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[Winter] Combat Cruisers

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Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#301 - 2012-10-03 13:07:40 UTC
Yuri Intaki wrote:
Callduron wrote:
Are Faction cruisers being adjusted? With the buffs to the basic cruisers most of the faction ones seem pretty redundant. Just to take Caldari as an example.


This is definetely something which should be adjusted at the same time as other cruisers. Otherwise we will be waiting for update a long time I fear.

At the very least faction hulls should get some changes to speed, shield, etc. that vanilla versions get. However, that still does not address the imbalance of slots. For example Nosprey has 12 slots compared to 14 of attack cruisers and Nosprey is supposed to be the fastest caldari boat out there. Right now Nosprey can be surprisiginly effective but come winter, it's going to be laughed at by pretty much anything.

Nosprey would probably need increase to drone bay and +1 high/mid with one more launcher to make it worthwhile. And PG/CPU to go with it of course.


This this and this. If ccp does not apply the current power creep trend to faction and t2 ships as well we're going to have an abysmally small power gap between 25m and 300m isk cruisers. Just look what's happened to faction frigs What?
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#302 - 2012-10-03 13:13:52 UTC
There's no speculation when you're given the technical specification of a new car. However, Unlike in real life, in the case of Eve-online. Where we have access to how the physics (enviroment) efffects the vehicle. Meaning, everything with regard to the ship and module is quantifiable and how the enviroment effects its preformance.

Which is different compared to how individual interact with each other within the physics (enviroment). Pilots intentions being unquantifiable. Which is something CCP has no control over and is trying to figure out. How to enact change so armor modules are used as much as shield modules? There's been innovation away from CCP desired changes in every patch to date.

Most in this game aren't innovators and only look @ what others have done in the past or present to come to a conclusion. The Stabber is hella fast but, most don't fear it. Why? Because it doest have a drone bay? The ship will out damage the Rupture @ 17km and above, is alot faster and has the same tank. Won't the stabber just kite a Thorax to death? Or! A Maller or most armor and shield fitted ships.

Anyway.

There's no substance behind many of the arguments being made and little fact.

Why does the Moa need another mid slot? One guy made the point he could hit 8km with null in warp scrambler range before and now apparently he cant. You can still do that, you'll just be in falloff instead of optimal. You gain a substantial increase in damage for the trade. I wanted to be able to field 5 light drones with the Moa. CCP didn't make that change. Infact I would rather a 50m drone bay than have a 5th mid slot.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#303 - 2012-10-03 13:24:51 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Just look what's happened to faction frigs What?



They continued to be widely used, fast and decent ships?
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#304 - 2012-10-03 13:37:44 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
They continued to be widely used, fast and decent ships?


I have not seen much change here either. Then again, those changes applied to all faction frigs and made them all relatively good for their intended purposes. The fact other t1 frigates got buff later didnt knock them out of the game in the least.

Hookbill is still better than condor (except condor permaruns mwd), slicer kites better than executioner, etc. but condor can now kill comet or slicer if decently fitted and piloted for example.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#305 - 2012-10-03 13:38:20 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Just look what's happened to faction frigs What?



They continued to be widely used, fast and decent ships?


Agreed there just will not be as large a gap as there currently is. Be patient they will be changed probably next patch or shortly after the winter expansion.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#306 - 2012-10-03 13:44:01 UTC
A look at the new Vexor

[Vexor, new]
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2
Hobgoblin II x1


Roughly 29k hp (new armor and hull values simulated with a 6% hull implant, Reinforced Bulkheads II, 200mm RT plate)

450 drone dps (2x stacking penalized 23% drone damage mods and 315 base drone damage)
306 blaster dps with void.
274 blaster dps with navy antimatter.
218 blaster dps with null.

368 / 375 CPU
732 / 1000 PG

Goes 2153 m/s
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#307 - 2012-10-03 13:47:12 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
A look at the new Vexor

[Vexor, new]
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2
Hobgoblin II x1


Roughly 29k hp (new armor and hull values simulated with a 6% hull implant, Reinforced Bulkheads II, 200mm RT plate)

450 drone dps (2x stacking penalized 23% drone damage mods and 315 base drone damage)
306 blaster dps with void.
274 blaster dps with navy antimatter.
218 blaster dps with null.

368 / 375 CPU
732 / 1000 PG

Goes 2153 m/s



I always find it [totes] hilarious that alot of Gallente ships are far better shield tanked than armour tanked even when they have armour bonuses.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#308 - 2012-10-03 13:49:52 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
A look at the new Vexor

[Vexor, new]
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2
Hobgoblin II x1


Roughly 29k hp (new armor and hull values simulated with a 6% hull implant, Reinforced Bulkheads II, 200mm RT plate)

450 drone dps (2x stacking penalized 23% drone damage mods and 315 base drone damage)
306 blaster dps with void.
274 blaster dps with navy antimatter.
218 blaster dps with null.

368 / 375 CPU
732 / 1000 PG

Goes 2153 m/s


700 dps is pretty nuts but it will struggle to deal full blaster dps in scram range due to lack of range control. Also that drone setup and no web leaves you rather suceptible to frigs.
Nnezu
Artificial Memories
#309 - 2012-10-03 13:52:30 UTC
tried fitting up a new maller, pretending I don't need to move a lot.

[Maller, with more PG...]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

10MN Afterburner II
Warp Disruptor II
Sensor Booster II

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

If this is intended for rookies to be used in stationary fights, that is quite an awesome toy. 55k EHP, ~250dps with scorch at 20km. If I'd be in a situation with not much movement required, I'd like to sit in one of those.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#310 - 2012-10-03 13:53:55 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
A look at the new Vexor

[Vexor, new]
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2
Hobgoblin II x1


Roughly 29k hp (new armor and hull values simulated with a 6% hull implant, Reinforced Bulkheads II, 200mm RT plate)

450 drone dps (2x stacking penalized 23% drone damage mods and 315 base drone damage)
306 blaster dps with void.
274 blaster dps with navy antimatter.
218 blaster dps with null.

368 / 375 CPU
732 / 1000 PG

Goes 2153 m/s


700 dps is pretty nuts but it will struggle to deal full blaster dps in scram range due to lack of range control. Also that drone setup and no web leaves you rather suceptible to frigs.


It also has a large EM hole. It might work though would need to try this set up in the field
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#311 - 2012-10-03 13:54:14 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
700 dps is pretty nuts but it will struggle to deal full blaster dps in scram range due to lack of range control. Also that drone setup and no web leaves you rather suceptible to frigs.


A more conservative flight of 5x hammerheads gives 340 drone dps.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#312 - 2012-10-03 13:55:21 UTC
Nnezu wrote:
tried fitting up a new maller, pretending I don't need to move a lot.

[Maller, with more PG...]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

10MN Afterburner II
Warp Disruptor II
Sensor Booster II

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

If this is intended for rookies to be used in stationary fights, that is quite an awesome toy. 55k EHP, ~250dps with scorch at 20km. If I'd be in a situation with not much movement required, I'd like to sit in one of those.


With just 20m3 dronebay this wouldn't get pinned by any random frig and blobbed or slowly whittled down, if you're in a fleet you'd want more gank as nobody really shoots a Maller till the end of the fight.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#313 - 2012-10-03 13:57:30 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
700 dps is pretty nuts but it will struggle to deal full blaster dps in scram range due to lack of range control. Also that drone setup and no web leaves you rather suceptible to frigs.


A more conservative flight of 5x hammerheads gives 340 drone dps.


Yeah still 600 dps and a flight of bonused lights really gets frigs. Looking good but I feel like armor tank with utility mids will be better.
Nnezu
Artificial Memories
#314 - 2012-10-03 14:00:59 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Nnezu wrote:
tried fitting up a new maller, pretending I don't need to move a lot.

[Maller, with more PG...]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

10MN Afterburner II
Warp Disruptor II
Sensor Booster II

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

If this is intended for rookies to be used in stationary fights, that is quite an awesome toy. 55k EHP, ~250dps with scorch at 20km. If I'd be in a situation with not much movement required, I'd like to sit in one of those.


