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Beyond Oruze and Osobnyk; The Jovian Empires

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Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#21 - 2012-10-06 05:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyke Mossari
Pottsey wrote:

The book pretty much said ...


No it is more subtle than that go back and reread it.

There also needs to be generally more caution over identity, people can have multiple identities.

One persom might be Yorkshire man, Scientist, British, European and Scientist.,

his neighbour might consider himself, Conservative, English, Christian and Not European.

another neighbour might consider himself Scotish Presbyterian, Socialist and European.

A foreign observer might Consider them all British and History could classify use all part of the "Western Cultural".
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#22 - 2012-10-06 05:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyke Mossari
Borascus wrote:


Its the difference between Freemasons being large clubs, in the UK at least, with their own lodges and numbers like Lodge 1 in Hertfordshire or Lodge 147 in Warrington, and being the: omnipotent majestic 12..... thousand.... they are accredited with being for imaginative purposes.



This idea is important, consider America today, the only true super power left in the world and they have more Bogeymen than ever, some real, some imagined.
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#23 - 2012-10-06 06:55:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyke Mossari
Consider the Wet Grave Epilogue what is described is similar to Locked-in Syndrome rather than a Persistent Vegetative state.

I'm also wondering what those Jovian treatments might be.
Borascus
#24 - 2012-10-06 10:37:24 UTC
Wyke Mossari wrote:
Consider the Wet Grave Epilogue what is described is similar to Locked-in Syndrome rather than a Persistent Vegetative state.

I'm also wondering what those Jovian treatments might be.


Hell yea.
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
#25 - 2012-10-06 15:41:55 UTC
Wyke Mossari wrote:
Pottsey wrote:

The book pretty much said ...


No it is more subtle than that go back and reread it.

There also needs to be generally more caution over identity, people can have multiple identities.

One persom might be Yorkshire man, Scientist, British, European and Scientist.,

his neighbour might consider himself, Conservative, English, Christian and Not European.

another neighbour might consider himself Scotish Presbyterian, Socialist and European.

A foreign observer might Consider them all British and History could classify use all part of the "Western Cultural".

I did re read it and it was subtle about the Jove being dead apart from two parts. One bit was the Amaar scientist saying the Jove are extinct the other was the Concord internal meeting where they said flat out the Jove are dead.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#26 - 2012-10-10 14:46:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
If the Jove are truly dead and gone, shouldn't someone tell the guys at the Dust website..Blink

And if not, what kind of society did they evolve into, how far did they go to survive? How far will you go to survive?

When reading the above piece, please note the title, something I tried to stress, apparently not very successfully, in my own recent submission.. This is one of my favorite chronicles, btw..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-10-11 23:44:06 UTC
No Syncretic religion though please. In real life, religion is rarely syncretic and the idea is so overdone. Choose one church, one nation, not one giant ultra-church controlling everything.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#28 - 2012-10-13 20:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Ya,, that seems to be the player consensus, but, I think the unseen canon argues against it.. As many have said, CCP already has a good overview of the backstory.. Don't think player wishes enter into it much... As they shouldn't.. Take Dust as a good indication of what happens when CCP listens too intently to it's player base..Ugh

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Borascus
#29 - 2012-10-13 20:31:00 UTC
Likely watch 4 or 5 different solutions then reverse engineer the available info to something new and baffling :P
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#30 - 2012-10-14 14:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyke Mossari
Epsilon Eridani has been suggested as one end of the Eve Gate.

I've just found that Babylon 5 is located at Epsilon 3 in the Epsilon Eridani.

There are certain obvious homage themes; The Jove and Enheduanni remind me of the Vorlons & Shadows in Babylon 5 in over all theme; The Law vs Chaos, the visits to younger races as Angels, genetic manipulation, the hands-off influencing to War vs Cooperation.

The Minmatar remind me of the Narm
The Amarr remind me of the Centari
Gallente and Caldari war and break up are similar to Earth Alliance Santiargo/Sheridan & B5 & Mars vs Clarke and Earth story line.

CONCORD - is like Interstellar alliance.


((BTW Michael O'Hare recently died))
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#31 - 2012-10-14 15:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Very much so.. I commented a while back on the similarities between the mobile rogue drone construct in the Sister's arc and the "ancient" races that vie with the alliance and the Vorlons\Shadows at the end of the series, before leaving the galaxy to allow the young races to evolve under their own impetus. Many of these races had evolved into collectives, or hive minds.

