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Avatar Resculpting - Plex?

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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#141 - 2012-09-30 00:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Tippia wrote:
Webvan wrote:
This is nothing new. This is not a service.
Not quite. It is indeed a service
Not even, it's an in-game mechanic. As service is solidly defined as something administered outside of the game, such as support, name change, server transfers. This is an in-game mechanic and has nothing to do with a service, flat out.

Nothing new? No subscription game which has had this mechanic ever treated it as a paying service. Like I said, SWG had it, EnB had it. It was administrated by a nominal in-game fee (e.g. ISK), or in SWG's case free if players decided to do it for free or free onto themselves. This is a game mechanic, introduced by a fail expansion. This is just gouging in an f2p sense.

In fact, the first to do this was EQ1. Though very limited as it was, it still offered the ability to completely change your character appearance as part of the mechanics of the game. As a programmer, I fully recognize this as an in-game mechanic and has always traditionally been so.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Pipa Porto
#142 - 2012-09-30 00:33:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Webvan wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Webvan wrote:
This is nothing new. This is not a service.
Not quite. It is indeed a service
Not even, it's an in-game mechanic. As service is solidly defined as something administered outside of the game, such as support, name change, server transfers. This is an in-game mechanic and has nothing to do with a service, flat out.

Nothing new? No subscription game which has had this mechanic ever treated it as a paying service. Like I said, SWG had it, EnB had it. It was administrated by a nominal in-game fee (e.g. ISK), or in SWG's case free if players decided to do it for free or free onto themselves. This is a game mechanic, introduced by a fail expansion. This is just gouging in an f2p sense.


You mean besides EVE, which has had it through the portrait swap service for ages (costing the same or more than a full resculpt costs now).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#143 - 2012-09-30 00:40:36 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


You mean besides EVE, which has had it through the portrait swap service for ages (costing the same or more than a full resculpt costs now).
It's administered within the game client. If I had to go to a webpage to make changes, which would be really poor coding imo, then it'd be a service. How they have the back-end set up to support the client is irrelevant otherwise even undocking would be considered a service.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#144 - 2012-09-30 00:46:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Webvan wrote:
Not even, it's an in-game mechanic. As service is solidly defined as something administered outside of the game, such as support, name change, server transfers.
…and flagging your account as having a remodelling available. In the olden days, it was a literally impossible to do in-game and this is just a continuation of the same service.

Quote:
Nothing new?
Nope. Portrait changes were around long before I started playing, and this is the same thing for a new age. Nothing new. Just a new (cheaper) price and an improved, more direct interface with fewer steps.

Quote:
This is a game mechanic, introduced by a fail expansion.
No. It's a game service, introduced by… oh I have no idea when they introduced it. Quite likely very shortly after the game went live, but you'll have to ask people who were around back then.

Quote:
It's administered within the game client.
No. It's administered on the web page, as it has always been. It's a continuation of an age-old service for a new avatar system. I'm sorry, but your indignation over the fact that a service will continue to exist does change the history or nature of that service.
Pipa Porto
#145 - 2012-09-30 00:49:03 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


You mean besides EVE, which has had it through the portrait swap service for ages (costing the same or more than a full resculpt costs now).
It's administered within the game client. If I had to go to a webpage to make changes, which would be really poor coding imo, then it'd be a service. How they have the back-end set up to support the client is irrelevant otherwise even undocking would be considered a service.


So now you're complaining that the same old service that's been around for ever is easier to use?

This resculpt service is a continuation of the old portrait swap service. It's just cheaper and easier to use (no need to use up a character slot to make the portrait to swap).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#146 - 2012-09-30 01:03:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Pipa Porto wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


You mean besides EVE, which has had it through the portrait swap service for ages (costing the same or more than a full resculpt costs now).
It's administered within the game client. If I had to go to a webpage to make changes, which would be really poor coding imo, then it'd be a service. How they have the back-end set up to support the client is irrelevant otherwise even undocking would be considered a service.


