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Buff Ganking--Nevermind, Nerfed Again

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#221 - 2012-10-05 02:40:49 UTC
im mrmessy wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Yes.

Things are not balanced by cost of the hull.


They should be.


So you're saying a BC should not die to 10 cruisers?
A titan should be able to kill 30 dreads Edit: Along with 20 Neuting Tempests, Solo?

Titan killing what, a whole welpfleet? 10,000 catalysts?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#222 - 2012-10-05 02:42:46 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Right, because originally ganking was a fair and balanced system, rather than an exploited system with no real structure or rules in place. I suppose you might call that repeatedly nerfed, but I'd just call it fixed, (almost). Lol

Besides which, I think you've yet had little opportunity to figure out how this new system addresses both sides of the equation, as opposed to just 'nerfing' a style of gameplay as you are suggesting.

Sir I would direct you both to the threads "When Everybody Wins" and "A "Ganker's" View on Mining "Buffs".

There, I detail the projected ramifications of the buff/nerf dynamic for mining in some detail.

So far I am not demonstrated to be wrong.

I'm sorry your point was something about ganking and its design?

This game was based heavily on UO with the intent of open-world PVP even in "town."

So it always was in the design, by its inclusion in the design parameters.

I guess the current designers thought the first ones (even if it was the same people) were wrong.

With the benefit of new information, clearly highsec is the "growth option".

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Olleybear
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#223 - 2012-10-05 03:26:18 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

It is curious that when confronted with the truth of null benefitting equally from the mining buff and the lower mineral prices for "rare minerals" that have resulted that you choose to no longer ply curiosity to this effect, and instead revert to, "No, they are not!"


We agree that mining benefits between both Null and High sec are nearly identical and most things mining can be done in both places. The low prices of high end minerals of course has happened over years and were already depressed well before the recent changes to barges.

Going to put out a scenario here that I would like to see:

One day CCP decides that all minerals should be mined. No minerals from reprocessing rat droppings and no minerals from hauler spawns. Every single mineral in game has to be mined by a miner. How cool would that be. Alliances and corporations will then have the ability to disrupt industrial operations as a valid war tactic. This sounds like a win to me.

Question: Are todays mining barges up to the task of filling the demand that reprocessed rat droppings and hauler spawns previously filled? If not, under this scenario at least, it appears mining barges are not powerful enough.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#224 - 2012-10-05 03:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Olleybear wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

It is curious that when confronted with the truth of null benefitting equally from the mining buff and the lower mineral prices for "rare minerals" that have resulted that you choose to no longer ply curiosity to this effect, and instead revert to, "No, they are not!"


We agree that mining benefits between both Null and High sec are nearly identical and most things mining can be done in both places. The low prices of high end minerals of course has happened over years and were already depressed well before the recent changes to barges.

Going to put out a scenario here that I would like to see:

One day CCP decides that all minerals should be mined. No minerals from reprocessing rat droppings and no minerals from hauler spawns. Every single mineral in game has to be mined by a miner. How cool would that be. Alliances and corporations will then have the ability to disrupt industrial operations as a valid war tactic. This sounds like a win to me.

Question: Are todays mining barges up to the task of filling the demand that reprocessed rat droppings and hauler spawns previously filled? If not, under this scenario at least, it appears mining barges are not powerful enough.

You continue to move the bar, Olley. You asked me, as though you thought it were pretty significant:

Olleybear wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that no one, that I have noticed anyway, says a thing about the low prices of high end minerals which mostly come from Null. Megacyte, Zydrine, and Morphite are laughably low when their prices are viewed over the span of years. Why is nothing said about this 'travesty'? Perhaps it is because of who is profiting. Personally, I find that interesting.


The post I quoted prior to this, though, hand waves that all away as being from something else (and unimportant at that).

I'm a little suspicious of your intentions at this point, and question whether or not you are interested in the health of the game or your own ease of profit.

In a sci-fi spaceship game I think it's cool that stuff can be melted down.