The series also introduced a religion which I liken to the enigmatic Unified Catholic Church..

"I am alive. everything else is negotiable."

Look at Chinese Astronomy, Wyke.. Notably, the three enclosures.. I've always wondered if there is a similarity between the constellations in New Eden and those in the "old world"?

When researching the Yan Jung I came upon the city of Suzhou, the Venice of the East.. Look at the flag and then the EVE logo and the supposed markings on the EVE gate.. The entrance to mankind's new garden of Eden.. An enclosure?

Also, look at superbubbles, and the possible implications of The Line.. Particularly, the Orion-Eridanus Superbubble.

And finally, for those wishing to expand their imaginations a bit, check this out..

Isn't it time we embraced the 260th Century?Twisted

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#32 - 2012-10-14 16:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyke Mossari
Still looking through those, you might want to take a look the following a interesting overview of different cosmologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_space_and_time

Also, checkout his paradoxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_Shi

then look at these

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Arek'Jaalan:_Ancient_Races#Technological_Fields_of_Specialization_2
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#33 - 2012-10-14 16:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Brilliant, Wyke.. That gives a deeper understanding to the Sleepers, Time Dilation and a much better understanding of this chronicle..

Nice, also an apparent parallel between the Yan Jungs and the Takmahl..

And even goes a bit further in deepening the esoterics of illumination..Blink

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#34 - 2012-10-14 17:07:59 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:

EVE gate.. The entrance to mankind's new garden of Eden.. An enclosure?


Shocked

I think we need to get a translation of that chinese.Idea
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#35 - 2012-10-14 17:27:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Ya, haven't been able to do that, yet.. Think it may relate more to the I-Ching than Chinese script.. Heaven Approaching Heaven..Heaven VS. Heaven? Of further note, look at the date the city was founded.. Roll

Also the Yang's have been a huge personal influence and inspiration in my own life, culminating in two awesome individuals through Tai Chi and Kung Fu, Ip man and Bruce Lee.. Not that it has anything to do with Eve, just thought it worth mentioning.. Lol

"Quit looking at the finger (me), you'll miss all that heavenly glory.."

Though, come to think about it, the martial arts expressed in some of the Hyperconsciousness chronicles seem to reflect the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#36 - 2012-10-18 14:33:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
About JOVE status... Don't forget the Sansha were "spotted" in Jove territory during the Incursion pre-launch story.


///


I think your story overall is stricken with the kind of disinformation we're expected to create due to lack of information.

I'm not criticizing your efforts, I just think that renaming of organizations isn't where you should be going with this. Talocan are called Talocan because they're Talocan, not Jove.

EVE NPCs can be quite idiotic at times, but even they would be able to say "I think that's a Jove ship, even if it's an ancient one". Otherwise it wouldn't be called Talocan. Etc.

Where I am.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#37 - 2012-10-18 14:49:53 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:
Brilliant, Wyke.. That gives a deeper understanding to the Sleepers, Time Dilation and a much better understanding of this chronicle..

Nice, also an apparent parallel between the Yan Jungs and the Takmahl..

And even goes a bit further in deepening the esoterics of illumination..Blink


>>> http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Precious_Tableau_(Chronicle)

This chronicle doesn't have anything to do with space-time. It has to do with a Capsuleer creating his own "holodeck" so to speak to live in and pretend it's his life.

CCP is pointing out much as we sit in our everyday normal life pretending to be Capsuleers, that Capsuleers would probably pretend to be us because they can't have a normal life.

Unless that's what you meant.

Where I am.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#38 - 2012-10-18 15:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
I disagree.. No, it is a very deep chronicle that I don't completely understand.

The Precious Tableau... Or, the precious table.. As in database table..

The keys to the chronicle are in the first line;

Quote:
Mime.Access.Requested


Mime, in this context, is certainly not multipurpose internet mail extensions.. But , Mime, a unit of imitation in the theory of Symbiosism..

Why, if the user in question is a capsuleer, does the story end like this?

Quote:
Scene.interrupt;Scene.start(3389);

He's a capsuleer, flying free, unfettered and undoubted, heading towards the stars.


And, further, what is the signifigance of this?

Quote:
Scene.start(3357);

[->User]Scene not found;


If it is one of us sitting behind our computers it would make sense, but, I don't think that is what it means. I disagree emphaticly that the user is a capsuleer. I'd be more inclined to think it is a Sleeper.. Or, it is a Rogue Drone trying to understand human concepts, by accessing a Sleeper. The User is not the one doing the accessing, from all evidence, but, the one being accessed...

Quote:
Logoff;

[->User]Please confirm exit;
[->User]Please confirm exit...;
[->User]Please confirm exit...;
Cancel;
Remove.pets;Add.actor3;Reset;


Or it may just be a demonstration to us to introduce the idea of a symbiotic memetic lifeform that inhabits our brains... Living, evolving knowledge..

Quote:
Data is eternal, immortal, immutable. Even when the engineers and intelligence behind its creation are gone, information, facts, and knowledge never die. Throughout this deadspace pocket, information lives and breathes, whispering hidden meanings through conduits and cables. Serene though it may be, there are forces at work – mechanical by nature, artificial in existence, enlightened by unnatural choice – that do not want information to be shared. They are unsleeping guardians protecting the universe’s slumbering god, knowledge.


As far as the space time reference above, you misunderstood my intentions. Time is defined by what? Light and dark cycles. The movements of the universe, but, for we humans, inevitably by light and dark cycles. As beings of organic origin, running on wetware computers, the Sleepers need light, probably introduced through organic photocells built into the wetware to provide a time cycle and keep the sleepers from going crazy from sensory deprivation..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#39 - 2012-10-18 15:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Roga Dracor wrote:

EVE gate.. The entrance to mankind's new garden of Eden.. An enclosure?




The EVE Gate description says that the Gate didn't collapse, but an "Electromagnetic Storm flows from it".

It sounds like something had closed the hole, not specifically collapsed it. EM Storms sounds like a Sun to me. And that someone "put up a Sun" to shut the hole behind them. You have to remember, that we call our Galaxy "Anoikis." (Anoikis is a form of programmed cell death which is induced by anchorage-dependent cells detaching from the surrounding extracellular matrix (ECM).[1]) and "Anoikis is the name used by Capsuleers for the star systems found through wormholes, it is believed by many to be Jovian in origin." [2]

So, it is likely that the EVE Gate was shut off, and that the W-Space destination that we explore with the Sleepers and Talocan within them is an attempt to return back to EVE Gate Space. This can be highlighted in another persons thread I read (sorry, don't remember where it is atm). But, essentially the Isogen stores that were put in place in New Eden were intended to mirror the destination through the wormholes. The Sleepers and Talocan working together would have arrived at the W-Space destination (Sleepers being cryogenically and data capable to sustain long treks - Talocan being excellent Navigators to take them there). Setting up similar Isogen stores in the destination galaxy and then lighting up the Isogen systems would have set off the wormholes so that their "people" could return to... "home"? Or where?

The Jovians, being the underdogs and having constant mastery over cloak, espionage, etc could have easily planted a few spies on the Sleeper/Talocan/Pursued with Cloak ships the 10,000+ year journey back to their destination ~ when the time was right (whatever that means) - they would have been in a good place to set things off.

The major issue that we have to contend with any theories about the Jovians being "naughty" are the Jovians "hated enemy" - Enheduanni (Read this if you haven't :: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Theodicy_(Short_story) )

Quote:
Grious stopped. "The ‘Order’—we call them ‘Enheduanni’—do not fight their own wars. They have the Empires fight for them, which they achieve by controlling the influence of those who rise to power. But the Minmatars were not supposed to collapse so quickly, and it appears they have also underestimated the impact of Ammarian religion on society. So now they have successfully involved us to reset the balance that is most favorable to them."


Jamyl Sarum was also hearing voices in her head - and being manipulated
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jamyl_Sarum

Quote:
In truth, she had been cloned, but the procedure did not go as planned. In her effort to disguise what she had done, Jamyl allowed an unseen element to sneak into her cloning. She awoke, but was altered. Her personality had split into two; one was a peaceful woman of great piety, the other an ambitious zealot who held no great love of religion or God, only conquest.

Additionally, through some unknown method, Jamyl proved able to read the thoughts and communicate with those close followers of hers over vast distances. It was only the proximity of the EVE Gate that severed this link, and then only briefly. This power, combined with her split personalities, left Jamyl in a precarious position.


She was also the one that found the superweapon, and also the same superweapon that could open the wormholes when misused.

Along the way... http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Spiral_(Chronicle)
A nobody of a Sisters of EVE NPC ends up digging up the location of the superweapon, and...
Quote:
And just like that, the noose relaxed. It had been like this, always and always, when we wanted to help the people who needed our aid. The world found a way for us, and whatever needed to happen it made happen for us. I felt blessed and exonerated.


Enheduanni much?

"I looked over my people. We would go somewhere no one had ever gone, and play our part in the grand scheme."

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Great_Harvest_(Chronicle)

Quote:


The line cut off.

Shortly after, they were hailed again. A new voice spoke, one that was unknown to the captain. It felt emotionless and dead. It said, "Are you listening?"

...

The voice said, "We will upload to your ship an extensive packet of data. Once you have accepted its delivery you will fully verify its integrity, for any errors will kill you and cost us the entire mission. This data bulk is an access key that will alter the drones' programming, resetting it to its original state, and thus grant you safe passage.

...

"You can't, obviously," the voice said. "But you can very much trust us to explode the vessel if you fail. Prepare for acceptance of the data string. And bring the ship to the wrecked station by planet ten, moon two in the Roua system."

The transmission ended. Someone in his crew said, "That's a ... Society of Conscious Thought area, sir."


Mind you... these "Drones" are VERY much like those described in Sleeper space in Function (maybe not look or utility) - drones that go into the sun and retrieve material. In this case they're gathering Isogen-5 - in Sleeper space it's more ambiguous.

So, are the Enheduanni simply a secret faction within the Jove? Rather than another race? Or are they the remains of the Sleepers in our space that were planning on opening the W-Space wormholes in order to get back in touch with their now "extinct" counterparts? Also, some hints in :: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/514_(Chronicle)

Will elaborate more after that settles.

Where I am.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#40 - 2012-10-18 16:24:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Bloodpetal wrote:

The EVE Gate description says that the Gate didn't collapse, but an "Electromagnetic Storm flows from it".

It sounds like something had closed the hole, not specifically collapsed it. EM Storms sounds like a Sun to me. And that someone "put up a Sun" to shut the hole behind them. You have to remember, that we call our Galaxy "Anoikis." (Anoikis is a form of programmed cell death which is induced by anchorage-dependent cells detaching from the surrounding extracellular matrix (ECM).[1]) and "Anoikis is the name used by Capsuleers for the star systems found through wormholes, it is believed by many to be Jovian in origin." [2]

So, it is likely that the EVE Gate was shut off, and that the W-Space destination that we explore with the Sleepers and Talocan within them is an attempt to return back to EVE Gate Space. This can be highlighted in another persons thread I read (sorry, don't remember where it is atm). But, essentially the Isogen stores that were put in place in New Eden were intended to mirror the destination through the wormholes. The Sleepers and Talocan working together would have arrived at the W-Space destination (Sleepers being cryogenically and data capable to sustain long treks - Talocan being excellent Navigators to take them there). Setting up similar Isogen stores in the destination galaxy and then lighting up the Isogen systems would have set off the wormholes so that their "people" could return to... "home"? Or where?

The Yan Jungs built the Eve Gates.. Their technology is especially susceptible to electromagnetic disruption. The hows of the disruption I don't claim to know, but, it does seem pretty obvious it was intentional, but, by whom is unclear to me. Someone or something on the other side seems most likely.

You have me at a disadvantage, as I have never read any of the novels..Ugh

Quote:
You have to remember, that we call our Galaxy "Anoikis."

And you completely lost me here..

Quote:
In truth, she had been cloned, but the procedure did not go as planned. In her effort to disguise what she had done, Jamyl allowed an unseen element to sneak into her cloning. She awoke, but was altered. Her personality had split into two; one was a peaceful woman of great piety, the other an ambitious zealot who held no great love of religion or God, only conquest.

Additionally, through some unknown method, Jamyl proved able to read the thoughts and communicate with those close followers of hers over vast distances. It was only the proximity of the EVE Gate that severed this link, and then only briefly. This power, combined with her split personalities, left Jamyl in a precarious position


This contradicts everything I have seen about the Other on these forums.. Having not read the novel, again, I am not well enough informed to dispute it, personally.. Though it does provide a strong hint to the identity of a certain individual in a certain chronicle. And why she would say our worlds were affected too, being the cause of the disaster..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.