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Buff Ganking--Nevermind, Nerfed Again

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2012-10-02 12:38:47 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Yes.

Things are not balanced by cost of the hull.


They should be.


You just invalidated 95% of all things in EVE.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-10-02 13:48:25 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Yes.

Things are not balanced by cost of the hull.


They should be.


welp you're wrong because they never have been and never will

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2012-10-02 14:07:01 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Yes.

Things are not balanced by cost of the hull.
They should be.
No, they really shouldn't, since history has shown -- in EVE and elsewhere -- that cost is not a balancing factor. Even games with fix cost will break down if you try to that unless the diminishing returns are so huge as to render the most expensive ships completely useless compared to their cheaper counterparts.

...and in EVE, it's even worse since the costs are not fix.
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-10-02 14:11:24 UTC
OP, here's your thread.

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!
Kestutis Fujika
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-10-02 15:30:46 UTC
Its fine at it is. It was stupid that cheap ship could kill Hulks. If you want balance so much the lets bring everyone on same grounds. Lets make that all BC, BS would pop as soon they even would dare to fit any damage or scram mods(Aka mining upgarade and skaners for miners). Let make it so that ur tengus and other shines would blow up from 3 thrashers or sentrys.
Since we all need to put tank.
TharOkha
0asis Group
#26 - 2012-10-02 15:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Pipa Porto wrote:

Given that that ship's owner chose not to fit any sort of tank in order to make that possible, sure it is.
.


Even well "tanked" mack was easy prey for catalyst. Please dont tell me that a couple of hundred HP on multi hundred milion ship was "balanced" :D. You just crying for easy prey and cowardly hiding behind "they should tank it better" Roll

Quote:
They take precautions and are no better off for it than the people who take no precautions.


wat?

Quote:
Where does CCP say "except HS" in the tagline?


Maybe in the core of the name itself of those regions? You know ....."""HI-SECURITY SPACE""?!

Quote:
Not so much. They used to be, but then CCP decided to put them in swaddling clothes

Buffing destroyers DPS, adding Tier 3 BC speaks for something different Blink BTW dont mud the water with clothes and NEX. Its not hisec dwellers fault ok?

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Pipa Porto
#27 - 2012-10-02 15:58:26 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
Even well "tanked" mack was easy prey for catalyst. Please dont tell me that a couple of hundred HP on multi hundred milion ship was "balanced" :D. You just crying for easy prey and cowardly hiding behind "they should tank it better" Roll


A Hulk pre-buff tanked better than many HACs. A Hulk pre-buff tanked enough that it could not be profitable to gank with a reasonable number of gankers.

So you're saying price should affect tank? Really?

Quote:
Quote:
They take precautions and are no better off for it than the people who take no precautions.


wat?


Look at the ice belts. The people who are sitting AFK for 40 minutes at a time are no worse off than the people who are paying attention to their ships. Ergo, there's no benefit to paying attention.

Quote:
Maybe in the core of the name itself of those regions? You know ....."""HI-SECURITY SPACE""?!


"EVE is a Cold, Harsh Universe" where does it say 'Except for High Sec' in there?

High Security space is simply a different set of aggression mechanics, one where aggression costs the aggressor something.

Quote:
Buffing destroyers DPS, adding Tier 3 BC speaks for something different Blink BTW dont mud the water with clothes and NEX. Its not hisec dwellers fault ok?
You're conveniently forgetting the insurance nerf that came along with those. Crucible significantly increased the cost to gank anything.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2012-10-02 16:02:22 UTC
Kestutis Fujika wrote:
Its fine at it is. It was stupid that cheap ship could kill Hulks. If you want balance so much the lets bring everyone on same grounds. Lets make that all BC, BS would pop as soon they even would dare to fit any damage or scram mods(Aka mining upgarade and skaners for miners). Let make it so that ur tengus and other shines would blow up from 3 thrashers or sentrys.
Since we all need to put tank.


T3 ships do explode to destroyers...

Also yes, it was stupid that a single destroyer could kill a hulk. But the stupidity was entirely on the part of the hulk pilot for fitting no tank at all and opening themselves up to this kind of gank.
Kestutis Fujika
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-10-02 16:45:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kestutis Fujika wrote:
Its fine at it is. It was stupid that cheap ship could kill Hulks. If you want balance so much the lets bring everyone on same grounds. Lets make that all BC, BS would pop as soon they even would dare to fit any damage or scram mods(Aka mining upgarade and skaners for miners). Let make it so that ur tengus and other shines would blow up from 3 thrashers or sentrys.
Since we all need to put tank.


T3 ships do explode to destroyers...

Also yes, it was stupid that a single destroyer could kill a hulk. But the stupidity was entirely on the part of the hulk pilot for fitting no tank at all and opening themselves up to this kind of gank.


Show me any kills were t3 got killed with 2 destroyers in high sec. If u put tank before balance you lose all yield bonuses , but all other ships can balance dmg ewar and tank modules and Hulks , macs and other couldn't it was tank or yield. Hulk should be on pair with BC (power grid, cpu , number of slots and so on) . Yes they or not meant for battle , but that doesn't mean they have to be paper thin.
Pipa Porto
#30 - 2012-10-02 17:14:47 UTC
Kestutis Fujika wrote:
Show me any kills were t3 got killed with 2 destroyers in high sec. If u put tank before balance you lose all yield bonuses , but all other ships can balance dmg ewar and tank modules and Hulks , macs and other couldn't it was tank or yield. Hulk should be on pair with BC (power grid, cpu , number of slots and so on) . Yes they or not meant for battle , but that doesn't mean they have to be paper thin.


Why in the world should the Hulk be on par with a BC? Cause you don't feel like having to make choices?

There are 3 things that matter to a mining ship. Tank, Yield, and Cargo. If you keep insisting that a mining ship is worthless without max Yield, you'll keep getting ganked.* Everyone else has to make fitting choices between elements that matter to their ship, why shouldn't Miners have to?

*No longer true, since CCP codified in game mechanics the fact that miners are too stupid to protect themselves.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Kestutis Fujika
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-10-02 17:43:40 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Kestutis Fujika wrote:
Show me any kills were t3 got killed with 2 destroyers in high sec. If u put tank before balance you lose all yield bonuses , but all other ships can balance dmg ewar and tank modules and Hulks , macs and other couldn't it was tank or yield. Hulk should be on pair with BC (power grid, cpu , number of slots and so on) . Yes they or not meant for battle , but that doesn't mean they have to be paper thin.


Why in the world should the Hulk be on par with a BC? Cause you don't feel like having to make choices?

There are 3 things that matter to a mining ship. Tank, Yield, and Cargo. If you keep insisting that a mining ship is worthless without max Yield, you'll keep getting ganked.* Everyone else has to make fitting choices between elements that matter to their ship, why shouldn't Miners have to?

*No longer true, since CCP codified in game mechanics the fact that miners are too stupid to protect themselves.

But what about efficiency ? Miners are no different from pvper or pvers everyone has its goals. Be its isk/h or killmails, but everyone should be on even grounds.Before update it was hardly possible .Miners had sacrifice there efficiency for tank while other activities of eve could more or less balance it . Now its fine i can balance yield and tank( Thougth same balancing is still needed among barges ) Now i wish that ccp would do some think about mining that it would be so god damn annoying.
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#32 - 2012-10-02 18:06:27 UTC
nerf stuff!

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#33 - 2012-10-02 18:17:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Kestutis Fujika wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Kestutis Fujika wrote:
Show me any kills were t3 got killed with 2 destroyers in high sec. If u put tank before balance you lose all yield bonuses , but all other ships can balance dmg ewar and tank modules and Hulks , macs and other couldn't it was tank or yield. Hulk should be on pair with BC (power grid, cpu , number of slots and so on) . Yes they or not meant for battle , but that doesn't mean they have to be paper thin.


Why in the world should the Hulk be on par with a BC? Cause you don't feel like having to make choices?

There are 3 things that matter to a mining ship. Tank, Yield, and Cargo. If you keep insisting that a mining ship is worthless without max Yield, you'll keep getting ganked.* Everyone else has to make fitting choices between elements that matter to their ship, why shouldn't Miners have to?

*No longer true, since CCP codified in game mechanics the fact that miners are too stupid to protect themselves.

But what about efficiency ? Miners are no different from pvper or pvers everyone has its goals. Be its isk/h or killmails, but everyone should be on even grounds.Before update it was hardly possible .Miners had sacrifice there efficiency for tank while other activities of eve could more or less balance it . Now its fine i can balance yield and tank( Thougth same balancing is still needed among barges ) Now i wish that ccp would do some think about mining that it would be so god damn annoying.

So you're trying to say PVP'ers don't sacrifice DPS or speed for tank?

This is the most broken argument I've ever seen. Mining is annoying, so you shouldn't have to fit a tank?

The dumbness is really flowing here.

PVP'ers make the same sacrifices miners were expected to but failed to make. So now 2/3 of the ORE ships have stupid EHP and giant ore bays.

When do I get a PVP boat with a built-in-tank so I can fit 100% for damage and still expect to survive an attack? Roll

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Kult Altol
The Safe Space
#34 - 2012-10-02 18:17:53 UTC
Pixel hard man, made me lol.

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

Pipa Porto
#35 - 2012-10-02 18:26:12 UTC
Kestutis Fujika wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Why in the world should the Hulk be on par with a BC? Cause you don't feel like having to make choices?

There are 3 things that matter to a mining ship. Tank, Yield, and Cargo. If you keep insisting that a mining ship is worthless without max Yield, you'll keep getting ganked.* Everyone else has to make fitting choices between elements that matter to their ship, why shouldn't Miners have to?

*No longer true, since CCP codified in game mechanics the fact that miners are too stupid to protect themselves.

But what about efficiency ? Miners are no different from pvper or pvers everyone has its goals. Be its isk/h or killmails, but everyone should be on even grounds.Before update it was hardly possible .Miners had sacrifice there efficiency for tank while other activities of eve could more or less balance it . Now its fine i can balance yield and tank( Thougth same balancing is still needed among barges ) Now i wish that ccp would do some think about mining that it would be so god damn annoying.


How efficient are you when you lose a ship?

Before the Update, you could fit the Hulk to mine more than any other ship in the game while tanking enough that ganking it was unprofitable.

You could also go with, say, 1 MLU and put up a tank stiff enough to discourage most ganks (and be unprofitable to gank anywhere .7 or north). That's what balancing priorities is.

Miners were complaining that they couldn't fit an unprofitable-to-gank tank while fitting 2 MLUs. Where's the balancing act there?

No, now you get both high yield and an unprofitable-to-gank tank AND a built in Jetcan. You haven't made any choices to balance anything, CCP's just straight up buffed you to safety.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2012-10-02 18:34:00 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Kestutis Fujika wrote:


Show me any kills were t3 got killed with 2 destroyers in high sec. If u put tank before balance you lose all yield bonuses , but all other ships can balance dmg ewar and tank modules and Hulks , macs and other couldn't it was tank or yield. Hulk should be on pair with BC (power grid, cpu , number of slots and so on) . Yes they or not meant for battle , but that doesn't mean they have to be paper thin.


You do realise that with all the hardeners off most tengu have around the same base tank as a hulk right? You catch them outside a staion or on the way to a mission and payday.

As for the hulks:

[Hulk, New Setup 1]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Small Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Survey Scanner II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Mining Drone II x5
Warrior II x5

Pre buff fit. Unprofitable to gank yet it still has MLU and even a rock scanner(T2 no less). Its was just like every other ship, you chose what level of gank or tank you want. Its on par with heavy assault cruisers right out of the box.
Kestutis Fujika
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2012-10-02 18:37:26 UTC
[Hulk, miner]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Small Shield Extender II
Small Shield Extender II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I


Hammerhead II x5

My hulk looked something like this and i was ganged several times. And i had only i upgrade and still got my ass kicked.
Pipa Porto
#38 - 2012-10-02 18:40:09 UTC
Kestutis Fujika wrote:
My hulk looked something like this and i was ganged several times. And i had only i upgrade and still got my ass kicked.


How profitable was it for them to gank you?

If someone is willing to throw money away to hurt you, the fact that they end up hurting you isn't a problem.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#39 - 2012-10-02 18:43:53 UTC
Kestutis Fujika wrote:


My hulk looked something like this and i was ganged several times. And i had only i upgrade and still got my ass kicked.


I see no Hulk losses in your history. This means either your hulk survived or you are telling porkies.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-10-02 18:55:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kestutis Fujika wrote:


Show me any kills were t3 got killed with 2 destroyers in high sec. If u put tank before balance you lose all yield bonuses , but all other ships can balance dmg ewar and tank modules and Hulks , macs and other couldn't it was tank or yield. Hulk should be on pair with BC (power grid, cpu , number of slots and so on) . Yes they or not meant for battle , but that doesn't mean they have to be paper thin.


You do realise that with all the hardeners off most tengu have around the same base tank as a hulk right? You catch them outside a staion or on the way to a mission and payday.

As for the hulks:

[Hulk, New Setup 1]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Small Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Survey Scanner II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Mining Drone II x5
Warrior II x5

Pre buff fit. Unprofitable to gank yet it still has MLU and even a rock scanner(T2 no less). Its was just like every other ship, you chose what level of gank or tank you want. Its on par with heavy assault cruisers right out of the box.


I think the reason many people didnt tank thier ship is somewhat linked to cross training for all the required skill reduced thier percived progression. Of course it's stupid to see it that way but even when I started 2 months ago, I was chain training mining and boat skill to get better yields total. The support stuff seemed useless to me back then because I wanted to mine and not fight. All that shield, armor and resistance were not linked to what I wanted to do so to hell with that right. It's a bad way of doing it but I am pretty sure many people saw it like that when they make mining thier carrer. I guess gettign ganked is supposed to be learning the hard way. Too bad some people get nothign out of this "class".