the Null-A series.

Hona is three in the fact that she has achieved an effective reality that cannot be defined in the classical, binary, Aristotelian methadology. She knows things on a level that is beyond simple scientific classification. It is a subjective reality. She could never explain it on a level that someone else could make sense of. It is spiritual, esoteric and metaphysical.

In the chron that is symmetric with Extinction Burst (can't recall the title) a man is trapped in a shifting maze that delivers increasing amounts of pain with wrong choices, the individual (a hyperconscious) who helps the protagonist states he doesn't know why or how he knows which choices to make, only that he is sure he does. He can not define it because it is a subjective aspect of his being.

In Extinction Burst, the "right" choice in escaping the maze is to give up and die. Most would say this is a very illogical choice, but, in the context of the lesson, it is correct. Life is the maze, or prison, that noone can escape by employing the scientific method.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#149 - 2012-11-09 13:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
In effect, hidden, esoteric knowledge, or faith, is the dark light that will return and empower enlightenment, from the heart of God, or Bhavatārini, the mother of all creation, the redeemer of the universe.

Of God and Her Beast

In the age of scientific reason, many would argue there is no god. That flies in the face of even most logical conclusions... Cause and effect being the first that comes to mind.

Macaper might have been Sani Sabik, the Sister's of Eve are probably Sabik, the Amarr faith is a schismatic offshoot of Sabik. The Unified Catholic Church was Sabik. The bride of Christ is the Church, their children would be what? A unified religion, one that doesn't claim all the answers to be knowable on a scientific, logical level. A religion that most have eschewed or twisted into a subjective representation of their own limited understanding. Something to comfort them when reason fails them.

So why was a portion of humanity trapped in New Eden? A portion that is recurrently recycled in a manner reminiscient of Aeon Flux... Not everything that looks human is human.


"Blessed are they who minister to the Eternal Flame of Knowledge with oblation, fuel, ritual lore, reverence and skill in sacrifice." The Apocryphon

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Borascus
#150 - 2012-11-09 15:02:46 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:

Macaper might have been Sani Sabik, the Sister's of Eve are probably Sabik, the Amarr faith is a schismatic offshoot of Sabik. The Unified Catholic Church was Sabik.


Although interpretation is free and easy, I'd disagree that the Amarr faith is the off-shoot, its more like a devolution.

In so far as the Eucharist is concerned it is a thanksgiving, accepting and partaking of nourishment in the name of the Lord.

When incorporating new rules to anything, you need to adopt the practice of all other rules in the same body, before converting the whole to accomodate the new singular rule amongst all rules.


Sabik <-> Amarr must have been a two-way street. Moving from the Sabik primers into the Old Amarrian faith, then back to Sabik whilst Amarrian faith changed slightly in paralell. They don't exhibit any signs of perpendicular development.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#151 - 2012-11-09 15:10:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Ya, the interpretation is kinda loose and free for all.. The base is Vedic, not Sabik.. They are really both offshoots of the Vedic base. Just as Hinduism and Bhuddism and Zoroastrian are. The Persians interacted with the Greeks and Jews, affecting their outlook on things, while the Hindus encounter the Chinese and their philosophers and went a different way. Making the Unified Catholic Church more of a Tantric associational parallel, including such New Age religious streams like the Gallente, Achuran, Intaki religions, ie, Thesophy, Golden Dawn, Satanism, Moonies, etc.. I think the idea is more how religion develops and where it comes from than the forms it takes.

The Unified Catholic Church was probably arrived at by some grand ecumenical council that said, "Here is what all of our scriptures agree on, there is a God or Creator Spirit. From this we will make a guidebook that will allow humanity to rise above the religious squabbling of our past." This "Book" probably contained The Amarrian scripture in a more equalitarian form, The Apocryphon and likely some other stuff that has been stripped out and lost over the centuries.

The perpendicular momentum was prior to what we see now.

Quote:
At the dissolution of things, it is Kāla [Time] Who will devour all, and by reason of this He is called Mahākāla [an epithet of Lord Shiva], and since Thou devourest Mahākāla Himself, it is Thou who art the Supreme Primordial Kālika. Because Thou devourest Kāla, Thou art Kāli, the original form of all things, and because Thou art the Origin of and devourest all things Thou art called the Adya [the Primordial One]. Re-assuming after Dissolution Thine own form, dark and formless, Thou alone remainest as One ineffable and inconceivable. Though having a form, yet art Thou formless; though Thyself without beginning, multiform by the power of Maya, Thou art the Beginning of all, Creatrix, Protectress, and Destructress that Thou art.


