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[Winter] Combat Cruisers

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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#901 - 2012-11-12 14:16:45 UTC
Deerin wrote:
...Maller is going to be plain bad at solo action but it will be good in gangs (esp with logi support).

Understatement of the year. It has what will probably the tightest of niches ever created in Eve, an effective engagement envelope of 5km (19-24km) with no hope in hell outside that except when someone is nice enough to sit still for it.
HPL tracking is quite horrible and no amount of tank will save you if you can't get rid of a damage source .. it is too narrow a niche if you ask me which is why I wanted it to have get a tad more cap, a sixth gun (or increased damage bonus) and forego the ridiculously easy to kill 3 light drones that no competitive PvP pilot will ever consider a threat (standard frig shield buffers will passive regen any damage from three gnats).

Essentially embrace the fact that it is to be used in gangs and make it unsurpassed in that role by making it into the equivalent of the wrath of God if ignored .. much like the Abaddon on BS scale .. missing one of those things sitting at 20+km is certain annihilation.

So far the only Amarr cruiser I am excited about is the Arbitrator (TDs will be godly), warming up to the Omen but still not there yet and had so hoped that the Abaddonification would make Mallers anvils one could throw at the enemy in the hopes they forgot to duck at the appropriate time and not some palsy bricks.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#902 - 2012-11-12 16:21:16 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
You say this as if it has not been thought of. Have you tried it on test yet? Being forced to put on a cap booster just to be able to fire guns is a bit much, wouldn't you think? In particular on a ship that only has 3 slots to begin with (2 really, since all ships need prop mods in pvp).

I can understand using a cap booster to make a ship stable or last much longer when using every thing overheated in the middle of combat, or if it is being neuted. Thats what they are for. But there needs to be at least a good foundation to start, and the Maller does not have anywhere near that in regards to cap usage at the moment.


Now look at it from the other perspective. Imagine a t1 cruiser that can project around 350dps damage up to t2 point range with around 35-40k EHP. It would be too good if it didn't struggle at some other points. In mallers case it is cap usage and speed.

Maller is going to be plain bad at solo action but it will be good in gangs (esp with logi support).



lol, af effective maller gang.. Well.. Maybe if you can find an opposing gang nice enough to field only cruisers.. yes..

If you bring out a Maller gang in low sec you will get ass raped by tier 3 gangs, tech 3 gangs, bs gangs. Pretty much any other gang you might meet..

Cruisers aren't really viable big fleet ships because of the kind of fleets everyone else fleets.. you won't find any good fights for a gang like this.. Which is why t1 cruisers really need to be effective in 1-5 man gangs, because they don't scale all that well.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#903 - 2012-11-12 16:57:08 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

If you bring out a Maller gang in low sec you will get ass raped by tier 3 gangs, tech 3 gangs, bs gangs. Pretty much any other gang you might meet..


Put another cruiser name in that sentence and the result wouldn't really change. The new maller can be utilized as a cheap addition to an AHAC gang. I also expect those maller gangs to be used in FW medium plexes.

So there are ways to use cruisers in gangs.
The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#904 - 2012-11-12 17:10:09 UTC
Quote:
And found out that starting at 0 the Maller gets outbrawled by a shield rupture because it caps out completely before it can kill it. was rather depressing.


In a Maller, if you find yourself starting at 0 against a short ranged/high tracking ship, you've already lost the fight.

Ideally you start at 25-30km. When they approach, fly the opposite way, prolonging their advance and hit them with Scorch. At 13km get your web on them. At 7-8km switch to Conflag. It's no trouble hitting a ship under MWD, especially if it's approaching webbed. At 3-4km turn suddenly and manually pilot in their direction, making them slingshot past and chase you for a bit. Only when they are close and have established their orbit, switch to INMF. You'll know when as you see your tracking graphics drop and decreased hit quality from the log. Then do your best manual piloting to drop angular and not lose the dps war too quick. If you've softened them up enough on their way in you should be able to take them. You still have a tank to chew through. If they decide to run, point them and enjoy watching them traverse 24km under laser fire. They may be faster, but that's still a lot of distance to cover.

Easier said than done of course. You need to be quick with crystal swaps and as with all Amarr gunboats you need to mitigate your weaknesses with good L5 nav skills and Motion Prediction 5. Flying it like a Rupture, Thorax or new Moa is a death warrant. And of course this is that hypothetical 1v1 scenario that only happens on test servers.



So I tried a few fits out on Duality, all with 3 heat sinks, web, navy 400's, a 1600mm plate, warrior 2's and no point.

(ehp/scorch/inmf/conflag/cap boosted/cap unboosted) Cap quoted with INMF


I tried.

1. FMPL (48k/388/475/524/39%/1m20s)

2. HMPL (38k/442/542/599/4m29s/1m7s)


Then for sake of argument I tried these. DPS is imagined 4 turret, +10 damage bonus, no drones. I was interested in the cap values.

3. FMPL Neut (44k/326/410/457/10m51s/2m) Cap stable with navy 800's in med booster.

4. HMPL (45k/378/474/529/45m43s/1m18s)


And lastly, one with a point and nos instead of a booster. DPS same as 3 and 4.

5. FMPL Nos (46k/326/410/457/1m51s/1m19s) With MWD off cap is 50%/3m55s


As far as fits 1 and 2 go I found them to be fairly competitive dps wise. Getting those volleys in before they are upon you is important. Fit 2 did surprisingly well against a Sacrilege. He was webbed and chasing me for most of the fight though. Cap wise, boosting is mandatory just to run the ship. It's not enough to protect it from neuts however. The drones I found to be fairly useless at killing frigs or other drones quick enough. Hobgoblins were even worse. The slight bump in dps from them was probably helpful, especially at close quarters but they are hardly a game changer. Just a nice bit of fluff. I didn't always use them as I wanted to get an idea of the dps for fits 3,4 and 5. Fit 3 I enjoyed a lot. No cap issues, frigs and dessys are quickly dealt with and it put up a good show against a Moa and a Thorax. Coming from a Punisher this is a natural fit to fly. Fit 4 could be a good fleet performer. It would get soloed by any armed ship BC down, including the new mining frig, but en mass should gangbang anything within 250km3 of space. Good cap for an extended fight.

None of the above have a point, which obviously precludes solo play (no surprise). I would also say that this precludes small gang work too as for fleets smaller than 10 or so, everybody should still have a point. You really don't want to be THAT GUY that lets the gangs target warp off in structure because he popped your tackler and nobody else was near enough. Maybe it's ok if you are bringing mega dps or utility to the team, but you're not doing either of those things.

So fit 5 has a point and web. It performed pretty well. It wasn't tested under neuts but as long as I pulsed my mwd and didn't do much chasing around it's cap was in good shape. As a 1v1/small gang boat it's the best you're gonna get.


In conclusion though I felt that none of the above setups are ideal. Especially when you compare them to the other new cruisers. The new Moa is devistating, the new Vexor is savage and the new Rupture is the rock/scissors/paper king. They all have at least 4 midslots which can be put to good use against the Maller. They all have something special about them. The new maller as it stands now is only good. The others are great. There is nothing about it that will make people want to fly it. Nothing that can't be easily countered and nothing outstanding to make you not care about that. (I'll still fly them, but I'm a laser fanboy so that's not saying much)

In the end I felt my ideal Maller would be 5 highs, 4 turrets, 1 utility, +10 damage bonus AND drones for a dps bump. Pipe dream, I know. But it would make it a bit more special.


CCP Fozzie et al, if you are really set on drones and no utility, then at least make it 5 drones. Right now it's good, not great.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#905 - 2012-11-12 18:08:17 UTC
The VC's wrote:
Cap wise, boosting is mandatory just to run the ship. It's not enough to protect it from neuts however. The drones I found to be fairly useless at killing frigs or other drones quick enough.


In conclusion though I felt that none of the above setups are ideal. Especially when you compare them to the other new cruisers. The new Moa is devistating, the new Vexor is savage and the new Rupture is the rock/scissors/paper king. They all have at least 4 midslots which can be put to good use against the Maller. They all have something special about them. The new maller as it stands now is only good. The others are great. There is nothing about it that will make people want to fly it. Nothing that can't be easily countered and nothing outstanding to make you not care about that. (I'll still fly them, but I'm a laser fanboy so that's not saying much)

In the end I felt my ideal Maller would be 5 highs, 4 turrets, 1 utility, +10 damage bonus AND drones for a dps bump. Pipe dream, I know. But it would make it a bit more special.


CCP Fozzie et al, if you are really set on drones and no utility, then at least make it 5 drones. Right now it's good, not great.


Snipped the rest for space. The underlined parts are what I was trying to stress, and I agree with. The biggest point being, you need cap boosting, just to run the ship. That needs adjustment. All of the feedback I have seen so far says the same thing as what you typed at the end of your post. Nothing that makes it a 'yep, we need a Maller in our fleet' setup.

So it can not solo, it has very poor cap, and it (still) is not desired in fleets. This ship needs some love.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#906 - 2012-11-12 18:28:35 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Nothing that makes it a 'yep, we need a Maller in our fleet' setup.


If the only thing happening was that the Maller was getting a damage bonus then things would be fairly balanced. As all the others are getting reworked the Maller's being left behind again.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#907 - 2012-11-13 11:14:07 UTC
Your fit 2 (HPL maller) with conflag have the dps of a thorax with void+drones (gank thorax) ; it's more than a hurricane. It also have 50% more ehp than a thorax.

It have more dps than an armor thorax (even including drones) and still a lot more ehp.

Fit 1 (FMPL maller) have twice the ehp of a thorax.

You are also imune to kiting (with any fit, scorch ability).

Question about your fits : you assumed 10% damage bonus for fit 3 and 4, and the dps values showed take this 10% into account ?

Why don't you start by droping these armor rigs ? That would save some speed and leave place for other useful things, like tracking or capacitor rigs ?

Maller still have projection and ehp with no contender in cruiser size.

Of course these are only numbers and cap/tracking/speed issues certainly hurt, but still, it's natural drawbacks of lasers and armor. I think a lot of the maller's problems will go when armor will be fixed.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#908 - 2012-11-14 05:05:19 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Your fit 2 (HPL maller) with conflag have the dps of a thorax with void+drones (gank thorax) ; it's more than a hurricane. It also have 50% more ehp than a thorax.

To be fair, though, it's also a lot slower, a lot less maneuverable, can't point anything, and caps out in a minute and a half unboosted, and even less time if anybody even thinks of neuting it. Also, I'm pretty sure he's listing damage with OH.

Oh, and if you really want to compare (referring to this: "it's more than a hurricane"), use similar fits. An armour cane is almost as fast, has more DPS, tank, doesn't have to worry about its cap, has a point, and has 2 utility highs.

Also, why am I comparing a Cruiser to a BC?

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

It have more dps than an armor thorax (even including drones) and still a lot more ehp.

Fit 1 (FMPL maller) have twice the ehp of a thorax.

You are also imune to kiting (with any fit, scorch ability).

And is still a lot slower and can't point anything... and caps out easier.


Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Question about your fits : you assumed 10% damage bonus for fit 3 and 4, and the dps values showed take this 10% into account ?

That's assuming 10% damage bonus and 1 less gun (allowing a utility high). Otherwise in order to get a utility high, you'd have to sacrifice a slot from elsewhere.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Why don't you start by droping these armor rigs ? That would save some speed and leave place for other useful things, like tracking or capacitor rigs ?

Maller still have projection and ehp with no contender in cruiser size.

Of course these are only numbers and cap/tracking/speed issues certainly hurt, but still, it's natural drawbacks of lasers and armor. I think a lot of the maller's problems will go when armor will be fixed.

Yes, I agree that once armour is fixed, there will be little to complain about when it comes to the Maller and Omen (except maybe the comparison between those two ships and which is better, etc.), however it would be nice to not cap out in minimal time just from shooting, and for neuts to not be such a big deal for these ships. Cap batteries and Cap boosters are the only counters to neuts, and both of those need mid slots, not something either ship has much of.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#909 - 2012-11-14 08:27:19 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

It have more dps than an armor thorax (even including drones) and still a lot more ehp.

Fit 1 (FMPL maller) have twice the ehp of a thorax.

You are also imune to kiting (with any fit, scorch ability).

And is still a lot slower and can't point anything... and caps out easier.


....and why is that a problem. If it were otherwise the ship would just pwn everything out there. Mallers role is to stay there endure and punish back. If you need to catch, point and deal damage to something, you might try amarrian attack cruiser Omen.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#910 - 2012-11-14 10:06:21 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

It have more dps than an armor thorax (even including drones) and still a lot more ehp.

Fit 1 (FMPL maller) have twice the ehp of a thorax.

You are also imune to kiting (with any fit, scorch ability).

And is still a lot slower and can't point anything... and caps out easier.


....and why is that a problem. If it were otherwise the ship would just pwn everything out there. Mallers role is to stay there endure and punish back. If you need to catch, point and deal damage to something, you might try amarrian attack cruiser Omen.


But doesn't it seem rather **** to have a t1 cruiser that is more gimpy and limited than any t2 ship? <.<

Also i contend the "The maller is good in gangs thing".. Its alright at the very best.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#911 - 2012-11-14 11:48:27 UTC
What I mean is that this maller still have some undeniable qualities and that some of its drawback are either inherent (lack of mids, you have a LOT of lows to compensate) or known problems (armor tanking...)

You cannot ask a plated armor ship to be fast (to be honnest, you can't ask a lot of an armor ship at the moment), and yet you cannot make all the ships shield tankers just because of this. The right way is to fix armor tank, not to compensate for armor balance problems in the hull.

Second thing is ehp : your mallers have, for the frailest one, 50% more ehp than regular gallente or minmatar ship. You cannot ask your ship to have such resilience AND have comparable other stats (speed/dps/cap).

Start by reducing your tank to standard lvl and minmatarize your ship if what you want is a lazors minmatar ship. As I said, you can easily remove all the armor rigs for something else to alleviate the problems you face. Even one ellutriation rig can be enough to solve all your cap problems (well, to the level of a cap using ship of course, but that's another debate).
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#912 - 2012-11-15 02:45:49 UTC
So, despite the recent dev blog which seems to herald "this is how it will be" I figured I'd post some of the things I've been tooling with on the test server.

I put XL-ASBs on pretty a few of them and took them out for solo work. Yes, solo is "dead", and XL-ASBs don't belong on cruisers, but hey, its really fun.

Moa. Solid ship, good deeps, nice tank. Basically a buffer slower thorax.

Vexor. Whoa momma. As far as cruisers go, this ship is insane. Great EHP w/ armor. Good tank and incredible (500 from drones) dps with an XL-ASB. Fitting a TD in the mids and neuts in the highs this ship pretty much dominates any turret boat.

I didn't test the maller or rupture myself, but I did fight against them quite a bit. As many of the people in this thread have pointed out, the maller's not the great for solo, and neuts trivialize the ship. The rupture surprisingly seemed more fragile. Maybe its all the people trying to fit shield buffers on it, or maybe its just the awesomeness of the vexor and the thorax (the two ships I spent the most time tooling around in). Overall, all the combat oriented cruisers seem better. Are they balanced against each other? Probably not, but just hop in a vexor and you'll forget about all your maller woes. :p
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#913 - 2012-11-15 03:02:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyella Stormborn
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
What I mean is that this maller still have some undeniable qualities and that some of its drawback are either inherent (lack of mids, you have a LOT of lows to compensate) or known problems (armor tanking...)

You cannot ask a plated armor ship to be fast (to be honnest, you can't ask a lot of an armor ship at the moment), and yet you cannot make all the ships shield tankers just because of this. The right way is to fix armor tank, not to compensate for armor balance problems in the hull.

Second thing is ehp : your mallers have, for the frailest one, 50% more ehp than regular gallente or minmatar ship. You cannot ask your ship to have such resilience AND have comparable other stats (speed/dps/cap).

Start by reducing your tank to standard lvl and minmatarize your ship if what you want is a lazors minmatar ship. As I said, you can easily remove all the armor rigs for something else to alleviate the problems you face. Even one ellutriation rig can be enough to solve all your cap problems (well, to the level of a cap using ship of course, but that's another debate).


You seem to be under the impression we are asking for this ship to be everything. We are not. We stated several problems that make it not very functional as a whole. The largest problem is the fact that it can not use its own racial weapon system without a cap battery. I think a car that could not run its headlights for more than 2 minutes without disposable battery packs would probably not sell well.

We said it is slow, has few mid slots, AND has a very large cap problem. I have seen people ask for cap (most of us), +mid slot (a few) and I may have missed it but I don't remember someone asking for more speed. It's tanking was not complained about. As a matter of fact, with its slot layout, all it really is, is a brick brawler, and it would be nice if it could do that well.

Hop on test, fit it out with your Ellutriation rig (again, having to fit rigs / batteries just to make it functional?), and you will still need a cap battery, and that may get you functional for 2 or 3 minutes. EFTing it looks better than its function on test by everything I have seen.

Now, compare that on test to the other combat cruisers on test. See how it does vs them in combat. Get a couple of friends and do 3v3, or 5v5. Want to really make it hurt? Throw in a few energy neuts and watch it crumple like a wet paper bag in <30 seconds.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#914 - 2012-11-15 05:21:11 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
What I mean is that this maller still have some undeniable qualities and that some of its drawback are either inherent (lack of mids, you have a LOT of lows to compensate) or known problems (armor tanking...)

You cannot ask a plated armor ship to be fast (to be honnest, you can't ask a lot of an armor ship at the moment), and yet you cannot make all the ships shield tankers just because of this. The right way is to fix armor tank, not to compensate for armor balance problems in the hull.

Second thing is ehp : your mallers have, for the frailest one, 50% more ehp than regular gallente or minmatar ship. You cannot ask your ship to have such resilience AND have comparable other stats (speed/dps/cap).

Start by reducing your tank to standard lvl and minmatarize your ship if what you want is a lazors minmatar ship. As I said, you can easily remove all the armor rigs for something else to alleviate the problems you face. Even one ellutriation rig can be enough to solve all your cap problems (well, to the level of a cap using ship of course, but that's another debate).


You ever stop to think a slow brick might need more range and tracking to make up for it?

Medium Pulse range is an absolute joke. Medium beams are a disaster to fit and a joke for range as well. There are only a few ships even capable of using either of those well.

For starters, why isn't there a medium and small equivalent to Tachyons? Good alpha, high DPS, horrible on cap, horrible on grid?

Secondly, why do medium pulses get such terrible optimal? Bump their optimal up by about 2 base, and it fixes a lot of the issue with speed ships just kiting it all day.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#915 - 2012-11-15 07:45:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Medium Pulse Lasers are frigate sized pulse lasers.

Heavy Beam Lasers are cruiser sized Tachs.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#916 - 2012-11-15 09:01:01 UTC
I'm Down wrote:

Medium Pulse range is an absolute joke.
.
.
.
Secondly, why do medium pulses get such terrible optimal? Bump their optimal up by about 2 base, and it fixes a lot of the issue with speed ships just kiting it all day.


I believe you meant Heavy pulses. They already have the best damage projection of all short range cruiser size weapons....and you want to double it?

I'm Down wrote:

Medium beams are a disaster to fit


I believe you meant heavy beams...and it is getting a fix at 4th dec.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#917 - 2012-11-15 09:42:21 UTC
Deerin wrote:
I'm Down wrote:

Medium Pulse range is an absolute joke.
.
.
.
Secondly, why do medium pulses get such terrible optimal? Bump their optimal up by about 2 base, and it fixes a lot of the issue with speed ships just kiting it all day.


I believe you meant Heavy pulses. They already have the best damage projection of all short range cruiser size weapons....and you want to double it?

I'm Down wrote:

Medium beams are a disaster to fit


I believe you meant heavy beams...and it is getting a fix at 4th dec.



Range is really not the issue with lasers.. at 20km pulses outdps any other short range weapon. But sadly that really doesn't make up for all the other issues pulses have.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#918 - 2012-11-15 10:20:12 UTC
Yeah, let's make every ship shield tanked with capless weapons. \o/
Alara IonStorm
#919 - 2012-11-15 10:26:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

Range is really not the issue with lasers.. at 20km pulses outdps any other short range weapon. But sadly that really doesn't make up for all the other issues pulses have.

Amarr is a race that runs 100% on Scorch Crystals. Blasters work okay with just Antimatter, Auto's don't need Barrage, SR Missiles do not need T2 Ammo. Yes those weapons can be made better with T2 but they are not in dire straights without it.

Take away Amarr's Scorch is like breaking the races kneecaps with a tire iron. Amarr should be able to stand well with and without Scorch.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#920 - 2012-11-15 11:26:37 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

Range is really not the issue with lasers.. at 20km pulses outdps any other short range weapon. But sadly that really doesn't make up for all the other issues pulses have.

Amarr is a race that runs 100% on Scorch Crystals. Blasters work okay with just Antimatter, Auto's don't need Barrage, SR Missiles do not need T2 Ammo. Yes those weapons can be made better with T2 but they are not in dire straights without it.

Take away Amarr's Scorch is like breaking the races kneecaps with a tire iron. Amarr should be able to stand well with and without Scorch.


I second the Scorch thing, Scorch is a world of difference for Amarr, it allows their short range weapons to reach out very far while maintaining good dps (which is another reason why LR weapons suck). This makes Amarr hard to train into since you need t2 weapons (which also makes fitting tight as downgrading to meta4 is not an option) and also as said, makes them very reliant on Scorch, Amarr needs more options.