I do think that junk PVE drops are stupid, though, and should at least provide something in the way of minerals. Cool

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Olleybear
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#225 - 2012-10-05 03:52:33 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Olleybear wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that no one, that I have noticed anyway, says a thing about the low prices of high end minerals which mostly come from Null. Megacyte, Zydrine, and Morphite are laughably low when their prices are viewed over the span of years. Why is nothing said about this 'travesty'? Perhaps it is because of who is profiting. Personally, I find that interesting.


The post I quoted prior to this, though, hand waves that all away as being from something else.

I'm a little suspicious of your intentions at this point, and question whether or not you are interested in the health of the game or your own ease of profit.

In a sci-fi spaceship game I think it's cool that stuff can be melted down.

I do think that junk PVE drops are stupid, though, and should at least provide something in the way of minerals. Cool


No hand waving or bar moving on my end. The question of who is profiting from being nearly the sole provider of high end minerals, no matter their price, is significant. So is the question of why no one is complaining about the high ends. Simply put, Null sec is profiting.

No one is complaining about barges in Null. No one is complaining about hauler spawns in Null nor the amount of minerals that can be gathered by reprocessing rat droppings out in Null or how both are adding minerals to New Eden. Not even high sec miners. We do not have a problem with Null, but Null and Low have a problem with us.

The complaints are one way and the complaints are that it is now both harder to gank a miner and not profitable to gank a miner. Neither are vaild arguments for lowering yield or hitpoints on barges.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.
Pipa Porto
#226 - 2012-10-05 04:03:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
TharOkha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

So what significant risk do miners take when mining*? You didn't actually answer the question.
.

They can be suicide ganked (i answered this question to you gazzilion times).


Significant risk. Suicide Ganking is no longer a significant risk to HS miners (with a conservative estimate of ~1700 for the size of the HS mining fleet, the risk is under 500k ISK/hr*).


Quote:
Quote:
*FYI, without profitable ganking, there is no industrial scale ganking, and therefor no significant risk from ganking.
Well they can be suicide ganked if they fit expensive fit.... as well as l4 mission runers.....as well as freighter pilots with billions in their cargo (also answered gazzilion times).


Except that unlike Mission runners and Freighter pilots, they give up nothing by fitting cheaply.
They give up nothing by flying a Mack over a Skiff.
They give up nothing for their safety.


EDIT:
*Amortized since the beginning of HAG this year. So that's including all HAG kills.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#227 - 2012-10-05 04:11:22 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
baltec wrote:
...more waffle about TANKING to prevent the GANKING...


s'pose MinerMan tanks like you say he should. ganking still gonna be unprofitable.

what then? then he got too many slots?

so i'm guessing this entire "make my gank easy" charade is purely for educational purposes?

unless...

you displaying a new kind of stupid for telling miners to tank in a "i can't gank anymore sob" whiney thread.


What then? Why then miner man has made a choice and sacrificed something for their tank. The miners who choose not to tank get ganked, and the miners who pay attention get an advantage over the other two categories.

Have you not noticed that people involved in ganking have spent a lot of effort explaining (ad nauseaum) specifically how to counter their tactics? Only to be pooh-poohed because those counters either required effort (OH, God, the Horror) or that the miner sacrifice some precious yield or cargo space (Even worse, by Jove).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#228 - 2012-10-05 04:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Pipa Porto wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
baltec wrote:
...more waffle about TANKING to prevent the GANKING...


s'pose MinerMan tanks like you say he should. ganking still gonna be unprofitable.

what then? then he got too many slots?

so i'm guessing this entire "make my gank easy" charade is purely for educational purposes?

unless...

you displaying a new kind of stupid for telling miners to tank in a "i can't gank anymore sob" whiney thread.


What then? Why then miner man has made a choice and sacrificed something for their tank. The miners who choose not to tank get ganked, and the miners who pay attention get an advantage over the other two categories.

Have you not noticed that people involved in ganking have spent a lot of effort explaining (ad nauseaum) specifically how to counter their tactics? Only to be pooh-poohed because those counters either required effort (OH, God, the Horror) or that the miner sacrifice some precious yield or cargo space (Even worse, by Jove).

This is where all their arguments lose their strength and we're left with the bare truth:

We are two disparate groups, one of which has been asked to adapt repeatedly and has yet to fail to rise to the challenge, and another which has been asked to adapt repeatedly but God had to step in because they wouldn't do it.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#229 - 2012-10-05 04:17:01 UTC
I had always thought that gankers were too cowardly to engage in real pvp thus they had to prey upon unarmed ships and these whine threads confirm that. Wahhh. You tough talking wannabe's always told high sec dwellers to l2p or adapt, well take your own advice, adapt. It would be foolish of CCP in terms of credibility to back peddle and reverse the buffs to barges because the psuedo-pvp crowd whines on the forums. These changes brought long overdue balance to these ships. So ganking now is a challenge that I guess you are not up for, there there, it will be ok, wipe away those tears.
Pipa Porto
#230 - 2012-10-05 04:18:18 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

No they say your ship should not be tanked just by default. Leaving all slots empty should not meant your exhumer is tanked


Battleships used in L4 missions are also tanked by default againist catalyst (all slots empty). Now are you going to whine that "nerf BS HP because they shouldnt be tanked just by default?


That's cause they're T1 ships.
Unfitted Mining Barges can't be profitably ganked either.

Now let's look at proper comparison.
T2 Cruisers can be profitably ganked if unfit (much easier than profitably ganking a Hulk, in fact). If fit like a standard Hulk (all T2 DPS mods/guns, no significant tank), they're even more profitable than Hulks are. Fortunately for them, their pilots aren't brain dead and thus they're usually flown with a tank (most of the time right around 30k EHP which, funnily enough, is about where the Hulk could go pre-buff).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#231 - 2012-10-05 04:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Bunnie Hop wrote:
I had always thought that gankers were too cowardly to engage in real pvp thus they had to prey upon unarmed ships and these whine threads confirm that. Wahhh. You tough talking wannabe's always told high sec dwellers to l2p or adapt, well take your own advice, adapt. It would be foolish of CCP in terms of credibility to back peddle and reverse the buffs to barges because the psuedo-pvp crowd whines on the forums. These changes brought long overdue balance to these ships. So ganking now is a challenge that I guess you are not up for, there there, it will be ok, wipe away those tears.

Only if by balance you mean near-total invulnerability in the face of CONCORD response times. Roll

[Edit] In the second highest-yield first highest-ore bay ship, no less. That's totally balanced.

No choice required.[/Edit]

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#232 - 2012-10-05 04:21:24 UTC
Bunnie Hop wrote:
These changes brought long overdue balance to these ships.


The only thing these changes did was reaffirm that many highsec miners are too stupid to take the precautions that would help mitigate the risk of a gank. Ganking exhumers with destroyers was only profitable because the victims made it profitable.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#233 - 2012-10-05 04:23:09 UTC
captain foivos wrote:
Update: CCP has once again shat on ganking in order to turn highsec into a risk-free carebear paradise.

Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.

Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.


Yay for ganking nerfs in hi-sec.

Eve still belongs to the violent, the venal and the brilliant. Out in the ghetto and beyond.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#234 - 2012-10-05 04:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Bunnie Hop
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
These changes brought long overdue balance to these ships.


The only thing these changes did was reaffirm that many highsec miners are too stupid to take the precautions that would help mitigate the risk of a gank. Ganking exhumers with destroyers was only profitable because the victims made it profitable.



Thats a fallacy that the forum warriors try hard to keep perpetuating. No matter how mining barges were tanked pre-patch they were always easy targets.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#235 - 2012-10-05 04:27:21 UTC
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
These changes brought long overdue balance to these ships.


The only thing these changes did was reaffirm that many highsec miners are too stupid to take the precautions that would help mitigate the risk of a gank. Ganking exhumers with destroyers was only profitable because the victims made it profitable.



Thats a fallacy that the forum warriors try hard to keep perpetuating. No matter how hulks were tanked pre-patch they were always easy targets.

No they weren't. They required more alpha, therefore a larger contingency of dessies. Which wasn't always a given.

So often a tanked Hulk survived a gank attempt, pre-buff, unless it was overwhelming, in which case a) that wasn't profitable and b) it can obviously still be done with some more scale.

The only real reason miners are easy targets is that they refuse to adapt in any way other than crying, "No, you!"

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#236 - 2012-10-05 04:27:43 UTC
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
These changes brought long overdue balance to these ships.


The only thing these changes did was reaffirm that many highsec miners are too stupid to take the precautions that would help mitigate the risk of a gank. Ganking exhumers with destroyers was only profitable because the victims made it profitable.



Thats a fallacy that the forum warriors try hard to keep perpetuating. No matter how hulks were tanked pre-patch they were always easy targets.

No, they weren't. I even posted more than one strategy about how to mine in total safety, some of which didn't even involve tanking your ship at all. How many miners actually did this, and how many argued with me about how it wasn't possible without ever trying it themselves?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Pipa Porto
#237 - 2012-10-05 04:29:59 UTC
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
These changes brought long overdue balance to these ships.


The only thing these changes did was reaffirm that many highsec miners are too stupid to take the precautions that would help mitigate the risk of a gank. Ganking exhumers with destroyers was only profitable because the victims made it profitable.



Thats a fallacy that the forum warriors try hard to keep perpetuating. No matter how mining barges were tanked pre-patch they were always easy targets.


Wrong. 3 webs in the mids made a pair of Hulks all but uncatchable (thus ungankable). A proper tank made a Hulk impossible to gank profitably. A proper tank made a Mack impossible to gank profitably in higher sec Ice fields (which are indistinguishable from lower sec ones).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#238 - 2012-10-05 04:37:31 UTC
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
These changes brought long overdue balance to these ships.


The only thing these changes did was reaffirm that many highsec miners are too stupid to take the precautions that would help mitigate the risk of a gank. Ganking exhumers with destroyers was only profitable because the victims made it profitable.



Thats a fallacy that the forum warriors try hard to keep perpetuating. No matter how mining barges were tanked pre-patch they were always easy targets.


Anything is an easy target when you think about it, but that's not what the changes were about. Miners made themselves profitable targets through laziness & stupidity. They refused to do the simple things that made them unworthy or unprofitable to the point where CCP handed them everything they wanted on a silver platter.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#239 - 2012-10-05 04:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Pipa Porto wrote:
A proper tank made a Mack impossible to gank profitably in higher sec Ice fields (which are indistinguishable from lower sec ones).


Names of those 0.9 and 1.0 systems with at least one ice field, now.

Ganking is challenge and requires effort. The fact that you aren't up to the challenge is irrelevant.

HTFU and adapt or stop playing.

Mallak Azaria wrote:
Anything is an easy target when you think about it


You guys still up to ganking my Damnation in 1.0 system?
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#240 - 2012-10-05 04:49:11 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
These changes brought long overdue balance to these ships.


The only thing these changes did was reaffirm that many highsec miners are too stupid to take the precautions that would help mitigate the risk of a gank. Ganking exhumers with destroyers was only profitable because the victims made it profitable.



Thats a fallacy that the forum warriors try hard to keep perpetuating. No matter how mining barges were tanked pre-patch they were always easy targets.


Anything is an easy target when you think about it, but that's not what the changes were about. Miners made themselves profitable targets through laziness & stupidity. They refused to do the simple things that made them unworthy or unprofitable to the point where CCP handed them everything they wanted on a silver platter.


There again thats the fallacy. There was little to nothing a miner could do to avoid being ganked and it was always profitable, even moreso considering that you guys paid to have them ganked (nice supply and demand manipulation though, the gankers thought they were part of something rather than just being tools). The actions of your alliance probably had more to do with the buff to mining barges than anything. Yet now here we are, having to read whining threads by gankers who have insulted miners for their supposed whine threads. Hypocrisy at its best but nothing new.