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Retribution's New Bounty System

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Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#201 - 2012-10-02 19:47:53 UTC
as long as i can put a bounty on myself so people actually want to fight instead of running 23/7

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#202 - 2012-10-02 19:57:48 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

But besides all the logic that explains why these two systems should go hand-in-hand, there's always the matter of all the players that talked to the devs at the recent press events and specifically reported the developers talking about sellable killrights being a component of the planned overhaul.

So yeah, I don't think threads like this are pointless at all. CCP may not have posted details yet to the public in an official thread or dev blog, but that doesn't mean the players shouldn't be sharing ideas and brainstorming - conversations like the ones that have taken place the last few pages very closely mirror the conversations we've had internally with CCP and so I'm very much interested in your perspectives and feedback.


I really think it should be payable/transferrable AND sellable if anything. Think of it this way:

"kate mosh shot and killed me!!! 30 mil for me to give you the kill rights!!! " /sell

"This noob came and killed me and I want revenge, but I am a miner! I will give you 5mil and the kill rights to take him down!" /pay

however if they make it possible to transfer for free as a "sale" and just send the bounty hunter isk as compensation, it could work

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#203 - 2012-10-02 20:04:06 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:


princess bride and elf!



Inconceivable!
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#204 - 2012-10-02 20:15:07 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
In other words, you're complaining that criminals will be in the exact same situation as suicide gank victims, never knowing who's going to attack them or when?

I'm trying to think of a reason not to say "Well suck it up then", but I can't.


Except that Suicide Gankers lose their ships. They get to say "Surprise" but it costs them their ship. People exercising kill rights do not lose anything.


Don't gank = no consequence (aka KIllright sold to merc)

Gank = consequence - aka expect someone to have as much fun as you did previously, the difference being the ganker is a CRIMINAL and the guy who bought that kill right represents JUSTICE.

Eve is harsh, eve is not easy for any one and should be harder in high sec for players choosing the criminal path in high sec.
If you want to kill ships/pods with total impugnity just move to null or low sec. If you stay in high sec and choose to be a criminal you must accept the consequences of your choice.

brb
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#205 - 2012-10-02 20:22:46 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
as long as i can put a bounty on myself so people actually want to fight instead of running 23/7



Try without POS kissing boosting alts and 10 friends with links poping everything passing through the gate. People fight when they actually might have a chance to fight, witch is different from "running 23/7".
Well stop blobing gates 23/7 and that might happen.

brb
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#206 - 2012-10-02 20:33:14 UTC
WTB Bounty on Pipa Porto Bear

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#207 - 2012-10-02 20:36:54 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
WTB Bounty on Pipa Porto Bear



I'll give you reps Lol

brb
Spirocles
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2012-10-02 21:30:36 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
honestly, Pipa, I'm really disappointed with you taking a stand against a shift to player-enforced consequences rather than yet another dreary CONCORD boost. Especially one that promotes the holy grails of solo PvP and hi-sec PvP. Is non consensual PvP only desirable when it's against players in defenceless non combat ships or something? You're sounding like the stereotype "gankbear" in the badposts about piracy and ganking. Stop feeding those guys lines for the love of God.


What's wrong with your targets being able to know they're being hunted, and be able to fight back?

Suicide Gank Victims can do both. Scouts/Dscan, and Guards work wonders to foil most suicide gank.

Blind Tradeable killright targets can't find out who's gunning from them and can't be effectively helped.


I think both of you have valid points. Pipa, if there were a function where you could pay X amount of ISK to Concord, an agent at multiple stations, a certain corp, to find out who had what bounties on you, and who the owner of your killrights were, would that not satisfy the "unknown hunter" aspect of your argument? It would be a way for you to find out all of the relevant information that you're concerned with, yet still give the BH style of gameplay to those that chose that path. Not only that, it would be another ISK sink as well. Similar to the system SWG had for BH'ing. I thought that was a good system and wish it would be implemented similarly elsewhere.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#209 - 2012-10-02 21:39:51 UTC
Spirocles wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
honestly, Pipa, I'm really disappointed with you taking a stand against a shift to player-enforced consequences rather than yet another dreary CONCORD boost. Especially one that promotes the holy grails of solo PvP and hi-sec PvP. Is non consensual PvP only desirable when it's against players in defenceless non combat ships or something? You're sounding like the stereotype "gankbear" in the badposts about piracy and ganking. Stop feeding those guys lines for the love of God.


What's wrong with your targets being able to know they're being hunted, and be able to fight back?

Suicide Gank Victims can do both. Scouts/Dscan, and Guards work wonders to foil most suicide gank.

Blind Tradeable killright targets can't find out who's gunning from them and can't be effectively helped.


I think both of you have valid points. Pipa, if there were a function where you could pay X amount of ISK to Concord, an agent at multiple stations, a certain corp, to find out who had what bounties on you, and who the owner of your killrights were, would that not satisfy the "unknown hunter" aspect of your argument? It would be a way for you to find out all of the relevant information that you're concerned with, yet still give the BH style of gameplay to those that chose that path. Not only that, it would be another ISK sink as well. Similar to the system SWG had for BH'ing. I thought that was a good system and wish it would be implemented similarly elsewhere.



The first victim can't pay concord to know when, where and by who is going to be gank, so why should the ganker (being THE CRIMINAL) get help from the police to ascape the consequence of his crime?

brb
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#210 - 2012-10-03 01:35:08 UTC
Reaper gI wrote:
(I was at the London meet)

[...]

Similarly a criminal could buy [kill rights] off their victim, so they didnt have to wait out the kill right (or lose a ship).

This is one of my favourite parts by the way
Herr Hammer Draken
#211 - 2012-10-03 05:34:25 UTC
It would be my guess because of the way kill rights work right now in code that the transfer and notification of the transfer of those kill rights would be easy to code into the game. Most likely scenario. Or some form of notification maybe a bit more involved. CCP could do a lot with this a mini game almost if they wanted.

But to add in a bit to allow the ganker to shoot back first without a concord action would not code well as you currently can not do that to a kill right holder. So that is asking for the moon I believe. I mean you can and always should ask for the moon then be happy with what you get, which if anything, it will be some form of the former in my opinion.

Still even the knowing at least of who is gunning for you is something and as soon as he fires you can then fire back. So it is not surprise in your face. Or it would be on the same level as the original gank was.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#212 - 2012-10-03 06:47:31 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:


Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button.



My new sig! ♥

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#213 - 2012-10-03 06:56:51 UTC
Seriously, when it gets Matrix to say something like that, you know that CCP are doing the right thing with this new bounty system. Pirate

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2012-10-03 07:31:54 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button.
My new sig! ♥
That's an old-time quote.

And I think it's non-consensual, rather than unconsensual.
Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
#215 - 2012-10-03 07:49:04 UTC
Why not make it so noone running and alt character or another account owned by the same person can collect on the bounty?
I'm sure its possible unless they have completely different IP addresses/email accounts and credit cards.

Exploration is Random. Random is Random... or is it?! http://docs.python.org/2/library/random.html
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#216 - 2012-10-03 07:49:26 UTC
I know it is. It's the fact that Matrix Skye said it that's remarkable.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2012-10-03 07:50:45 UTC
Hazen Koraka wrote:
Why not make it so noone running and alt character or another account owned by the same person can collect on the bounty?
I'm sure its possible unless they have completely different IP addresses/email accounts and credit cards.
Please catch up. The bounty system is changing. Using alts will become moot, because the payouts will not equal the ship that was lost.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#218 - 2012-10-03 08:33:53 UTC
Hazen Koraka wrote:
Why not make it so noone running and alt character or another account owned by the same person can collect on the bounty?
I'm sure its possible unless they have completely different IP addresses/email accounts and credit cards.


