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Retribution's New Bounty System

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Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-10-01 00:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2012/09/retribution-bounties.html

I've yet to see a bounty-like system implemented in any MMO that wasn't made pointless via exploits.

I hold out little hope that CCP is going to be able to solve this problem, where so many others have failed. But I'm interested in seeing them try, nonetheless. I would like to see them succeed. They do seem committed to success.

The current bounty system is made useless because of alt characters. Put a 100M bounty on someone, that someone is going to collect his own bounty with an alt. Blown up and podded in a naked clone flying a rookie ship. Putting a bounty on someone is giving that someone free money.

Every bounty system I've seen is made moot due to alts.

There's little in the way of information yet on CCP's re-implementation of bounties. And nothing yet from the CSM, other than to confirm that this is the team they're working with directly, the stakeholder pilot project. A risky project to hang your hat from, for sure. CSM7 may sink or swim depending on how solid or riddled with holes the new bounty program turns out to be. Being a stakeholder means having had direct influence on the design and development of this new mechanic. So if bounties turn out to be awesome, CSM will deserve some measure of credit along with CCP. If it turns out to be a dud, CSM will deserve ridicule and scorn in equal measure to CCP. (If the new mechanic does turn out to be a failure, I hope that the CSM will not turn on CCP in an attempt to save their own skins, that they'll cowboy-up and accept their portion of responsibility.)

So, the EVE London Meet was this weekend. A few devs attended. And during the drunken festivities a couple tidbits about the new Retribution expansion (the winter expansion) made their way to news sources.

The following concerns bounties: "Redoing bounties: Instead of the current system, put a bounty on anyone, corp or alliance. On ships as well as pods. A percentage calculation is involved."

A tad vague, but just enough, perhaps, to build a bit of a picture on what we should expect bounties to be.

You'll be able to set bounties on characters. You'll be able to set bounties on the members of corporations. Bounties on the members of alliances. You'll be able to set bounties on ships types (maybe even ship classes). You'll be able to set bounties on pods.

Unlike the current system, where if you pod a specific character, you collect the entire bounty, in the new system the bounty is a pool of ISK. When you meet the bounty requirements, you pull an amount of ISK equal to a percentage of the kill. That's how I'm reading this new system. (I could be way off base.)

For instance, you set a 5B ISK bounty on EVE University. If anyone kills a member of EVE University, they get some percentage of the kill's value. Let's say that percentage is 50%. So if an EVE University Hulk is killed and it is worth 250M ISK, the killer would collect 125M ISK. The bounty pool of 5B would be reduced by that 125M ISK.

This seems to solve the alt problem. Someone can use an alt to kill the character with the bounty on its head, but the alt would never collect more than what the kill was worth. There's no longer any profit to be made.

There may still be holes in the mechanic to be found. If there are, certainly Goonswarm will be one of the first organizations to take advantage of them (see faction warfare.)

The new bounty system looks to be promising, at any rate. And if it ends up being what we all hope, a very fine addition to EVE Online will it be.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#2 - 2012-10-01 00:32:03 UTC
I hope a dev blog comes out about this soon so we're not innundated by these threads.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

CaptainFalcon07
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#3 - 2012-10-01 00:34:28 UTC
This is a solution that would work. There would simply be no way for the bounty to make any profit or cash out, if he has to lose ships and modules and gain only 50% of it back.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-10-01 00:35:04 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
I hope a dev blog comes out about this soon so we're not innundated by these threads.
I will be proven (mostly) correct! Cool
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5 - 2012-10-01 00:37:54 UTC
SWG (pre-nge) had a great bounty hunter system.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-10-01 00:39:03 UTC
OP's shirt is too small

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#7 - 2012-10-01 00:40:49 UTC
It would be nice if you could restrict who has access to the bounties you set (if you want to set up an internal corp bounty system), or in some way share kill rights as part of the bounty system (setting a bounty on that guy who ganked you won't do much good if nobody can shoot him because highsec).
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#8 - 2012-10-01 00:41:03 UTC
I vote for:
Here comes the new bounty system, just like the old bounty system.
Selinate
#9 - 2012-10-01 00:41:22 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
OP's shirt is too small


Also, scoliosis.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-10-01 00:42:02 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
OP's shirt is too small
I didn't read the tag. Was supposed to hang it to dry.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-10-01 00:43:11 UTC
Selinate wrote:
Also, scoliosis.
No. One boob is bigger than the other, which shifts my weight.
Selinate
#12 - 2012-10-01 00:51:25 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Selinate wrote:
Also, scoliosis.
No. One boob is bigger than the other, which shifts my weight.


You'll do well here.
Pipa Porto
#13 - 2012-10-01 00:56:46 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
This seems to solve the alt problem. Someone can use an alt to kill the character with the bounty on its head, but the alt would never collect more than what the kill was worth. There's no longer any profit to be made.


Wait till you've collected enough bounties and manipulate EVE's market value calculation. So long as there are useless items that are effectively untraded, you can manipulate them quite cheaply then blow them up for profit a la FW FOREX.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-10-01 01:00:06 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Wait till you've collected enough bounties and manipulate EVE's market value calculation. So long as there are useless items that are effectively untraded, you can manipulate them quite cheaply then blow them up for profit a la FW FOREX.
Sure, over a three month time span. And assuming that 50 other people don't get the same idea, turning those useless items into useful items.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#15 - 2012-10-01 01:00:17 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
This seems to solve the alt problem. Someone can use an alt to kill the character with the bounty on its head, but the alt would never collect more than what the kill was worth. There's no longer any profit to be made.


Wait till you've collected enough bounties and manipulate EVE's market value calculation. So long as there are useless items that are effectively untraded, you can manipulate them quite cheaply then blow them up for profit a la FW FOREX.


Yeah, good luck with that ;) CCP has changed quite a few things behind the scenes in the wake of the FW exploit, in order to specifically prevent that type of manipulation.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Pipa Porto
#16 - 2012-10-01 01:05:57 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
This seems to solve the alt problem. Someone can use an alt to kill the character with the bounty on its head, but the alt would never collect more than what the kill was worth. There's no longer any profit to be made.


Wait till you've collected enough bounties and manipulate EVE's market value calculation. So long as there are useless items that are effectively untraded, you can manipulate them quite cheaply then blow them up for profit a la FW FOREX.


Yeah, good luck with that ;) CCP has changed quite a few things behind the scenes in the wake of the FW exploit, in order to specifically prevent that type of manipulation.


So long as Eve's market value estimation takes trades into account and there are useless items, it will be possible to manipulate it. Basing payments on that market value estimation incentivises that manipulation.


Care to tell us more about how you want to disenfranchise voters who's views you disagree with? It's funny how you've run screaming away from the defining issue of the CSM 7.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#17 - 2012-10-01 01:11:56 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
This seems to solve the alt problem. Someone can use an alt to kill the character with the bounty on its head, but the alt would never collect more than what the kill was worth. There's no longer any profit to be made.


Wait till you've collected enough bounties and manipulate EVE's market value calculation. So long as there are useless items that are effectively untraded, you can manipulate them quite cheaply then blow them up for profit a la FW FOREX.


Yeah, good luck with that ;) CCP has changed quite a few things behind the scenes in the wake of the FW exploit, in order to specifically prevent that type of manipulation.


So long as Eve's market value estimation takes trades into account and there are useless items, it will be possible to manipulate it. Basing payments on that market value estimation incentivises that manipulation.


Care to tell us more about how you want to disenfranchise voters who's views you disagree with? It's funny how you've run screaming away from the defining issue of the CSM 7.


I really don't care about voting reform. That's between the players and CCP Xhagen to work out, and CCP Xhagen has already mentioned that Trebor's proposal is dead on arrival. You're welcome to continue making an issue out of it, but I won't be.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Pipa Porto
#18 - 2012-10-01 01:24:14 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I really don't care about voting reform. That's between the players and CCP Xhagen to work out, and CCP Xhagen has already mentioned that Trebor's proposal is dead on arrival. You're welcome to continue making an issue out of it, but I won't be.


DOA or not, you defended it. Why do you want to disenfranchise voters who disagree with you?


Anyway, the other big problem with bounties based on destroyed value is that they don't change behavior in the individual case.
In Lowsec and Nullsec, the guy with the bounty is going to die or not for reasons totally unrelated to the bounty on his head.
In Highsec, you're talking about suicide ganking, but now you have to calculate the dropped value plus the percentage on the destroyed value all while deciding to suicide gank someone who's likely in a fast ship.
In none of these cases is having a high total bounty at all dangerous (because each person who kills you only gets a small bounty).


The possibility of fixed bounties on ship hulls and corp members are more useful. Automating the paying your corpmates (or everyone) to gank Hulks or paying your corpmates to kill your rivals and such is potentially very useful. But that's fundamentally similar to the current system.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-10-01 01:48:27 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I really don't care about voting reform. That's between the players and CCP Xhagen to work out, and CCP Xhagen has already mentioned that Trebor's proposal is dead on arrival. You're welcome to continue making an issue out of it, but I won't be.
Anyway, the other big problem with bounties based on destroyed value is that they don't change behavior in the individual case.
In Lowsec and Nullsec, the guy with the bounty is going to die or not for reasons totally unrelated to the bounty on his head.
In Highsec, you're talking about suicide ganking, but now you have to calculate the dropped value plus the percentage on the destroyed value all while deciding to suicide gank someone who's likely in a fast ship.
In none of these cases is having a high total bounty at all dangerous (because each person who kills you only gets a small bounty).
Have at it. If it's exploitable, exploit it.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#20 - 2012-10-01 01:51:12 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
In Highsec, you're talking about suicide ganking


It's safe to say this is a major assumption at this point. Twisted

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

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