So now you're complaining that the same old service that's been around for ever is easier to use?

This resculpt service is a continuation of the old portrait swap service. It's just cheaper and easier to use (no need to use up a character slot to make the portrait to swap).
I'm complaining that this is an in-game mechanic being treated as a service simply to gouge players as if this game were an f2p. What's next, a PLEX to undock my damn ship? Enter a CC# to get station repair services? I play this game in part because I think f2p games that nickle and dime you to death (all f2p games) are bottom feeding filth! It's why I deleted my SOE games I played for years, snapped the DVD's in half, F* SOE! Why, as a subscriber, do I need to pay for features of a game that I already paid for? Same applies to EVE, where it may have been considered a service (due to poooor programming) in the past, where as now it's a a client coded in-game feature? It's clear as day.

And for me it's not about re-doing characters, I could care less if it were even available at all, but it's a question of business ethics. Something we all know CCP needs to be held to account upon.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Pipa Porto
#147 - 2012-09-30 02:13:15 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


You mean besides EVE, which has had it through the portrait swap service for ages (costing the same or more than a full resculpt costs now).
It's administered within the game client. If I had to go to a webpage to make changes, which would be really poor coding imo, then it'd be a service. How they have the back-end set up to support the client is irrelevant otherwise even undocking would be considered a service.


So now you're complaining that the same old service that's been around for ever is easier to use?

This resculpt service is a continuation of the old portrait swap service. It's just cheaper and easier to use (no need to use up a character slot to make the portrait to swap).
I'm complaining that this is an in-game mechanic being treated as a service simply to gouge players as if this game were an f2p. What's next, a PLEX to undock my damn ship? Enter a CC# to get station repair services? I play this game in part because I think f2p games that nickle and dime you to death (all f2p games) are bottom feeding filth! It's why I deleted my SOE games I played for years, snapped the DVD's in half, F* SOE! Why, as a subscriber, do I need to pay for features of a game that I already paid for? Same applies to EVE, where it may have been considered a service (due to poooor programming) in the past, where as now it's a a client coded in-game feature? It's clear as day.

And for me it's not about re-doing characters, I could care less if it were even available at all, but it's a question of business ethics. Something we all know CCP needs to be held to account upon.


So you're going with the slippery slope argument when the first step down that slope was taken almost a decade ago and CCP hasn't slipped yet*?

CCP Suspended a service in order to improve it, and you're complaining that they've reinstated that service (cheaper and more conveniently).

Can I have your stuff?

*Aside from Incarna

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Morar Santee
#148 - 2012-09-30 05:00:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Morar Santee
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
It's administered within the game client.
No. It's administered on the web page, as it has always been. It's a continuation of an age-old service for a new avatar system. I'm sorry, but your indignation over the fact that a service will continue to exist does change the history or nature of that service.

Still arguing for the sake of arguments, I see, and as usual without actually having an argument.

You already managed to highlight the difference yourself. This used to be a service that required a GM to switch one portrait for another. A service for which the customer paid if he wanted to use it, as part of customer service relations.

Nowadays, there is absolutely no service involved. That an account gets flagged as having a resculpting available by a few lines of code that already existed server-side and on the client previous to the "continuation of this service" and could be triggered by any action other than redeeming a PLEX is not worth the expense of 15$.
There have been free resculptings available shortly after the Incarna expansion, to a select number of players who sculpted their characters during a certain time-frame. This was an automated process determining when a character was sculpted, which then flagged it for resculpting.

Sculpting (and resculpting) your character is part of regular gameplay. It is part of the service we are being provided with in exchange for our subscription fees. The resculpting of character models is definitely a desired aspect of gameplay, so yes there is a demand, and as was mentioned by myself and the person you are arguing with, this could have been used as an ISK sink. This would have been a much more desirable outcome for the community as a whole, because ISK-inflation is affecting us all.

And yet you are arguing, as always, because derailing threads with viable concerns in exchange for negative attention is awesome.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#149 - 2012-09-30 05:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Morar Santee wrote:
Still arguing for the sake of arguments, I see
Nope. I'm still arguing for the sake of accuracy, as always.

Quote:
You already managed to highlight the difference yourself. This used to be a service that required a GM to switch one portrait for another.
…and it still is a service that requires you to flag your account. It's a service the customer has to pay for if he wants it. The only difference is that it now makes use of the current avatar creation methodology — beyond that, it's just a continuation of the same old service.

Quote:
Sculpting (and resculpting) your character is part of regular gameplay.
…except, of course, that regular gameplay does not allow you to resculpt your character. It is still something you do at the very beginning of your character creation and if you want to revisit that stage, you still have to pay for the service since it's not part of what you can normally do with your character.

This whole “I'm suddenly angry that things are the way they've always been” line of reasoning is just silly.
Tomiko Kawase
Perkone
#150 - 2012-09-30 07:15:54 UTC
I really like this feature, but is there any way we could get some way to spend Aurum for it? I have all these tokens and nothing to spend them on...
Mirabi Tiane
#151 - 2012-09-30 08:33:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…and it still is a service that requires you to flag your account. It's a service the customer has to pay for if he wants it. The only difference is that it now makes use of the current avatar creation methodology — beyond that, it's just a continuation of the same old service.

If it were the same old service it would require GM action. It does not. It is completely automated. The process no longer costs CCP the time of a GM, it now costs them absolutely nothing. That is the key difference.
Pipa Porto
#152 - 2012-09-30 08:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Mirabi Tiane wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…and it still is a service that requires you to flag your account. It's a service the customer has to pay for if he wants it. The only difference is that it now makes use of the current avatar creation methodology — beyond that, it's just a continuation of the same old service.

If it were the same old service it would require GM action. It does not. It is completely automated. The process no longer costs CCP the time of a GM, it now costs them absolutely nothing. That is the key difference.


You could change your appearance before at a cost.

You can change your appearance now at a cost.

And now it's cheaper.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#153 - 2012-09-30 08:45:04 UTC
Mirabi Tiane wrote:
If it were the same old service it would require GM action.
Eh, no. It it were the same old service, it would be an offer to pay to have your appearance altered. And it is! Why look at that, whaddayaknow. Their having streamlined things on their end doesn't change anything.

…except now it's cheaper and much easier to do, to the benefit of all.
Faelune
Tous Pour Un
#154 - 2012-09-30 09:37:12 UTC
Thankfully, in the real world, losing weight, fit a nose, and do a photo shot don't cost: 200 Drones Type Predator or 2 battleship class Iowa, with all crew members in it and full ammunitions.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#155 - 2012-09-30 09:50:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Morar Santee wrote:
Still arguing for the sake of arguments, I see
Nope. I'm still arguing for the sake of accuracy, as always.

Arguments sake, definitely. You seem to fail to differentiate the chasm between a service and a game mechanic. Roll
I suppose you as well tip vending machines I take it? Lol

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Pipa Porto
#156 - 2012-09-30 09:58:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Webvan wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Morar Santee wrote:
Still arguing for the sake of arguments, I see
Nope. I'm still arguing for the sake of accuracy, as always.

Arguments sake, definitely. You seem to fail to differentiate the chasm between a service and a game mechanic. Roll
I suppose you as well tip vending machines I take it? Lol


So you're saying it wasn't a "game mechanic" before, but it is now because CCP made some backend improvements? Oh, and lowered the price.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#157 - 2012-09-30 10:22:16 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

So you're saying it wasn't a "game mechanic" before, but it is now because CCP made some backend improvements? Oh, and lowered the price.



Morar Santee wrote:
This used to be a service that required a GM to switch one portrait for another. A service for which the customer paid if he wanted to use it, as part of customer service relations.

Nowadays, there is absolutely no service involved. That an account gets flagged as having a resculpting available by a few lines of code.

Sculpting (and resculpting) your character is part of regular gameplay. It is part of the service we are being provided with in exchange for our subscription fees.

