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[Winter] Combat Cruisers

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The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#781 - 2012-10-28 17:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: The VC's
Koujjo Dian wrote:
I really wonder if the better optimal range of lasers is worth the crappy tracking and huge cap issues.


In short, yes it is. However..

The trouble with Amarr ships is that, more than any other race, they really don't start to work well until you start getting your L5 skills. I think a lot of players give up on them before that and never go back. Fitting them too is also a headache. You can get good performance out of the Maller and the Omen. It just takes the two genolutions, a +5 PG and a +5 weapons upgrades.

You can understand why relatively few players are able to make them work.



ED. Also, Amarr ships tend to work better in fleet engagements with good tackle support, and in that context tracking isn't so important, good optimal is.
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#782 - 2012-10-28 17:26:38 UTC
The VC's wrote:
Koujjo Dian wrote:
I really wonder if the better optimal range of lasers is worth the crappy tracking and huge cap issues.


In short, yes it is. However..

The trouble with Amarr ships is that, more than any other race, they really don't start to work well until you start getting your L5 skills. I think a lot of players give up on them before that and never go back. Fitting them too is also a headache. You can get good performance out of the Maller and the Omen. It just takes the two genolutions, a +5 PG and a +5 weapons upgrades.

You can understand why relatively few players are able to make them work.


Well seems to me that even with level 5 skills on say a Navy Omen it is barely cap stable with just the guns and a tackle mod running. 1 med neut should be able to totally ruin your day. Just seems a little extreme to me.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#783 - 2012-10-28 17:31:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Drones don't apply full damage unless you use an omnidirectional tracking link.

They apply Dmg to Cruiser sized targets fine and apply more Dmg to Frigates in most fights then Blasters.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

I'm all for an optimal bonus on the Moa to save it's railgun capabilities, but a more than 5% bonus on weapons is only seen on faction ships usualy. Remember it's a T1 cruiser. And extended PG will allow it to fit neutron blasters with anything it need without any sacrifice to do.

Usually is not an excuse for anything. Faction ships getting this bonus have plenty of other advantages, the Moa is losing several things to equal it out. All the so called fitting sacrifices would be tank related and losing the 25% Tank bonus makes them moot.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

And why this cruiser should have a better damage bonus than than the others on top of its full second bonus ?

Lack of drones. Roll The Dmg is about exactly the same and no Drones don't apply less. Back to your origional point, no a 7.5 % bonus would not be OP for Blasters, it would be better for Rails then Drones and nothing is imbalanced about this design.

The tank bonus loss only make this Moa like all the others (well, with 5 mids). Compare your Moa to the Thorax, even the future one. Drones don't make for everything.

And ask the question the other way : why does this Moa need a better bonus than the Thorax ?

PS : No, drones don't hit their target just fine ; try it : even on a scramed+webed tier3 BC, a small hobgobelin will have light hit and barely scratched hit.
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#784 - 2012-10-28 17:32:57 UTC
The VC's wrote:
Koujjo Dian wrote:
I really wonder if the better optimal range of lasers is worth the crappy tracking and huge cap issues.




ED. Also, Amarr ships tend to work better in fleet engagements with good tackle support, and in that context tracking isn't so important, good optimal is.


Forgive me ( I'm still a newer player ) but I keep hearing "Amarr ships are better in fleets". But while watching the alliance tournament X I've noticed very few Amarr ships in any of the setups. I have however only watched day 1 so far and there seems to be a lot of ASB ships.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#785 - 2012-10-28 17:39:40 UTC
Koujjo Dian wrote:
Forgive me ( I'm still a newer player ) but I keep hearing "Amarr ships are better in fleets". But while watching the alliance tournament X I've noticed very few Amarr ships in any of the setups. I have however only watched day 1 so far and there seems to be a lot of ASB ships.

ATX is more small gang than fleet, and that's more the Gallente/Minmatar focus.
Alara IonStorm
#786 - 2012-10-28 17:44:22 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

The tank bonus loss only make this Moa like all the others (well, with 5 mids). Compare your Moa to the Thorax, even the future one. Drones don't make for everything.

It would be a RAIL BOAT.

If you are saying it brings nothing special to the blaster field then good.
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

And ask the question the other way : why does this Moa need a better bonus than the Thorax ?

Answer, don't ask silly questions.

The Thorax has a 50m3 Drone Bay while this Moa would have none.

Bonuses do not count for anything and these improved bonuses are designed to make it a full on Gun Ship which is exactly what I said this change would do to it. 100% Guns no extra Dmg.
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

PS : No, drones don't hit their target just fine ; try it : even on a scramed+webed tier3 BC, a small hobgobelin will have light hit and barely scratched hit.

That is the Damage Modifier not Tracking and it is chance based just like on all guns. Roll

This ship design has nothing that makes it more powerful in a Blaster Fit then current. If you don't like the design I have proposed for personal reasons then say so but please don't try and say it is for balance purposes.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#787 - 2012-10-28 18:22:29 UTC
Also you should be shot on sight for fitting blasters on a poor defenseless moa =<

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Aglais
Ice-Storm
#788 - 2012-10-29 14:19:32 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Also you should be shot on sight for fitting blasters on a poor defenseless moa =<


You people think so rigidly I'm having trouble believing you're not part of some organized religion worshipping the concept of being able to use railguns only on Caldari hybrid ships as your personal God.

One of the reasons the Eagle is so awful, is because it is very close to being a pure rail boat. It's far, FAR too niche to compare to any other HAC. It is too specialized.

Furthermore this kind of specialization isn't what T1 cruisers are about, at all. The new Moa is going to be an adaptable multipurpose ship in terms of what it can field for guns.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#789 - 2012-10-29 17:14:14 UTC
When can I mess with these on duality? I'd like some sort of thing where only changed stuff gets seeded, like with the frig thing a few weeks back. If possible, ban all those test server dwellers who hang around in vindicators and dreads all day trying to stop people testing stuff.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#790 - 2012-10-29 21:18:27 UTC
It's going to be interesting to see if the massive ehp*dps characteristics that make the Merlin semi-OP will translate directly to the Moa since it now has a fifth midslot.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#791 - 2012-10-29 21:21:57 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:

Armor boats being faster is a good idea to balance them, however, they shouldn't be faster than shield boats.
They shouldn't be faster than shield boats IF THEY ARE ADEQUATELY ARMOR TANKED. A "hull tanked" Gallente ship should be FASTER than any Minmatar ship.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#792 - 2012-10-29 21:25:22 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
It's going to be interesting to see if the massive ehp*dps characteristics that make the Merlin semi-OP will translate directly to the Moa since it now has a fifth midslot.



not without a big speed boost it won't

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#793 - 2012-10-29 21:28:13 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
It's going to be interesting to see if the massive ehp*dps characteristics that make the Merlin semi-OP will translate directly to the Moa since it now has a fifth midslot.

not without a big speed boost it won't

but with advantage of EHP + buffed remote reps (resists bonuses to Moa) it will. so there.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#794 - 2012-10-29 21:50:35 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
It's going to be interesting to see if the massive ehp*dps characteristics that make the Merlin semi-OP will translate directly to the Moa since it now has a fifth midslot.

not without a big speed boost it won't

but with advantage of EHP + buffed remote reps (resists bonuses to Moa) it will. so there.


so there.... lol how old are ya? :P

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Dischordant
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#795 - 2012-10-29 22:54:21 UTC
Edit: wrong topic
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#796 - 2012-10-29 23:51:31 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
It's going to be interesting to see if the massive ehp*dps characteristics that make the Merlin semi-OP will translate directly to the Moa since it now has a fifth midslot.

not without a big speed boost it won't

but with advantage of EHP + buffed remote reps (resists bonuses to Moa) it will. so there.


so there.... lol how old are ya? :P

We'll see where they land. I have a feeling they will land in the OP category just like the Merlin simply because the Caldari pilot testing them out for CCP probably isn't very good (and the Caldari pilots on the test server are under reporting how awesome it really is).
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#797 - 2012-10-30 00:11:37 UTC
Gallentius: The combat cruiser changes aren't live on Duality.

And again as has been brought up, the Moa is very slow. It'd be OP if it could match speeds with a shield rupture. It can't.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#798 - 2012-10-30 04:05:37 UTC
lol at 50k EHP overheated plus 592 dps (with only two mag stabs). Speed: 210/190 = 10% = 1 overdrive injector, or properly timed mwd overheat. Just sayin'.... I hope the CCP devs take a hard look at the Moa and gets a good pilot to test it out. Big smile
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#799 - 2012-10-30 04:41:05 UTC
give the maller a fourth medium slot for a cap booster and it would be a fine ship. It has no option for a nos and i fear that without giving the maller something interesting it will end up as bait brick again.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#800 - 2012-10-30 12:44:55 UTC  |  Edited by: The VC's
Bienator II wrote:
give the maller a fourth medium slot for a cap booster and it would be a fine ship. It has no option for a nos and i fear that without giving the maller something interesting it will end up as bait brick again.


The trouble with a fourth mid is that it will have to come from somewhere, which would probably mean nerfing one of the Maller's greatest strengths. It's abundant lowslots. I personally think the new Coercer is getting a small nerf by losing a low instead of a high to gain it's new mid. Losing a heatsink does more to it's damage output than losing one of it's eight turrets. I would say that if anything, the Omen could use a fourth mid, but I shield tank it, so what do I know.Smile



ed. not serious about fourth mid Omen, having all them lows is just too useful.


ed 2. I too, worry that the Maller will just end up as an even more bricky bait ship than before. It's just had a PG buff.