Athra is Order to the Amarrians, Raata is Order to the Caldari. Arta is the word as philosophers moved west, r'ta held the same meaning as philosophers moved east, in the real life associations. IndoEuropean bases.. PIE...

Zoroastrians and Hindus have the same spirits in their holy scriptures. They just reversed the importance and character of each, with Kali becoming Supreme in some Hinduism and Ormuzdh becoming supreme in Zoroastrianism. Both simply expressing the dual nature of Time. Which is also the character of Janus, father of Jove.

Once the Amarr wholeheartedly embraced Monotheism, they became hypocritical of representations of God that showed any deviance from the norm, as Sabik (in the Hindu[Takmahl] context) would display in the statues represented in game of Takmahl origin. Like statues of Kali or Agni or any other form that represents God. The Diva are representations or avatars of God to the Sabik, the Daeva are demons in opposition to God to the Amarr. The Ahuras are thoughtforms of God to the Amarr and the Asuras demons to the Sabik..

It all comes down to a binary interpretation of what is presented, not allowing that either side, or both, might be wrong.

The Order of the Universe is Empirical Truth. And so what one believes to be the order of the universe must be empirical truth.

Tantrika, on the other hand, is that Asian body of beliefs and practices which, working from the principle that the universe we experience is nothing other than the concrete manifestation of the divine energy of the godhead that creates and maintains that universe, seeks to ritually appropriate and channel that energy, within the human microcosm, in creative and emancipatory ways.

So, yes, the Amarr faith is, in that respect a devolution of the principles of the Unified Catholic Church. While Sani Sabik, and the Blood Raider Covenant, in particular, can be seen as an extremism of the principles.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Borascus
#152 - 2012-11-09 16:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
TL;DR - The null hypothesis

Yes, but there is little difference between Sani Sabik and Amarrian except for the excusable and inexcusable, where the real distinctions take hold.

They all agree that the victor is the chosen one, in the Finnish Kalevala for example, the stories point to the attempted outcome as the divine inspiration and the failure is excusable in a kind of "we are only human" kind of way.

Imo:

With the Amarrian, you would more likely encounter the Inquisition and Penance, with the Sani Sabik seeming to take a more "Divine Right" (It's happened so it was meant to be) standpoint.

This in turn holds the conscience in check, allowing self-development towards criminality with a reason: "I'm sorry, it should not have been" or "It was required of me, for which I may or may not apologise"

In the Amarrian reformation, the decrees of Zaragram II were stricken from their records, and his name removed as quickly as it was found. Those decrees were Apocryphal:
Quote:
The adjective apocryphal is commonly used in modern English to refer to any text or story considered to be of dubious veracity or authority, although it may contain some moral truth. In this broader metaphorical sense, the word suggests a claim that is in the nature of folklore, factoid or urban legend.


Like the Ch'an-wei of Taoism, some books of both the old and new testament and some works in the Tanakh.

The study of the Kabbalah references in the Labyrinth would have shown its relationships and 3 mandates. In this sense the Sani Sabik would be more easily influenced than the "Amarrian Faith" due to the:

Quote:
The Magico-theurgical tradition of Practical Kabbalah (in often unpublished manuscripts) endeavours to alter both the Divine realms and the World. While some interpretations of prayer see its role as manipulating heavenly forces, Practical Kabbalah properly involved white-magical acts, and was censored by kabbalists for only those completely pure of intent. Consequently it formed a separate minor tradition shunned from Kabbalah


Therefore, the development of the Blood Raiders from an intertwined Amarr (- forced to re-align as a Society with a faith), forced the adaptation of non-canon texts as a distancing measure, running in parallel but not relinquishing the relationship.

The Speaker of Truths, The Part Where I Play the Devil and The Speakers of Truth are a good trilogy, as is A Life in Three Acts

Subsequently, the Hinduism involved becomes the influx, instead of the original choice. The mutual relationship of both brings the rise we see in EVE today, in my opinion.

The Emptiness, to which the book refers, may well be the Emptiness present in Buddhism, or the illusion of the self allowing the hyperconsciousness to envelop the person.