^^That (capsulated)

It's not a service. CCP freed up support to deal with this, has moved on to maybe making avatar clothing or something. There is no extra cost for CCP with this any longer, it's coded. It's part of the game code, no need to pay anyone extra to do this any longer. Good for CCP and good for players ...or should be. What's next?

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Pipa Porto
#158 - 2012-09-30 10:44:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Webvan wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

So you're saying it wasn't a "game mechanic" before, but it is now because CCP made some backend improvements? Oh, and lowered the price.



Morar Santee wrote:
This used to be a service that required a GM to switch one portrait for another. A service for which the customer paid if he wanted to use it, as part of customer service relations.

Nowadays, there is absolutely no service involved. That an account gets flagged as having a resculpting available by a few lines of code.

Sculpting (and resculpting) your character is part of regular gameplay. It is part of the service we are being provided with in exchange for our subscription fees.

^^That (capsulated)

It's not a service. CCP freed up support to deal with this, has moved on to maybe making avatar clothing or something. There is no extra cost for CCP with this any longer, it's coded. It's part of the game code, no need to pay anyone extra to do this any longer. Good for CCP and good for players ...or should be. What's next?


Other things getting cheaper? I'm not sure where you're going with the slippery slope argument when the first step is "things become cheaper."

The benefit (changing your face) used to cost some amount. It now costs a smaller amount. How does charging less for something change the nature of the benefit?

Resculpting is not a part of regular gameplay. Regular gameplay involves creating your character's face once and then you're stuck with it. You're confusing customization (changing clothes, changing your portrait, etc), which is part of normal gameplay with resculpting your character, which is not. And for some reason you're hung up about the backend process that doesn't matter.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Morar Santee
#159 - 2012-09-30 11:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Morar Santee
Tippia wrote:
Morar Santee wrote:
Still arguing for the sake of arguments, I see
Nope. I'm still arguing for the sake of accuracy, as always.

Quote:
You already managed to highlight the difference yourself. This used to be a service that required a GM to switch one portrait for another.
…and it still is a service that requires you to flag your account. It's a service the customer has to pay for if he wants it. The only difference is that it now makes use of the current avatar creation methodology — beyond that, it's just a continuation of the same old service.

Quote:
Sculpting (and resculpting) your character is part of regular gameplay.
…except, of course, that regular gameplay does not allow you to resculpt your character. It is still something you do at the very beginning of your character creation and if you want to revisit that stage, you still have to pay for the service since it's not part of what you can normally do with your character.

This whole “I'm suddenly angry that things are the way they've always been” line of reasoning is just silly.

Okay, got it it bubba...... you managed to identify this procedure as a "service" for the sole reason that you have to pay for it. Therefore, if you did not have to pay for it, it would not be a service. Which kinda makes me jump to the conclusion, and this is wild ****, that it really isn't a service.

You even made this funny freudian slip: "[...] it still is a service that requires you to flag your account". It's a service because it requires me to do something? Whoa, really now!? I had this really odd idea that a service is when I pay other people because they do something for me. Which CCP isn't doing. They're doing absolutely nothing. Which means they are asking additional money for nothing. Asking money for nothing is not providing a service.

At the very best, you could argue they are selling me a new character portrait for 15$. Except that I have no ownership of this portrait. All rights involved and the data itself belong to CCP. I don't even have a claim to intellectual property. So.. as I always do before I stop discussing with you because it is utterly pointless, I will kindly ask you to remove your head from a bodily orifice in your nether regions.. and move on.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#160 - 2012-09-30 11:16:48 UTC
Mirabi Tiane wrote:
If it were the same old service it would require GM action. It does not. It is completely automated. The process no longer costs CCP the time of a GM, it now costs them absolutely nothing. That is the key difference.


These days, most cars are built by robots, not people. Yet cars still cost a significant portion of the average annual income, and significantly more than the cost of materials. Why aren't cars built for cost these days?