These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

ECM is Killing Solo PvP
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Joneleth Rein
#141 - 2012-10-02 14:07:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Joneleth Rein
Every once in a while a thread like this opens up. I'll take the bait and reply anyway! Shocked

ECM or electronic warfare is a fleet tactic generally.Ok there's the occational module thrown there but usually if you bring a t2 you want it do that specific tactic right. So, it boggles my mind that people find it's hard to solo a group of more than 1 players because they did the wise thing and added a splash of tactics in their ship roster instead of the usual mwd+web+scram and outdps the moffa formations you see. And then even act suprised when they can't solo them.

If you (solo) or your gang haven't accounted for such things as (E-WAR,Nano-Kiter e.t.c) then you'r obviously at a disadvantage are you not? But that's the point when you engage isn't it? Make a setup that will offer you an advantage over your opponents. But If all you do is beef up and throw slugs chances are someone will find a way to block them. I'd scream buff ecm and all e-war tactics so we stop seing full dps gangs. Throw in some tactics damn you! MAKE IT INTERESTING!

Free tip of the day: FOF Missiles. Never leave home without them.

Spider Pig! Spider Pig! Does what a Spider Pig does.. Can he swing? From a web.. No he can't. He's a pig.
MaiLina KaTar
Katar Corp
#142 - 2012-10-02 14:15:26 UTC
Doyey3731 wrote:
Well not that alone, but it's certainly playing it's part.

I like going out for a roam alone and losing a ship. I'm not into the whole large gang stuff, been there done that. So I like going out, knowing I'm going to die but try and get a kill or two before I do.

The last few times I have, I've been blobbed which is great and to be expected, but I can't get a shot off most of the time which is what hacks me off. A crappy T1 hull cruiser can sit many KM from me and stop me from firing a single shot. It's so dull and predictable now. There is no effective counter against it.

That's right, there's no effective counter.

Now if you walked up to a bunch of hooligans, alone, equipped with nothing but your fists, insulted all of their moms and urinated on their fave team's flag right in front of them... would you expect to survive the encounter? No. You'd get battered down by baseball bats and then kicked to a pulp.

You're you. The hooligans are the blob. The baseballs bats are the ECM. Go figure.

Be smart when choosing your fights or die miserably. This game is not fair.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2012-10-02 14:17:16 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Stop being bad and learn to pick your targets.

What is a good target to engage while jammed?


Picking your targets != Target Calling

Don't engage targets who are going to bring jammers while you're unable to deal with jammers.

you mean "don't undock"?
cuz everyone can make jamming alt in several days

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#144 - 2012-10-02 14:19:11 UTC
ECM doesn't kill people. People kill people... With guns.
J'as Salarkin
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#145 - 2012-10-02 14:24:34 UTC
One more ECM thread to post in, nice! (yes I am slow to find threads, deal with it!...)


Copied from another thread:

I actually like the "chance based" system (it works for guns in falloff too you know), but totally shutting down the target seems a bit..well not well designed.

Instead let the ECM override your targeting systems (100% chance that it will happen), instead randomizing (rng at work here) which ship you will try to shot/repair of the ones you have already locked.

You can easily counter it by just targetting one single ship, which for a frigate is no big deal, but slightly annoying for a battleship.

The ECCM moduel would decrease the risk of your modules targeting the wrong ship.

In the end ECM would almost not affect 1vMany engagements at all as the single ship can still shot back at one opponent at the time, but it could have a massive impact on bigger battles where putting ecm on the logi ships or on the major damage dealers would wreak havoc.

Dont know how to balance (i.e. how high the cahnce of activating your modules on the wrong ships should be) or if its is a good idea to begin with, but it would change the ecm effect to something you can actually counter and even removing it as a tool where it seems to get the most hate from: being locked out of a fight where you are outnumbered anyway.


In addition to the above idea I would like to point out that combining ECM with sensor dampening would be a really powerful tool. This fits nicely to how the target painter and web works together too.
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#146 - 2012-10-02 14:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: tiberiusric
Pipa Porto wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
However I agree in principle ECM Boats are WAYYYYY overpowered.... perma jamming is easy and drones boats dont help they are sat a long way off, so they can cloak move and come back and blap again. Also falcons can fit 3 smarties to kill off those pesky drones...didnt you know... I dont think they should be able to completely disable all guns, maybe a fraction of them.


An Falcon (the best ECM boat for permajamming things) can keep 2 (maaaaybe 3) ships reliably jammed, at the cost of all significant tank (oh, and try fitting 3 smartbombs after the plate you need to keep alive long enough to kill the drones), and only if the opposing fleet is a racial rainbow (or you picked an unbalanced pattern and hoped you guessed right), and only if nobody fits ECCM.

Again, if you're solo, your solution to Falcons is to not fight people who are bringing Falcons, just like when solo you probably shouldn't fight people who brought any other recon, or any other friends.


You forget falcons ARE CLOAKED. Hence most of the time its the element of surprise, is it not? You would never engage if you KNEW there was a falcon around would u.....
Look people will NEVER fit for every possibility that could ever happen to you in eve, its impossible. Thats why noobs do that, you see on kms that they have a mix of guns and missiles, shield and armor tank, different drones, and eccm cos dumb people on the forums come out with 'well you should fit for that eventuality and then when they do, you laugh at them... pfft seriously...

All ships have a 'recommended fit' especially PVP ones, and I tell you many 9/10 do not fit to counter saying ECM. Maybe only in fleet battles where you know the enemy may bring it. I mean even logi dont have eccm, and they are the first to get ECM'd.
Its just not done..

The simple issue is you cannot fit for every situation you will come across. This is why you have to actually think about what you are doing and select your targets. Soloing is a profession and its hard work, especially now. You cant expect to roam around on your lonesome and just blat anything that comes along, it dont work like that.

and as they say if you cant beat em join em....go get an alt with a ecm boat.

however again especially falcons are way overpowered. There is no CHANCE based anything, they simply 99.9% of the time perm jam you...Again i think they should jam a 'percentage' of your guns not all of them. So if you have 5 turrets they will jam 3 of them or whatever based on yours and the skills of your ecm pilot

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit
Pipa Porto
#147 - 2012-10-02 14:32:14 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Stop being bad and learn to pick your targets.

What is a good target to engage while jammed?


Picking your targets != Target Calling

Don't engage targets who are going to bring jammers while you're unable to deal with jammers.

you mean "don't undock"?
cuz everyone can make jamming alt in several days


Several days means Blackbird. If it's cloaked you have ~10s notice to get them dead before they start jamming you. If it's uncloaked, you can just avoid the fight.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Joneleth Rein
#148 - 2012-10-02 14:35:40 UTC
And to add something more. ECM and generally e-war IS and SHOULD be supposed to kill solo PVP at least against them. You can't go and shouldn't go at it with nothing but your fists and some shield and think you can own it/them because you outdps/out-tank even at 1vs2. Plus chances are it's a gang.

Spider Pig! Spider Pig! Does what a Spider Pig does.. Can he swing? From a web.. No he can't. He's a pig.
Pipa Porto
#149 - 2012-10-02 14:36:00 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
You forget falcons ARE CLOAKED. Hence most of the time its the element of surprise, is it not? You would never engage if you KNEW there was a falcon around would u.....
Look people will NEVER fit for every possibility that could ever happen to you in eve, its impossible. Thats why noobs do that, you see on kms that they have a mix of guns and missiles, shield and armor tank, different drones, and eccm cos dumb people on the forums come out with 'well you should fit for that eventuality and then when they do, you laugh at them... pfft seriously...


If only there were some way to discover what pilots were in the vicinity...

ECCM Counters ECM. If you don't feel that ECM is a big enough threat to you to adjust your fit to deal with it, that's your choice.

Quote:
All ships have a 'recommended fit' especially PVP ones, and I tell you many 9/10 do not fit to counter saying ECM. Maybe only in fleet battles where you know the enemy may bring it. I mean even logi dont have eccm, and they are the first to get ECM'd.
Its just not done..


And that's a choice. Must mean ECM isn't that big of a deal if nobody's fitting to counter it. Why are you having so much trouble?

Quote:
The simple issue is you cannot fit for every situation you will come across. This is why you have to actually think about what you are doing and select your targets. Soloing is a profession and its hard work, especially now. You cant expect to roam around on your lonesome and just blat anything that comes along, it dont work like that.


Exactly

Quote:
and as they say if you cant beat em join em....go get an alt with a ecm boat.

however again especially falcons are way overpowered. There is no CHANCE based anything, they simply 99.9% of the time perm jam you...Again i think they should jam a 'percentage' of your guns not all of them. So if you have 5 turrets they will jam 3 of them or whatever based on yours and the skills of your ecm pilot


Then you've never flown a Falcon and have no idea how the ECM mechanics work.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Joneleth Rein
#150 - 2012-10-02 14:38:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Joneleth Rein
Pipa Porto wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Stop being bad and learn to pick your targets.

What is a good target to engage while jammed?


Picking your targets != Target Calling

Don't engage targets who are going to bring jammers while you're unable to deal with jammers.

you mean "don't undock"?
cuz everyone can make jamming alt in several days


Several days means Blackbird. If it's cloaked you have ~10s notice to get them dead before they start jamming you. If it's uncloaked, you can just avoid the fight.


If it's a blackbird with a cloak you can probably wave and google some fancy dance between the time it uncloaks and locks you. (normal cloak's sensor recalibration +50% targeting speed penalty *wink * at the usual 45+ seconds )

If it's the falcon yeah. You got maybe 10s tops (varied on your ship sig size)

Spider Pig! Spider Pig! Does what a Spider Pig does.. Can he swing? From a web.. No he can't. He's a pig.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#151 - 2012-10-02 15:46:21 UTC
Cede Forster wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:

ECM renders a ship USELESS, other forms of Ewar have far more obvious and accessible counters.



So the game is not easy enough for you? - That is like news or something right?

Do tell, what is the obvious and accessible counter to TP.


Yep, because me discussing ECM is me complaining about the game as a whole, good job mate.

Well, you could just blow up the thing TPing you, you can't say the same for ECM.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#152 - 2012-10-02 15:49:52 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Cede Forster wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:

ECM renders a ship USELESS, other forms of Ewar have far more obvious and accessible counters.



So the game is not easy enough for you? - That is like news or something right?

Do tell, what is the obvious and accessible counter to TP.


Yep, because me discussing ECM is me complaining about the game as a whole, good job mate.

Well, you could just blow up the thing TPing you, you can't say the same for ECM.

You could also move faster (overheat your prop mod, maybe). Higher speed directly counteracts the sig radius bloom that a TP puts on you.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#153 - 2012-10-02 15:52:42 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

You could also move faster (overheat your prop mod, maybe). Higher speed directly counteracts the sig radius bloom that a TP puts on you.


^ also this.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2012-10-02 16:06:17 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


ECCM Counters ECM. If you don't feel that ECM is a big enough threat to you to adjust your fit to deal with it, that's your choice.


Spoken like someone who has never once fitted an ECCM mod. ECCM mod does as much to counter ECM as a gyrostablizer, which is nothing. Go put one on a ship and test it out, ECCM is a total fail mod. We tested something on SiSi the otherday, 2 thrashers 1v1. 1 with web in mid slot, one with ECM in mid slot. Obviously the one with ECM won 5/5 times, but not only that the ECM thrasher permajammed the other thrasher with in 20 seconds 5/5 times (That is first jam landing 100% of the time...).

After we dropped the web for ECCM we tried the same little experiment. Even with the second thrasher using ECCM, the thrasher with ECM won 5/5 times. 4/5times the ECM thrasher permajammed the other thrasher within 20 seconds of the fight starting. One time the ecm thrasher didn't get its first jam, giving the second thrasher an extra 20seconds. The ecm thrasher still won, it just got down to 20% armor before permajamming the other thrasher.

So yeah I agree all you trolls, ECCM is a perfect use for a mid slot. Use up a mid slot for a 20% chance for an extra 20 seconds before you get permajammed. An extra 20 seconds in which you can't do a whole lot, considering what ever is jamming you is 50-70km away. Fantastic mod, fantastic counter!

Truthfully the only counter to ECM, is more ECM boats. The cardinal rule of balancing, when the only counter to something is more of that same thing, well that thing is unbalanced and overpowered.
Pipa Porto
#155 - 2012-10-02 17:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
Truthfully the only counter to ECM, is more ECM boats. The cardinal rule of balancing, when the only counter to something is more of that same thing, well that thing is unbalanced and overpowered.


Nope. Bring 2 Amarr ships against a Falcon and only one (or none, depending on whether the Falcon is running an unbalanced jammer suite) is getting jammed. Tah-Dah, Countered.

Alternatively,
Bring ECCM, and again, a Falcon's a lot less likely to keep a permajam going on multiple ships.

Sic Drones on them to force them off the field.

FOF Missiles and close with the ECM boat.


Just because you cant deal with multiple ships while solo doesn't mean one of those ships weapon systems is overpowered.


As for your Thrasher example, you used a racial jammer didn't you? So multiply the jam probability by 1/4 to account for the 3/4 of the time the ECM thrasher is going to pick the wrong racial jammer. Unless you're saying that people normally sit around waiting for you to refit with a hard counter to your ship?

By the way, for unbonused ECM being used on a Thrasher,
With multispec, the chance of getting a successful jam off is 1 in 3. With Racial it's 1 in 2.
Add a heated ECCM mod and that chance drops to 15% and 22% respectively.

Best chance is 60% with a heated racial ECM with no ECCM on the defender.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
ugh zug
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2012-10-02 17:26:16 UTC
op waaah i cant waste a mid and low slot on ECCM so ill just rage on the forums to get ecm nerfed.

working as intended.

Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#157 - 2012-10-02 17:30:00 UTC
ugh zug wrote:
op waaah i cant waste a mid and low slot on ECCM so ill just rage on the forums to get ecm nerfed.

working as intended.

Yeah a group of ships has a lot more mids to put ECM in. Heh.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Type Xero
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2012-10-02 18:20:17 UTC
because falcon
Doyey3731
Tactical Feed.
Pandemic Horde
#159 - 2012-10-03 12:24:31 UTC
Wow this thread's still going. I guess I'm not the only one who feels it's not quite right.

I've done some tests of my own too over the last few days. Nothing scientifically accurate so I wont bore you with any statistics because I don't have any. I was just trying around various things and even with basic ECM skills, ships with ecm came out on top every time.
fr0gout
#160 - 2012-10-17 01:20:44 UTC
OP you stupid you need to fit F.O.F missiles on your Deimos and fit smartbombs as well as ECCM + 4 Damps lol noob don't u know how to counter ecm its fine and balanced lrn 2 play.