Payout per kill is going to be capped at 20-25% of the hull cost. If you're willing to spend 1.25 bill on ships to collect a 250M bounty, then go to it and good luck.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Pipa Porto
#219 - 2012-10-03 09:59:46 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Except no. What does a killright hunter fly? Anything. What's their name? Anything. There's nothing to d-scan for. There's nobody to look for in local. There's nothing to stay alert for. The killright hunter has a game mechanically enforced element of surprise that the target cannot overcome.

Except yes. Watch out for HACs, HICs, fast ships, ships normally flown by PVPers. You yourself should fly in fast ships. Being this is a PVP game be ready to PVP at a moment's notice. Don't fly ships you can't afford to lose. Learn who the bounty hunters are and add them to your contacts list. Fly with friends. The sooner you realize hi sec isn't safe the better. Also, stay aligned. Stay away from congested systems.

Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button.


There's the rub. In HS, unconsensual, surprise PvP costs the attacker their ship. Why should the killright hunter get to keep theirs?
Why shouldn't the defender be able to fight back effectively? A suicide gank victim's friends can effectively fight a suicide gank. A killright defender's friends can't.
A suicide gank victim can tell at a glance that someone's hunting them (a half dozen destroyers isn't exactly subtle). A killright defender can't (any ship).
A suicide ganker has to deal with the fitting constraint of losing their ship. A killright purchaser has no such constraint.

In other words, a potential suicide gank victim has plenty of effective ways to avoid or thwart the suicide gank. Someone with a blind transferred killright against them does not.

Again (for the fifth time), I'm not against transferable killrights. I'm against the free, risk free HS ganks, with no effective retaliation possible, that blind transferrable killright represent.

Quote:
Quote:
A Gank victim simply needs to set up a short range d-scan and look out for a half dozen destroyers or a couple tier 3s popping up on it.

Same for the killrights victim. Be on the lookout for well-known and established bounty hunters. And remember that you are not meant to be 100% safe, even in hi sec.

Most importantly, remember that you choose to generate a killright. You choose to undock. You choose to fly to congested systems where you may be ambushed. You choose what ships to fly. Don't like the heat, then stay out of the kitchen... Or docked. And stop generating killrights if you don't like the consequences.


Where did I suggest that HS should be safe? What distinguishes a person with a killright in local the way low sec status distinguishes successful suicide gankers?

There's no need for the system to be congested to be ambushed with blind transferable killrights, as there is no way to tell who owns your killright.

Again, I'm happy to have people who have killrights against me come at me. I'm asking why the people buying the killrights should have the benefit of surprise and first strike mechanically guaranteed and why they should have the benefit of overwhelming firepower and the knowledge that they're not walking into a trap.

Another thing to note is that buying a killright would give that purchaser an advantage in prosecuting that killright over the original owner. How does that make sense?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#220 - 2012-10-03 10:05:11 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
In other words, you're complaining that criminals will be in the exact same situation as suicide gank victims, never knowing who's going to attack them or when?

I'm trying to think of a reason not to say "Well suck it up then", but I can't.


Except that Suicide Gankers lose their ships. They get to say "Surprise" but it costs them their ship. People exercising kill rights do not lose anything.


Don't gank = no consequence (aka KIllright sold to merc)

Gank = consequence - aka expect someone to have as much fun as you did previously, the difference being the ganker is a CRIMINAL and the guy who bought that kill right represents JUSTICE.

Eve is harsh, eve is not easy for any one and should be harder in high sec for players choosing the criminal path in high sec.
If you want to kill ships/pods with total impugnity just move to null or low sec. If you stay in high sec and choose to be a criminal you must accept the consequences of your choice.


Since you insist on bringing up morality, why should an uninvolved third party get to shoot anyone in HS without consequence?

By the way, I do live in Lowsec. Transferable killrights (blind and broken or otherwise) will not affect me.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto