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[Winter] Combat Cruisers

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Nnezu
Artificial Memories
#101 - 2012-10-02 15:37:57 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Nnezu wrote:
cruisers getting a 25% velocity buff and mostly a fourth midslot. And you want to armortank them?



I think it should be the preferred option for all of them except the moa, but if it isn't, something is broken. If all that happens is that now people can fly 3 new superior variations on the LSE AC rupture, then these changes aren't very good.



I wanted to point out that this is exactly what will happen right now.


thorax: mini-talos (99% fit identically)

stabber, rupture: fit them like you fitted a hurricane

VEXOR: why put plates ona ship that could kite with valkyries+rails or go brawl with some active tank and blasters/huge flight of drones and potentially 3 damagemods distributed between blaster/ogre-damage. I don't know, but some kind of popular dual-ASB-brawl-vexor sounds like an issue to me. I'm not sure but the vexor looks potentially insane for solowork. I can imagine 600 dps coming out of this thing.

Moa: somehow like a vexor, but worse.

Caracal is a missileboat, HAM faggotery with 2 LSEs in the mids incoming.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#102 - 2012-10-02 15:39:10 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
blasters on caldari



scrub
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2012-10-02 15:39:28 UTC
By the way Fozzie, is the HAM Maller off the table or still an option?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#104 - 2012-10-02 15:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
this is the vexor i want to fly

Vexor:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to drone optimal range and tracking
10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
Slot layout: 3 H (-2), 4 M (+1), 6 L (+2), 3 turrets
Fittings: 800 PWG (+125), 300 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(-73) / 2000(+515) / 2000(+515)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+200) / 482.5s(+36.25s) / 3 (+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 215(+46) / 0.6(+0.03) / 10310000 / 5.8s (+0.3)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 150
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 62.5km / 280(+4) / 6(+1)
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric (+2)
Signature radius: 145 (-5)
Cargo capacity: 480

this would make it a pure drone ship and give it some neat options...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Onnen Mentar
Murientor Tribe
#105 - 2012-10-02 15:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Onnen Mentar
While the changes look reasonable, I share some of the overall sentiment:
- Moa: move a low to a medium slot. Keeping the focus on tank. Remove the drones.
- Rupture: I applaud the utility reduction. It needs to lose its drones (all of them) as the 4th medium slot is pretty powerful.

Keep drones for boats that depend on them. Both the rupture and the moa have the utility high to deal with frigates, they do not need ECM drones or warriors on top. Might be a good way to reduce Tier 2 BC effectiveness as well and boost anti-frig support roles.

Minmatar Balancing, 3 suggestions.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#106 - 2012-10-02 15:40:28 UTC
The Stabber will be able to project and apply alot more damage @ range compared to a Rupture. The new Stabber should be able to kite any Rupture setup.

Stabber:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret firing speed
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
Slot layout: 6 H, 4 M (+1), 4 L (+1), 4 Turrets, 2 Launchers

The ship will significantly outdamage a Rupture @ range, but not up close. This ship seems alot more effective in fleets/packs. So, it does have an advantage and is diffirent. Still, I'd rather use a Bellicose...

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#107 - 2012-10-02 15:42:22 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
blasters on caldari



scrub


All the cool kids are doing it.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#108 - 2012-10-02 15:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
MIrple wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:
Quote:
Major Killz
Posted: 2012.10.02 14:38

First of all. The dudes complaining about the Rupture getting a boost are p deluded. The ship got 1 mid slot and lost a utility slot. Every other combat cruiser received a significant boost. Either a damage bonus or extra slots. The Vexor is the worse offender and probably, along with other Gallente ships should be near overpowered given Gallente ships lack of versatility.

Only those who understand meta combat aspects of Eve will see the usefulness of a forth mid slot. Most will just think about having an extra shield extender.

In anycase, if the Rupture didn't get a forth mid slot many attack cruisers would overshadow a Rupture close or long range and according to CCP that's not suppose to happen.

So only 3 of the 4 cruisers on that list got boosted. The Rupture is the same ship and all of the combat cruisers got a increase in velocity.

EDIT: Also, to the r3t@rds. The Omen will and does do significantly more damage @ 17km than a shield-Rupture. The new Caracal and Bellicose will also out damage a Rupture @ those ranges with more tank. Infact the shield-Rupture will have as much damage and tnak as a shield-thorax @ 20km.


Omen doing more damage than rupture? What did you smoke?
Yeah all combat cruisers got increase in velocity and rupture is still faster.
Standard Rupture fit is 4 425mm ac T2, medíum energy neut, small energy neut 2, large shield ext, warp dis2, 10mn microwarp, tracking enhancer2, nanofiber2, 2gyrostab 2, damage control, field extender, thermal and em shield rigs.
Does 391fdmg at 26km with drones, 1741m/s and 19k ehp. 465dmg/s with Rep fleet phase plasma m at almost 18km.
NOW we can get rid of the small energy neut and get an invu field.... CCP are you crazy???
That thing is faster than any other T1 non faction cruiser (okay stabber is faster) and kills like hell PLUS tank????
Rofl.



Someone stop this dude before he continues to show how t@rded he really is. @ 20,000m (20k) that shield-Rupture with 2 tracking enhancers is in falloff. I dont include drones when comparing turret damage with regard to specific setups. The Rupture will only start seeing it's maximum damage @ 4,000m (4km)

The shield-Omen will be doing @tleast 300 damage p sec up to 27,000m (27km) and 360 damage p sec @ 9,000m (9km) and lower provided it can track. That is with Focused pulse and not with what will be a reduced heavy pulses.

@ 20km with faction ammunition and 2 tracking enhancers a Rupture will be doing less than 160 damage p sec without drones = / A Omen will be doing 300 damage p sec silly...

Now why anyone would try to Kite a shield Omen In a shield-Rupture with close range ammo I don't know. Your only hope is going up close and the shield Omen can prolong that long enough for either ship to lose.

Guess how much a Caracal will be doing after these changes? Right! Guess how much a shield-Thorax will do? About the same as the shield-Rupture. Guess what will out damage them both @ 20 k or morer? The Bellicose...



I love the fact you are leaving drones out of this when the Rupture has them and the Omen does not. Add the Drones and look you are doing more damage at 20k. But then this breaks your argument. Give the Omen drones and I will be ok with what you are saying.



= / Even with 3 Drones the damage would be similar on both ships like it is now...

Omen:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire
Slot layout: 5 H, 3 M, 6 L (+1), 5 turrets
Fittings: 925 PWG (+195), 315 CPU (+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+27) / 1700(+137) / 1600(+37)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1475(+225) / 526s(+79.75s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 225(+44) / 0.51(-0.05) / 11650000 / 5.6s (-0.5)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 40(+25) / 40(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km(+10) / 300(+7) / 6(-1)
Sensor strength: 15 Radar (+2)
Signature radius: 125
Cargo capacity: 400(-50)


@tleast atempt to know what you're on about or atleast read...

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#109 - 2012-10-02 15:45:12 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
blasters on caldari



scrub


All the cool kids are doing it.



200mm moa 4 lyfe, 300 dps at 20km. Outdamage hacs erryday, tank like a 1600 plated rax/rupture except it all regenerates, cap out in 2 minutes.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#110 - 2012-10-02 15:46:47 UTC
mmm. moa needs more cap than vexor but vexor has more a conundrum me thinks :)

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2012-10-02 15:47:21 UTC
The Maller is going to need 15-25 bandwith and 15-50 bay to not be outclassed by the utility in the other 3. Or if no drones give us an extra slot instead, either a high or a mid.

And probably needs more cap. Thanks for the cargo hold for cap charges though.

Question about cap. It looks like average cap per second is just total cap divided by recharge rate. After applying skills it seems that this just makes all the average cap per seconds get to 5 per second.

The question, does the formula that gives you peak recharge around 33% mean that the Maller has a higher peak recharge than the other ships or that all ships in this class have the same peak to?

Without better cap recharge, and more utility in either drones or an extra slot the Maller is still just going to be bait.

Um the Moa needs another mid.

Yea! the Vexor and Rupture and even better than they were before... Well at least my Gallente character will be happy.

If "Combat Cruisers" are supposed to be tanky, shouldn't the Vexor and Rupture have active tank bonused instead of 2 damage bonuses.

Possible solution so the Gallente and Rupture tears don't hurt you.

Give all the ships a role bonus: 25% flat resist bonus on Maller and Moa, and whatever the equivilent active tank bonus is for Vexor and Rupture. Then give the Moa a range bonus, and the Maller a tracking, damage or range bonus.

That way you make them all useful, without having the tears from the WInmatar or the already troubled Gallente pilots.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#112 - 2012-10-02 15:48:54 UTC
Why keep the sixth high on the Moa? IMO it'd be better to shift that down to a med slot and then give it the ability to put on a web or something like that. It's not like anyone actually fits a launcher or anything in that sixth slot to be honest. Definitely keep the four low slots though.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#113 - 2012-10-02 15:49:28 UTC
Why am I reading all of you people asking for more mids on the Moa so you can fit more LSE's? The design gives it a resistance bonuse and guess what resistance bonused ships are for when coupled with the brawler concept?

Yea, active tanking.

So it would go something like MWD scram web ASB or MWD scam invuln ASB or boost amp ASB or something along those lines (i haven't tried to crunch actual numbers yet) but the problem is all of you seem to want to strictly buffer tank it and are ignoring the core concept behind all resistance bonused shield tanked ships.

Same with asking for a 4th mid for the Maller, and talking about its huge cargo bay and how "lasers don't use ammo".....well, lasers don't really need a web either, especially medium pulse, so your mid options would likely be MWD point CAP INJECTOR because you're really cap use heavy, the huge cargo bay of course allows for the amarr version of ammo: cap booster charges.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#114 - 2012-10-02 15:50:14 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
blasters on caldari



scrub


All the cool kids are doing it.



200mm moa 4 lyfe, 300 dps at 20km. Outdamage hacs erryday, tank like a 1600 plated rax/rupture except it all regenerates, cap out in 2 minutes.


That sixth high still has issues fitting anything but a small nuet.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#115 - 2012-10-02 15:51:31 UTC
Kethry Avenger wrote:

Question about cap. It looks like average cap per second is just total cap divided by recharge rate. After applying skills it seems that this just makes all the average cap per seconds get to 5 per second.

The question, does the formula that gives you peak recharge around 33% mean that the Maller has a higher peak recharge than the other ships or that all ships in this class have the same peak to?


Fozzie for some reason doesn't seem to think that amarr should have good cap and minmatar should have bad cap. They all have the same peak recharge. They only have a tiny difference in cap amount.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#116 - 2012-10-02 15:52:45 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
blasters on caldari



scrub


All the cool kids are doing it.



200mm moa 4 lyfe, 300 dps at 20km. Outdamage hacs erryday, tank like a 1600 plated rax/rupture except it all regenerates, cap out in 2 minutes.


That sixth high still has issues fitting anything but a small nuet.



Salvager II

$$$$$
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#117 - 2012-10-02 15:53:16 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Moa: It doesn't have enough power grid and it's gimped with four mids:

High:
Nuetron II x 5
(empty)
Mid:
Named MWD
Regolith LSE
Adaptive Hardner II
Warp Scrambler II
Low:
MFS II x 2
TE II
DC II
Rigs:
Thermal Shield
EM Shield
Ancillary Current Router

Warrior II x 3

The above fit is 10 pg from becoming a reality. I can fit it with a genolution implant set - but that's not really fair to everyone else, eh? It does 477 DPS with Null and 649 DPS with Void. That is very nice. But it needs a web. Please note the empty worthless high slot?

Summary: Give this 10 - 20 more PG and trade that sixth high for a mid and we'll be in business.


CCP Stated that it would be hard to fit the highest sized guns on Cruisers. All you need is a 1% PG implant that is cheap. I do agree though that the Utility High should be a Mid slot.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#118 - 2012-10-02 15:53:29 UTC
The Moa is even more underpowered compared to these others. Give it another mid, maybe drop a low if you're worried about it.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#119 - 2012-10-02 15:55:14 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Moa: It doesn't have enough power grid and it's gimped with four mids:

High:
Nuetron II x 5
(empty)
Mid:
Named MWD
Regolith LSE
Adaptive Hardner II
Warp Scrambler II
Low:
MFS II x 2
TE II
DC II
Rigs:
Thermal Shield
EM Shield
Ancillary Current Router

Warrior II x 3

The above fit is 10 pg from becoming a reality. I can fit it with a genolution implant set - but that's not really fair to everyone else, eh? It does 477 DPS with Null and 649 DPS with Void. That is very nice. But it needs a web. Please note the empty worthless high slot?

Summary: Give this 10 - 20 more PG and trade that sixth high for a mid and we'll be in business.


CCP Stated that it would be hard to fit the highest sized guns on Cruisers. All you need is a 1% PG implant that is cheap. I do agree though that the Utility High should be a Mid slot.


Well i hope they do the same for bc's they have too much dps and too many drones too.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#120 - 2012-10-02 15:55:46 UTC
Have you people never looked at a cyclone?

Would you call it underpowered?

Its an active tanked ship and it doesn't have a rack of mids.


STOP trying to put LSE's on everything.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.