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[I-RED] Public Release: Dissolution of Cal-Matari Program

Author
Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
#21 - 2012-10-01 00:15:19 UTC
Amaki Mai wrote:
Horak Thor wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Horak Thor wrote:
I believe the Caldari and Minmatar have alot in common

Wrong.
And please don't compare superior Caldari with these primitive savages.


You wonder why diplomatic communications and partnered efforts have failed and this is your attitude. If your entire vision wasn't obscured by Amarrian backside you could withdraw your tounge and stop being an Amarrian puppet. (stop licking their ass)


Diana Kim is an ethnic Caldari currently employed by the State Protectorate. She is rabidly pro-Caldari and rarely supports the Amarr publicly except where they are fighting against a shared enemy. She has rarely been accused of being anything other than a Caldari patriot or a Gallente plant.

Your belief that someone has to be pro-Amarr to see anything but the best in the Matari is a symptom of a wider problem, I think.



And this arguement can be stopped right here, i fight Diana regularly in Minmatar/Amarr space, she fleets or did once upon a time purely with Amarr being generally the only caldari in fleet, she has a history of fighting for the 24th crusade, against mainly tlf.

You speak from a position of ignorance i suggest you withdraw.

.....

John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#22 - 2012-10-01 00:29:41 UTC
A shame that this program must end after so many years of effort, but I too have noted the recent behavior of the Matari capsuleer organizations and their hostile nature toward free-trade entities such as Ishukone, and its subsidiaries. Even after many had given up, you continued to push on till the end, for that you have my support in this decision.

Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#23 - 2012-10-01 03:55:37 UTC
Korsavius wrote:
The Minmatar are too self-righteous to accept any genuine assistance we have to offer. They wish to strive for self-determination in this big, dangerous cluster, then so be it.


This from the person who is ending the aid program because his ego was bruised.

I am deeply ashamed I ever had anything to do with the lot of you.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation
#24 - 2012-10-01 04:33:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Korsavius
I had hoped our conversation tonight would have cleared up any confusion as to why I terminated the program, Ava. The reasons for doing so are vast, but can simply be attributed to the fact that the Minmatar don't want help. If you really want every reason, you know how to contact me.

Its really quite disturbing and unfortunate to see you respond like this.

Cold Wind's Blade || Follow the I-RED Newsfeed & visit the I-RED GalNet site!

John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#25 - 2012-10-01 05:34:48 UTC
Korsavius wrote:
Its really quite disturbing and unfortunate to see you respond like this.


But not that surprising.

Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."

Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-10-01 05:57:48 UTC
Stitcher, I thought long and hard before replying before I remembered that I have been witness to better minds than mine try to engage you in debate on this subject. The problem is a fundamental disagreement of ethics and I don't see how to move past that.

On a personal level the only thing, the only one mark you, that makes Slavery ethically acceptable is my belief that the Reclaiming is DEMANDED, not justified or permitted or even mandated but demanded, by my God as the sole and only means of bringing the Fallen back to a state of righteousness.

I think that without that core belief I would agree with you, but there it is, staring me in the face. I do believe, I neither wish to nor feel I could abandon my Faith and it is a Faith that is shared by a sizable percentage of the Cluster. It is not the fruit of Schizophrenia or any other mental sickness and if you wish to destroy the foundations underpinning Slavery within the Kingdom and the Empire, then you must seek to prove that the teachings of the Reclamation are NOT the Will of God.

At least there's a concrete objective that could lead to your goal and I hope that the gift of that is more valuable than another pages-long diatribe of arguments proceeding from an ethical foundation that you neither share nor understand.
Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-10-01 06:22:55 UTC
Horak Thor wrote:
And this arguement can be stopped right here, i fight Diana regularly in Minmatar/Amarr space, she fleets or did once upon a time purely with Amarr being generally the only caldari in fleet, she has a history of fighting for the 24th crusade, against mainly tlf.

You speak from a position of ignorance i suggest you withdraw.


Given the enormous profits enjoyed by successful fighters on either side, there could more easily be a fiscal advantage to her participation than a moral one.

Really. The only time I've heard her say nice things about US is when she compares us to YOU.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#28 - 2012-10-01 07:08:27 UTC
Diana Kim was fighting for the Amarr long before the Empires started paying their militias.
Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-10-01 07:20:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Amaki Mai
Okay, there may well be more to this than it seems at face value. I'll withdraw, as Mr Horak suggested.
Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
#30 - 2012-10-01 07:56:29 UTC
Amaki Mai wrote:
Okay, there may well be more to this than it seems at face value. I'll withdraw, as Mr Hord suggested.


Yes you really should look into Diana Kim's history, to call her a state patriot is laughable, she is an Amarrian play thing and has been for years. The odd venture into state protectorate forces won't change that.

.....

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-10-01 08:03:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Amaki Mai wrote:
I think that without that core belief I would agree with you, but there it is, staring me in the face. I do believe, I neither wish to nor feel I could abandon my Faith and it is a Faith that is shared by a sizable percentage of the Cluster. It is not the fruit of Schizophrenia or any other mental sickness and if you wish to destroy the foundations underpinning Slavery within the Kingdom and the Empire, then you must seek to prove that the teachings of the Reclamation are NOT the Will of God.


It's that last sentence which is the problem - the logic is backwards. We need to be absolutely clear on this: the burden of proof that your god has demanded such a thing lies with you.

It is simply not possible for me to prove that it didn't happen. If, on the other hand, it DID happen then it should be relatively easy to prove. As it is you have only the words of a single scriptural archive, and the assurances of a priesthood who profit enormously from slavery.

Has god delivered this demand to you personally? If not, then you have no assurance that he issued any such demand. For all you know it's entirely probable that the powerful and wealthy people of the Empire, who became powerful and wealthy by being slave owners, invented the theology of Reclamation through slavery as a justification to permit them to continue the practice in an age of evolving moral standards, with god content to sit in the background shaking his omnipotent head and content to dish out post-mortem justice rather than step in and correct the wrong personally. Or, more likely, a fiction who couldn't do even that. Even if he had spoken to you in person, could you prove to me that he had? In a way that was distinguishable from wishful thinking, delusion or an outright lie?

I know you've got some functioning level of skepticism, or else every visit to a market hub would result in you snapping up the contracts being spammed in the local channel because of their excellent deals and then being perpetually confused and upset because you got a Tengu frame and five skillbooks rather than a fully fit strategic cruiser. You are capable of assuming that you're being lied to or exploited. Have you ever thought to apply those same instincts to the matter of your faith in divinely-mandated slavery? Have you not, even once, asked yourself "hey, what if the reason we have slavery is simple human greed?"

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-10-01 08:41:12 UTC
I understand your premise in logical terms, the burden of proof, the scientific method - but nobody elses belief systems work that way, Stitcher. Mine don't, the Caldari's don't. Theological arguments yield to SPECIFIC proofs, not to a demand to prove themselves.

Besides which, accepted thought always has right of way. If you want to change the way that people think then you have to change something for THEM. I'm not a scientist, I've never claimed to be. I'm also not a priest. I have thousands upon thousands of years of liturgical precedent, but really this hinges on people I trust telling me that something works a certain way and someone I barely know telling me they're wrong. Think on that. You're telling me that my parents and every authority figure in my life is WRONG, don't you think that I deserve a little proof?

Are you serious about wanting to actually fix the problem, or do you just want to be in the right?
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#33 - 2012-10-01 10:31:53 UTC
As fascinating as this cultural analysis is, would anyone care to enlighten this ignorant savage on the matter of what exactly has prompted this decision by I-RED? The 'what' is clear enough, the 'why' is vague at best.

Is this some sort of fall out over the Cartel raids, or something coming from the Capsuleer organisations? Or is it over something else entirely?

http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/

The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.  Join channel JORIS to learn more!

Astroyka
IXXAXAAR
#34 - 2012-10-01 10:44:59 UTC
Ugleb wrote:
As fascinating as this cultural analysis is, would anyone care to enlighten this ignorant savage on the matter of what exactly has prompted this decision by I-RED? The 'what' is clear enough, the 'why' is vague at best.

Is this some sort of fall out over the Cartel raids, or something coming from the Capsuleer organisations? Or is it over something else entirely?


I too would like clarification Ugleb, losing any support for the Matari cause is sad.

Astroyka

A New Eden pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden

www.astroyka.net

@Astroyka

Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation
#35 - 2012-10-01 10:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Korsavius
Ugleb wrote:
As fascinating as this cultural analysis is, would anyone care to enlighten this ignorant savage on the matter of what exactly has prompted this decision by I-RED? The 'what' is clear enough, the 'why' is vague at best.

Is this some sort of fall out over the Cartel raids, or something coming from the Capsuleer organisations? Or is it over something else entirely?


