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Avatar Resculpting - Plex?

First post First post First post
Author
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#121 - 2012-09-29 15:47:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Imagine CCP releases an expansin; this expansion comes with a new feature, we can call it planetary interaction. Let's say you have no idea how this new feature works, so you invest like 500k SP into the skills only to find that you don't like it.

I see nothing wrong with being able to pay a Plex to move the 500k SP from the PI stuff into Accounting (lvl 4). I wouldn't be gaining anything, I would be losing the ability to do PI. Accounting lvl 5 requires me to spend another 635k SP at 3x training.
What's wrong with it is that it would be massively abused to circumvent the character balancing mechanics.

[/quote]

I have to agree here with Tippia SP remapping would be massively abused by anyone with the ISK or PLEX to buy a character from the bazzzar & remapp all its SP to do whatever & make the game too pay to play
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#122 - 2012-09-29 15:59:39 UTC
Quote:

The beauty of EVE is that SP doesn't matter — it's a useless stat beyond making your clone pricey — so having a whole bunch of high-SP characters doesn't hurt the game.

Says the 98m SP character who thinks that moving SP from some unused skills into some usable skills once every 6 months would be game breaking, so it shouldn't be allowed.

We should have to walk up hill both ways, in a foot of snow, barefoot, carrying 100lbs of rocks just beause you did.

Quote:

You wouldn't gain anything from it (actually, you would — you'd gain a skill you didn't train —


Wrong.
In that example, I have 500k SP in PI skills. I have Accounting lvl 4 already.
It takes 17 days to go from L4 accounting to L5
That's more than 600k SP.

I would LOSE the ability to do any PI, and I would STILL have L4 accounting.

I gain back the time I invested into skills that aren't being used, because I don't like the mechanics. I gain back the two weeks of training that I wasted; that is all.

Quote:

5M SP is an almost entire race's subcap ship line + main weaponry

While you ignore the idea of not allowing more than 1m SP to be moved out of a single skill category in a single remap.

Even then, you said:
Quote:

SP doesn't matter — it's a useless stat beyond making your clone pricey

Or do you mean to say that SP only matter when you want them to matter?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#123 - 2012-09-29 16:16:26 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Says the 98m SP character who thinks that moving SP from some unused skills into some usable skills once every 6 months would be game breaking, so it shouldn't be allowed.
Indeed I am. Why? Because it's true. SP doesn't matter. Skills do. SP remapping flips that around, making skills no longer matter and making SP king. The fact that all SP are locked into a fixed combination of skills means that people running around with a ton of SP doesn't hurt the game — they can only use an increasingly small portion of those SP anyway. With SP remapping, they'd be able to use a far larger pool of that SP all the time, which would benefit them and no-one else. It certainly wouldn't benefit the game.

I would be one of the major winners if SP remapping happened. That's why it shouldn't (and why it never will).

Quote:
We should have to walk up hill both ways, in a foot of snow, barefoot, carrying 100lbs of rocks just beause you did.
That's indeed what the result of SP remaps would be. Right now, the skill system ensures that this doesn't happen (beyond learning skills, which is why they were removed) — you don't have to walk barefoot in the snow because you can get to the same point, skill-wise, by taking a much shorter road. With SP remaps, this is no longer true since the collection of skills would no longer matter — only the amount of SP would have any meaning and new players would have to walk barefoot the same road as older players to get to where they were (at which point those older players have moved on and will maintain their advantage).

Quote:
I would LOSE the ability to do any PI, and I would STILL have L4 accounting.
…and only have a day left to get to V — so you gained training that you didn't have. You also eventually gain a cheaper clone that you should have. You also gain the ability to be careless and not plan or research your training.

Quote:
Or do you mean to say that SP only matter when you want them to matter?
No. I mean that SP doesn't matter. Allowing SP remaps make them matter. This is a bad thing. 5M SP is not a trivial amount to switch around because it's the difference between being in line with the FOTM and not being so. Congratulations on being confused by these two completely separate points.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#124 - 2012-09-29 16:48:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
If they don't matter, then then they don't need to be there; if they didn't matter then it wouldn't matter what you you trained or how long it took to train it.

If SP didn't matter than it shouldn't matter to you what someone else does with their skilpoints, they don't matter; therefore they have no impact on the game.

If you think that 98 SP don't matter, than there's a serious problem with progression in the game, 98m SP should matter a lot more than 10m.

If you think SP don't matter than you can't say that 5 million SP isn't trivial, if they don't matter then 98m SP is as trivial as 5m.


"Becaues you would make an element of the game matter, that is supposed to matter" is about as rediculous an arguement as you could possibly make. That is simply stupid.


Good lord, changes that impact the game in such a way only have the potential to occur up to two times a year. That is every expansion, that MIGHT change core gameplay elements as to shift the "FoTM" ship and build. FoTM already exists, (See drake blob, See PvE tengu pilots, See PvE drakes, Etc. etc.)

You can LIMIT the amount of SP that can be moved into and out of a single skill catagory as well as the total overall amount of SP that can be moved around to have a system that would be usefull, but not usable to make "entire builds".

All of the changes that impact "FoTM" are announced well in advance. Anyone who would be effected by this winters Xpac (drones, missiles, whatever else) already has all of the time they need to train the neccessary skills to be in line with whatever the "FoTM" build will be, come the next expansion; many people already the skills.

You're argueing a situation that already exists.

Nor should it ever be the players burden when CCP alters functions of the game. If they make one thing not as good tomorrow, after I trained it, in favor of something else being better, then why should my training time be trivialized. A lot of people feel that way about changes CCP makes. People wouldn't be complaining about missiles and drones today, if SP didn't matter. We should be able to pay for the ability to make MINOR adjustments for whatever reason.


Edit: By Tippias reasoning, shouldn't SP remapping FIX the game? SP are supposed to be an important part of the game, if they aren't then something is wrong and they need to be made to be important again.
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2012-09-29 16:59:06 UTC
I was wondering how a nice little feature like this ended up spawning a seven page thread.

Then I saw Tippia wading into a debate with an SP remap proponent.

"Oh."
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#126 - 2012-09-29 17:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
If they don't matter, then then they don't need to be there; if they didn't matter then it wouldn't matter what you you trained or how long it took to train it.
Are you trying really really hard to miss the point, or does it come naturally?
The amount of SP a character has does not matter, because the skill system works in such a way that having more SP doesn't mean the character is “stronger”. What matters is how SP are allocated — what skills a character has and in what combination.

The training time only matters in so far as it creates a balance and tension between characters to ensure that training one thing comes at the appreciable cost of not training something else that you might also need, and that multiple characters need to combine their skills to work effectively.

Quote:
If SP didn't matter than it shouldn't matter to you what someone else does with their skilpoints, they don't matter; therefore they have no impact on the game.
What people do with their SP matters if what they're doing bypasses the balance and tension designed into the skill system.

Quote:
If you think that 98 SP don't matter, than there's a serious problem with progression in the game, 98m SP should matter a lot more than 10m.
No. It really really shouldn't. It's a marvellous piece of design that ensures that 10M SP characters present a credible challenge to a 98M SP character. It means we have moved away from that moronic level-based design of yore and that the game properly pits players against each other rather than make it a matter of top trumps.

As such, any kind of change that suddenly makes that 98M SP character be “better” just because he has more SP — which is exactly what SP remapping does — inherently and unavoidable ruins the game and turns it into a lower-grade and outdated design.

Quote:
If you think SP don't matter than you can't say that 5 million SP isn't trivial
Yes I can, largely because you're still confusing two completely separate states. SP doesn't matter because they're locked into skills, and it's the combination of (equally locked) skills that matter. If he skills are no longer locked, then they cease to matter and suddenly 5M SP becomes a non-trivial amount to be moved around.

Quote:
You're argueing a situation that already exists.
No. The ability to instantly swap from one skill set to another at a whim does not exist. Such swaps take time, and they take time for a very very good reason: to ensure that being older (i.e. having more SP) does not inherently provide you with any advantage — to ensure that SP are utterly unimportant.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#127 - 2012-09-29 17:34:25 UTC
As I plug in +5 implants and use my free neural remap to adjust my attributes to give me another boost in training time. For little cost, and no real penalties, that impact every skill.

Yeah, being able to remove my ability to use a few skills to give a slight boost in the traiing of other skills would be gamebreaking. Because a 2 week boost in the training of 3 or 4 skills out of 6 months worth of training time would be horribly broken.

Imagine how devistating it would be to the game if people could take a few million of the wasted SP they trained and actually be able to use those trained points in something benefitial to them. What ever will I do without those skills that I never use because CCP couldn't tell me before hand that I woldn't enjoy the activety that those skills enabled me to do.

It's totally my fault that I spent a few weeks training those PI skills without knowing that it was going to cause uncrontrollable twitching from the click, click, click, click, click, click.

It would be horrible of CCP to let me spend some plex and move those few points, that don't matter, to skills that I will actually put to use.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#128 - 2012-09-29 17:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
As I plug in +5 implants and use my free neural remap to adjust my attributes to give me another boost in training time. For little cost, and no real penalties, that impact every skill.
No. It doesn't impact any skills. It impacts your training time — time you still have to spend because luckily there are no mechanics in place to skip that time expenditure.

Quote:
Yeah, being able to remove my ability to use a few skills to give a slight boost in the traiing of other skills would be gamebreaking.
Yes, because it would mean the skills and attributes no longer mattered — only SP — which would turn the game from being one where age only brings more expensive clones into one where age = level, and higher level = more power. If you want that kind of archaic gameplay, there are tons of games that still suffer from it — I suggest you seek those out instead (but you wouldn't, would you, since that would mean you arrived at the very bottom of the heap).

Quote:
Imagine how devistating it would be to the game if people could take a few million of the wasted SP they trained and actually be able to use those trained points in something benefitial to them.
I already have imagined it. It's not a pretty sight since it leaves the game broken and full of pointless mechanics that no longer serve any purpose; since it leaves new players unable to “catch up” (a concept that is currently not even applicable to EVE); and since it removes a number of a “draws” from the game: planning, choice, variety.

Quote:
It would be horrible of CCP to let me spend some plex and move those few points, that don't matter, to skills that I will actually put to use.
The reason those points don't matter is because you can't move them. If you could, they would, and that would be a bad thing for the numerous reasons you've been completely unable to argue against.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#129 - 2012-09-29 17:47:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Except for implants and neural remaps that CCP gives us for free.

I totally get it Tippia, exchanging this L4 skill that isn't being used to boost a skill I would use would totally defeat an entire core mechanic of the game, ignoring my skill points because they don't matter. At least as far as someone with almost 100m skillpoints is concerned. What?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#130 - 2012-09-29 17:56:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Except for implants and neural remaps that CCP gives us for free.
…which don't let you skip balancing game mechanics.

Quote:
I totally get it Tippia, exchanging this L4 skill that isn't being used to boost a skill I would use would totally defeat the an entire core mechanic of the game
It defeats the purpose of having attributes. It defeats the purpose of having skills. It defeats the idea that you should plan ahead and weigh your options before you choose. It defeats the notion that age does not bestow power. It introduces what's essentially an XP/Level-based character build concept that is the complete opposite of what the game is designed around, which will — unsurprisingly — wreak havoc with the balance of that game design.

So yes, it does indeed defeat numerous core game mechanics, design decisions, and balancing features.

Quote:
At least as far as someone with almost 100m skillpoints is concerned.
I know that this might be a foreign concept to you, but I don't want my SP to provide any benefits. I have no problems arguing for things that are “bad” for me and against things that would benefit me greatly, if it means that it's better for the game over all like that.

I have stayed with EVE for five years because those years don't mean I can lord it over the guy who has just been here five weeks. It was a particularly important realisation early on, when it my being five weeks into the game didn't mean I was at an automatic disadvantage to those who were five years older than me. I can't see any good argument why this should change — only bad ones.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#131 - 2012-09-29 18:09:38 UTC
Tippia is absolutely and totally spot on ...
SP remaps should never happen. (Unless it's CCP saying 'we're deleting this skill completely, have the SP's back')

Avatars ... pfft, i mean who really cares.
MinefieldS
1 Sick Duck Standss on something
#132 - 2012-09-29 19:53:13 UTC
I want to resculpt avatars into wyverns.
Sarmea Moon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2012-09-29 22:10:38 UTC
Skimmed the argument so it may have been mentioned, but you also need to include the impact on skill deleting situations ingame.

If you allow constant remapping, then you can zerg the enemy from stations that DON'T have cloning/medical facilities, and not worry that you are going to lose a skill you need to get into the ship you're zerging with. You can't fix that by simply buying up replacement characters, the number you'd need would be ridiculous.

Then there are the T3 skills. Buy up skillpoints, and it won't matter how many tengu you lost this week, pop a plex and back in you go:P Talk about buy to play...

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#134 - 2012-09-29 22:23:07 UTC
Like $20 to do something that should be free/included in the sub? Evil
CCP sinking by the day...

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#135 - 2012-09-29 22:28:44 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Like $20 to do something that should be free/included in the sub? Evil
CCP sinking by the day...
…except that it's been around since, oh, roughly forever and not sunk the game yet. Hell, a lot of games don't even offer a complete re-do of the avatar, and they aren't sinking either.

All they're doing is, at long last, updating their old service to match the new tech and payment options they've implemented over the years.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#136 - 2012-09-29 22:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Tippia wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Like $20 to do something that should be free/included in the sub? Evil
CCP sinking by the day...
…except that it's been around since, oh, roughly forever and not sunk the game yet. Hell, a lot of games don't even offer a complete re-do of the avatar, and they aren't sinking either.

All they're doing is, at long last, updating their old service to match the new tech and payment options they've implemented over the years.
But it's not a "service" or an "item". Especially in a game were you create "clones" (in an RP sense) which should be modifiable. CCP should be letting players re-do appearance as needed, to make the characters look the best they can be, to draw more interest to the game. It's good for promotion. Charging $20 to do that is not.
Hmm... and I recall doing such modifications in SWG, and it didn't cost $20 to do it.

edit: This is an "in-game "customization"". Even EnB allowed for customization. It's part of the game package that we pay for - already paid for. This isn't an f2p-subscription game. It's either one or the other, can't be both or us subscribers are getting ripped. Only thing acceptable would be paying a moderate ISK fee, which is also good for removing ISK form the system. In SWG the fee was player set (by image designers), and EnB had a set terminal fee. Only an f2p game does this kind of crap. And no, 600m isk to do this is not acceptable either.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2012-09-29 23:36:04 UTC
I'm just speculating here, but does CCP seems to be trying to drive the PLEX prices up by these train of PLEX offers?

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#138 - 2012-09-29 23:50:51 UTC
Webvan wrote:
This is an "in-game "customization"". Even EnB allowed for customization. It's part of the game package that we pay for - already paid for.
EVE offers such customization as well. Just step into the dressing booth.

What this is about is a much deeper level — resculpting your character rather than just customizing it — and, again, it's just the same old service they've offered for years remade for the new avatar system. Being upset now over something that has been in place for ages is… somewhat disingenuous, especially since they just made it cheaper and (much) easier to manage than before.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#139 - 2012-09-30 00:10:33 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Webvan wrote:
This is an "in-game "customization"". Even EnB allowed for customization. It's part of the game package that we pay for - already paid for.
EVE offers such customization as well. Just step into the dressing booth.

What this is about is a much deeper level — resculpting your character rather than just customizing it — and, again, it's just the same old service they've offered for years remade for the new avatar system. Being upset now over something that has been in place for ages is… somewhat disingenuous, especially since they just made it cheaper and (much) easier to manage than before.

I see what you did there.
It was the same in SWG. This is nothing new. This is not a service.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#140 - 2012-09-30 00:12:35 UTC
Webvan wrote:
This is nothing new. This is not a service.
Not quite. It is indeed a service, but it is also not new: it's been around for ages — hell, it was listed right there on the account services page before the account management page was redone.