With just 20m3 dronebay this wouldn't get pinned by any random frig and blobbed or slowly whittled down, if you're in a fleet you'd want more gank as nobody really shoots a Maller till the end of the fight.


I assumed that this maller would be the one go-to ship a FC or CEO wants his fellow lemmings to fly, since due to massive tank and the matching disrupt/scorch range, it looks like a total nobrainer.
And remember how slow people initially react when broadcasting for armor, because of: 'shields slowly dropping' - omg everyone panic! - why they tackling me! - they tackling me! - broadcast.

Afterall suggesting this as an alternative to the suicide frig as your advanced noobvessel.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#315 - 2012-10-03 14:04:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
A look at the new Vexor

[Vexor, new]
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2
Hobgoblin II x1


Roughly 29k hp (new armor and hull values simulated with a 6% hull implant, Reinforced Bulkheads II, 200mm RT plate)

450 drone dps (2x stacking penalized 23% drone damage mods and 315 base drone damage)
306 blaster dps with void.
274 blaster dps with navy antimatter.
218 blaster dps with null.

368 / 375 CPU
732 / 1000 PG

Goes 2153 m/s



Nice!


I wonder how you think this setup will compare to the proposed Moa and Rupture? Clearly the Vexor does tier 2 battlecruiser damage and has 23 - 30% less hitpoints compared to a tier 2 battlecruiser, shield or armor. Do you have a opinion on how these new tech 1 cruisers will stack up against battlecruisers and even heavy assault cruisers? I mean that's what this change is about. Making these ships worth flying compared to battlecruisers and the Vexor and Moa are the ONLY tech 1 cruisers that will compare in terms of tank and damage.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#316 - 2012-10-03 14:09:33 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
700 dps is pretty nuts but it will struggle to deal full blaster dps in scram range due to lack of range control. Also that drone setup and no web leaves you rather suceptible to frigs.


A more conservative flight of 5x hammerheads gives 340 drone dps.


Yeah still 600 dps and a flight of bonused lights really gets frigs. Looking good but I feel like armor tank with utility mids will be better.


By the way you can keep a full flight of light drones even with the max dps drone flight.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#317 - 2012-10-03 14:17:47 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
700 dps is pretty nuts but it will struggle to deal full blaster dps in scram range due to lack of range control. Also that drone setup and no web leaves you rather suceptible to frigs.


A more conservative flight of 5x hammerheads gives 340 drone dps.


Yeah still 600 dps and a flight of bonused lights really gets frigs. Looking good but I feel like armor tank with utility mids will be better.


By the way you can keep a full flight of light drones even with the max dps drone flight.


I still feel that this ship should have a 150m3 drone bay to keep 3 heavys 5 med 5 lights. Gallente are the drone race and we are very limited on space for the drones. We have 480 M3 for cargo cap. Take 50 from that it would bring it down to 430 Cargo and give the much needed drone bay size to this deserving ship.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#318 - 2012-10-03 14:32:51 UTC
Atomic Option wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
6th moa high->mid

(because honestly, you can't get anything useful in that 6th slot, why would you put it. Stop putting placeholder slots)

everything else is good


the 6th high makes the moa a great ship for nigh unprobable gassing in Wspace with a probe launcher or cloak.


use the ore frig, or something not meant for "combat" as the title says

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
ColdCutz
Frigonometry
#319 - 2012-10-03 14:36:59 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
...both solid damage and good staying power.

.
.
.

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 100

.
.
.

Let us know what you think!
- 125m3 bay will allow for 3 ogres + 1 spare + 5 lights, or two flights of meds and one flight of lights. Slightly added versatility, but not the 3:1 ratio of Amarr's droneboats.


- I would also recommend the 5H, 6M, 3L layout for the Moa. It needs enough mids for adequate Tank and Tackle - Staying power.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#320 - 2012-10-03 14:40:31 UTC
ColdCutz wrote:


- I would also recommend the 5H, 6M, 3L layout for the Moa. It needs enough mids for adequate Tank and Tackle - Staying power.



I'd rather have a 6H (6 turrets), 5M, 3L layout with a 10% optimal range bonus over a 5% damage bonus