The decision to terminate the program was not one made by I-RED, but my myself, overseer of the program's day-to-day operations.

There are various factors that played into the program's termination. A large percentage of Minmatar simply refused any interaction with the Cal-Matari Program, and even insulted the integrity of our actions. If our assistance and cooperation is not wanted, then we will honor such a decision. Additionally, the Cal-Matari Program was beginning to prove to be a financial burden I-RED cannot afford to contribute to. Various business contracts established via the program helped ease the financial burden, as well as the rare ISK donation, but these methods were not substantial enough to counter-act the drain on our funds. With our current deployment, as well as continued growth and influence in Syndicate, I-RED simply cannot afford to maintain the program and all it's divisions - our resources are stretched too far as it is. I greatly underestimated the financial strain the program would have on I-RED. Furthermore, the Republic government under Shakor consistently proved problematic for the Cal-Matari Program. Unwarranted search and seizures of Cal-Matari transport vessels were quite frequent. This, to me, is another clear indication that the Cal-Matari Program is not wanted.

I hope I made the reasoning behind the decision clear now.

Cold Wind's Blade || Follow the I-RED Newsfeed & visit the I-RED GalNet site!

Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#36 - 2012-10-01 11:54:59 UTC
Amaki Mai wrote:

Given the enormous profits enjoyed by successful fighters on either side, there could more easily be a fiscal advantage to her participation than a moral one.

Just for clarification: I don't pursue moral or fiscal advantages when I am joining a fleet.
I'm joining fleets to destroy enemies of the State.
And I don't care, whom I join to for this, would it be allies, pirates or another enemy.
What I seek is destruction of enemy.
By any means necessary.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
#37 - 2012-10-01 13:54:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Stitcher wrote:
You are honestly going to sit there and say that a slave is free to advance in the ranks of the Amarr Empire? You don't earn freedom in the Empire - they condescend to loosen your physical chains once you've accepted having your mind and soul shackled instead, that's all.

Please don't insult your own people by comparing the Meritocracy with the backwards philosophy of the Amarr.


Yes I am going to sit there and say that a slave is free to advance in the ranks of the Amarr Empire, and I am going to continue sitting here and telling you that if you disagree with me, you are stupid and wrong. You clearly don't speak to many slaves; I do. There is a very clear reason why the majority of slaves who earn their freedom stay in Amarr, rather than fleeing to the Republic, that bastion of freedom open to supposedly all...

That reason is, if they sought "freedom" among their kin, rather than their former owners, and dared retain elements of their former culture, they'd be beaten to death as outcasts like Abel Jarek. Some freedom that is. The chance for freedom in Amarr society is greater for a freed slave than it is among their kin because they already fit Amarr society, and know how to navigate it. Look at the Ni-Kunni; once, most were slaves, now, most are free, and contributing much to greater Amarr.

Please don't insult OUR own people with your ignorance of reality...
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#38 - 2012-10-01 14:23:45 UTC
I'm very sorry to read that you have had to end this program, but I understand your reasoning. The approach of large numbers of Matari capsuleers on our borders has given me concerns as well. For the moment they seem mostly interested in farming what profits they can from the warzone, but I fear that they will aggress sooner or later.

This said, I do have hopes that we will one day come to find a lasting peace. If you have assets specific to your venture that you are looking to liquidate, please let me know.
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#39 - 2012-10-01 16:30:10 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
I'm very sorry to read that you have had to end this program, but I understand your reasoning. The approach of large numbers of Matari capsuleers on our borders has given me concerns as well. For the moment they seem mostly interested in farming what profits they can from the warzone, but I fear that they will aggress sooner or later.

This said, I do have hopes that we will one day come to find a lasting peace. If you have assets specific to your venture that you are looking to liquidate, please let me know.

About minmatar capsuleers 'farming profits'.
Actually, they are attacking caldari military installations in order to capture systems. What they do, is a direct offense against the State. Just check battle logs, if you are interested, and you will find out, that there are even more minmatars attacking our installations, than gallentean.
Right now, these minmatars are used as a meat shield, as a cannon fodder by gallenteans. These primitives are easy controlled and mentally enslaved by rotten gallentean egocentric ideals. But their weak minds is their own problem.
I will put them out of their misery.
With fire.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-10-01 19:48:21 UTC
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:
There is a very clear reason why the majority of slaves who earn their freedom stay in Amarr, rather than fleeing to the Republic...


Yes. It's called indoctrination.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders