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[Winter] Combat Cruisers

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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#201 - 2012-10-02 18:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Liang Nuren wrote:
So they're both slow armor brawlers. I guess the Omen vs Maller is a question of better fittings + resist bonus vs drones? I honestly don't see the point of the Omen.

I don't see the point of the Maller. Omen does more damage (RoF bonus, plus drones, with more CPU), is faster, handles frigates better, has lower sig radius, and handles cap better. Maller is just a big brick. Omen might not be able to take it in a fight, but it will certainly have far more flexibility in choosing engagements and making them go well for it instead of just sitting there and soaking damage.

I, for one, will be flying Quad Light Beam Laser Omen all day erry day.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#202 - 2012-10-02 18:51:26 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Maller with laser bonus \o/



It's no longer a joke.

Love that flying an Omen or a Maller won't get you laughed at anymore.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#203 - 2012-10-02 18:54:02 UTC
Kaikka Carel wrote:

Rifter? The old AC Punisher was nice too.


Rifter sucks. Punisher is and has always been bad, regardless of what guns you used.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2012-10-02 18:54:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Rupture:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret firing speed
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage


I'm a little worried that Minmatar have the only attack cruiser that can change damage type at will without penalty. This pattern in general feels a bit unfair. Projectiles are not inferior anymore (far from it actually), they don't need that much versatility to be usefull. Or maybe hybrid/laser ammo could get other damage types, most players dislike the idea of 8 charge types that differ by dmage/distance/capuse and in 90% or more cases prefer antimatter (the other 10 is Void/Null).
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2012-10-02 18:54:40 UTC
Correct me if a am wrong but ships with the attack role are supposed to be high damage low tank, and combat are supposed to be moderate damage and high tank. So my pondering is why gallente is the way it is, for example
Frigates:
Tristran: Combat role, drone tracking and hp bonus, hybrid tracking bonus.
Incursus: Attack role, hybrid damage bonus, local armor rep bonus

Cruisers:
Vexor: Combat role, Drone damage and hp bonus, hybrid damage bonus
Thorax: Attack role, hybrid damage bonus, hybrid tracking bonus

So what is this?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#206 - 2012-10-02 18:57:11 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
The new Omen and Maller demonstrate why the Maller should really have been redesigned as HAM ship.

I believe the Maller not having drones is an attempt to differentiate it from the Omen. The drone bay and the second ship bonus (-10% cap usage vs +5% armor resists) are the only major differences between the two ships. The slot layout is identical and minor differences in armor and speed don't really affect the "feel" of the ship.

Now the Maller is running into problems because not having a drone bay hurts especially with lasers. But if you give it a drone bay, it's going to be very, very similar to the Omen. At the same time, the Maller pretty much needs a cap injector too because it doesn't have a laser cap usage bonus. So it would need one more slot than its peers which is "breaking the rules" so to speak.

If the Maller becomes a HAM ship you don't need to give it a drone bay nor an extra slot and it's going to be a very different ship from the Omen.

There is a similar problem at the frigate level too, with too many laser ships being too similar to each other.


I feel like the right answer is to turn the Omen into a giant Slicer - make it fast with an optimal+damage bonus. Then give the Maller the brawler role with a 25m^3 drone bay.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#207 - 2012-10-02 19:03:53 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Also, to address the whole Maller thing here.

Why not turn it into a missile ship? I mean, we have the Sacrilege, which is a T2 Maller hull. It's a missile ship. What I think, is that the Maller should not be specialized to using just Heavy Assault Launchers. Definitely give it a rate of fire bonus to heavy and heavy assault missiles, and keep the 5% bonus to armor resistances per level. This will make it somewhat different from the Omen, which is something I hear people complaining about in multiple threads.

And yes, I do think the Maller could use a drone bay. 15m^3 at the most.

I don't really know if that'd help but it's capacitor would then be able to be set aside for mobility and defense.



I suggested the same thing as well a couple days ago simply because I like the armor tanked missile ships Amarr has in T2 but there really is no path to them. I can't afford to lose T2 ships in pvp so until then those skills are useless. I do like how they fixed the omen and maller to be flyable, but it would be so much more cool if the maller was turned to a missile brawler.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#208 - 2012-10-02 19:04:10 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


I feel like the right answer is to turn the Omen into a giant Slicer - make it fast with an optimal+damage bonus. Then give the Maller the brawler role with a 25m^3 drone bay.

-Liang


Does the Maller have +5% laser damage and 5% armor resists in your answer?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#209 - 2012-10-02 19:14:11 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
The new Omen and Maller demonstrate why the Maller should really have been redesigned as HAM ship.

I believe the Maller not having drones is an attempt to differentiate it from the Omen. The drone bay and the second ship bonus (-10% cap usage vs +5% armor resists) are the only major differences between the two ships. The slot layout is identical and minor differences in armor and speed don't really affect the "feel" of the ship.

Now the Maller is running into problems because not having a drone bay hurts especially with lasers. But if you give it a drone bay, it's going to be very, very similar to the Omen. At the same time, the Maller pretty much needs a cap injector too because it doesn't have a laser cap usage bonus. So it would need one more slot than its peers which is "breaking the rules" so to speak.

If the Maller becomes a HAM ship you don't need to give it a drone bay nor an extra slot and it's going to be a very different ship from the Omen.

There is a similar problem at the frigate level too, with too many laser ships being too similar to each other.


I feel like the right answer is to turn the Omen into a giant Slicer - make it fast with an optimal+damage bonus. Then give the Maller the brawler role with a 25m^3 drone bay.

-Liang


Kind of sounds like a zealot :)

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#210 - 2012-10-02 19:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Fre@king h8ers. They have no real reason to hate other than the ship is MInmatar so it must be overpowered. They don't look @ the fact many other ships are being boosted by alot. They tend not to look @ thier benifits or how they would stack agains the Rupture and many of them will beat the ship. Frack it! Lets h8 and nerf that b!tch because you no that h0e is overpowered = /

@ kiting 3 other ships will be better than the Rupture. Up close 4 other ships will be better than the Rupture. The Rupture may up being number 1 @ not being great @ anything but good enough @ everything = / OMG the Rupture is faster than other combat cruisers. Well it is now and should be because it's weak compared to a vexor close range and weak compared to a bellicose, caracal and omen long range.

Also, I like how people in other threads were going on about why Caldari seem to make it out of all these boost with near overpwoered ships and Gallente don't.


It so happens Gallente have a near overpowered ship and now people are b!tching about how underderpowered the Caldari ship is...

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#211 - 2012-10-02 19:19:49 UTC
I've got 7 days left on medium beam laser specialisation 5. I'm going to leave it going as a joke.
Grog Drinker
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2012-10-02 19:20:25 UTC
Maller desperately needs a utility high/another mid/drones. As it is now it will be mugged by any frig that gets in range.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#213 - 2012-10-02 19:28:23 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Fre@king h8ers. They have no real reason to hate other than the ship is MInmatar so it must be overpowered. They don't look @ the fact many other ships are being boosted by alot. They tend not to look @ thier benifits or how they would stack agains the Rupture and many of them will beat the ship. Frack it! Lets h8 and nerf that b!tch because you no that h0e is overpowered = /

@ kiting 3 other ships will be better than the Rupture. Up close 4 other ships will be better than the Rupture. The Rupture may up being number 1 @ not being great @ anything but good enough @ everything = / OMG the Rupture is faster than other combat cruisers. Well it is now and should be because it's weak compared to a vexor close range and weak compared to a bellicose, caracal and omen long range.

Also, I like how people in other threads were going on about why Caldari seem to make it out of all these boost with near overpwoered ships and Gallente don't.


It so happens Gallente have a near overpowered ship and now people are b!tching about how underderpowered the Caldari ship is...


Stealth please don't fix my OP ship. Yes I have a problem with this ship being faster the the other 3 races ATTACK CRUISERS. I Think if the speed was brought down to on par or slightly slower the the other 3 races attack cruisers. It would still be a good ship but not step on the toes of the Stabber.
Sigras
Conglomo
#214 - 2012-10-02 19:35:41 UTC
why is the rupture so darn fast?

I thought the idea was that the attack cruisers were high damage, high speed, low tank
and the combat cruisers were moderate damage. low speed, high tank

If this is the case, why is the rupture faster than the omen, thorax, and caracal?
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#215 - 2012-10-02 19:38:07 UTC
Sigras wrote:
why is the rupture so darn fast?

I thought the idea was that the attack cruisers were high damage, high speed, low tank
and the combat cruisers were moderate damage. low speed, high tank

If this is the case, why is the rupture faster than the omen, thorax, and caracal?



Because. Thats y = /

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#216 - 2012-10-02 19:39:51 UTC


Quote:
Damage bonused rails are more useful than range bonused ones. Once you're hitting at a certain range it stops actually being helpful and just ridiculous.

Besides, Gallente have to deal with the suck that is Railguns too, so it's hardly homogeneity.


The problem with rails isn't that their stats are bad it's that any sort of fighting beyond 150km (which happens to be what railguns are good at) is useless because of on-grid warping. Fix that and suddenly they can become good.

Anyway, the problem with reducing their range is that then they start getting into beam laser territory, and beam lasers are just better at beam laser ranges.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#217 - 2012-10-02 19:41:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
The new Omen and Maller demonstrate why the Maller should really have been redesigned as HAM ship.

I believe the Maller not having drones is an attempt to differentiate it from the Omen. The drone bay and the second ship bonus (-10% cap usage vs +5% armor resists) are the only major differences between the two ships. The slot layout is identical and minor differences in armor and speed don't really affect the "feel" of the ship.

Now the Maller is running into problems because not having a drone bay hurts especially with lasers. But if you give it a drone bay, it's going to be very, very similar to the Omen. At the same time, the Maller pretty much needs a cap injector too because it doesn't have a laser cap usage bonus. So it would need one more slot than its peers which is "breaking the rules" so to speak.

If the Maller becomes a HAM ship you don't need to give it a drone bay nor an extra slot and it's going to be a very different ship from the Omen.

There is a similar problem at the frigate level too, with too many laser ships being too similar to each other.


I feel like the right answer is to turn the Omen into a giant Slicer - make it fast with an optimal+damage bonus. Then give the Maller the brawler role with a 25m^3 drone bay.

-Liang



Or keep the bonuses as they are and use beams.. you know, the long range weapon...

**** TE's

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#218 - 2012-10-02 19:44:06 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Moa:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
5% bonus to shield resistances
Fittings: 800 PWG (+20), 375 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2100(+225) / 1200(-129) / 1500(-24)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1425(+50) / 475s(-16.25s) / 3 (+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+31) / 0.54 / 11720000 / 5.9s
Cargo capacity: 450 (+200)

Slot layout: 6 H, 4 M, 4 L, 5 turrets, 2 launchers

Let us know what you think!
o.O;

Of all of the cruisers, you aren't changing the slots on the Moa? What!?

I'm happy about everything else, but the slots are just bad. I really though it should get 6 mid slots. You can't even fit a full tackle and shield tank. This is nuts. I think the Merlin should be an example.

Slot layout: 5 H (-1), 5 M (+1), 4 L, 5 turrets, 2 launchers

I personally feel that is too many low slots, but I think 5 mid slots is the most we will get. At least you can fit partial tackle, a decent tank, and full damage mods. You still can't do a full tackle, but this is a combat ship, not a tackle/attack ship. It just is annoying because every other ship in the class can fit a full 3 slot tackle.
Alara IonStorm
#219 - 2012-10-02 19:47:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

I feel like the right answer is to turn the Omen into a giant Slicer - make it fast with an optimal+damage bonus. Then give the Maller the brawler role with a 25m^3 drone bay.

-Liang

Ding Ding Ding!

* On another note CCP Fozzie why exactly did you chicken out on fixing medium rails and just Shield Gallente'd the Moa. Just sad.
* 4 Turret Double DPS Bonus Rupture, really? Decided to skip giving it a real role besides Blaster wannabe / The Ship people will kite with instead of the Stabber?
* Vexors fine. +100 more Grid would be nice but its fine.

Sigh.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#220 - 2012-10-02 19:49:23 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I, for one, will be flying Quad Light Beam Laser Omen all day erry day.


What.