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Avatar Resculpting - Plex?

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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#101 - 2012-09-29 06:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Tippia wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Training a specific skill takes time. Training another specific skill takes additional time. If I want to start flying Carriers on Ruby, I have to start training and wait. If I could remap skills, I wouldn't have to wait at all. See the difference?

Currently, training a new skill takes time.

If you can remap SP, training a new skill no longer takes time unless you're too new to have enough SP to shuffle or too poor to afford the remap.
Unless you buy a character.
No. Buying a character doesn't let Ruby fly a carrier. S/He has to wait for it or fly with a completely different character (which did indeed need time to get that ability) which most likely will lack some of the skills that Ruby has.

Also, that separate ability you buy with a second character had to be grown over time rather than instantly conjured into existence.

I get that "Ruby" can't, however.

Unless the person playing Ruby wanted this guy instead of waiting?
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Scopex81

Last bid was 16b buyout is 17
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155644


Buy 37m SP for 17b.

3-5m skillpoint remap on a long cooldown isn't going let very many people jump into a capital ship overnight.

They could cap it, enough to worth buying, not enough to be drastic. and it wouldn't impact the bazaar.

Cooldown could be 6 months, whatever the free neural remap is.



You're trying to downplay the effects of buying a charater.


I'd prefer as many ways for people to spend large amounts of ISK as possible. There is no shortage of personal wealth in EVE. Anythig that facilitates getting indy guys out blowing and getting blown up (an indy guy could remap into a couple combat skills to feel more comfortable)is good for EVE, it's good for the economy, and will be good for the PLEX.


I gett, and I can see, how something like this could be "taken advantage of", but I think that there are possitive effects on the game that outweigh something I can just turn my eye to. I wouldn't know that it was effecting me, anymore than I know that a purchased character is effecting me.


3-5m every few months is trivial compared to buying a character overnight.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2012-09-29 07:09:39 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Anythig that facilitates getting indy guys out blowing and getting blown up (an indy guy could remap into a couple combat skills to feel more comfortable)is good for EVE, it's good for the economy, and will be good for the PLEX.

No.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#103 - 2012-09-29 07:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I get that "Ruby" can't, however.
…it is the key difference that means you're not buying skills (much less SP) and which completely wrecks the assertions that SP remaps and character trading are remotely the same thing.

Quote:
3-5m skillpoint remap on a long cooldown isn't going let very many people jump into a capital ship overnight.
The cooldown would have to be long enough and the amount small enough that it would be pointless to ever do it, making the whole thing a waste of time to implement and balance properly. And it still wouldn't solve anything — only cause problems, so there's still nothing even remotely resembling a good argument to do it.

Quote:
You're trying to downplay the effects of buying a charater.
No. I'm fully aware of the effects. That's why I can tell you that they are minute compared to the game-breaking effects of SP remapping. The effects of buying a character are: you now have a second character that can do things in parallel to the character you already own. This is nothing that needs to be downplayed because the impact it has on the game is nil. The development of this character done within the confines of the mechanical limitations that control such development and the game is thus inherently balanced for, by, and to its existence.

…unlike what would happen if you could conjure up skill levels out of nowhere and bypass all those mechanics and that balance.

Quote:
I'd prefer as many ways for people to spend large amounts of ISK as possible.
That's nice. Try to think of some that don't include ignoring game mechanics and which do not break the game.

Quote:
3-5m every few months is trivial compared to buying a character overnight.
No, it really isn't. Ignoring game mechanics (commonly known as exploiting) is never trivial, no matter what the restrictions, and paying for such exploits takes it so far out of the realm of “trivial” that you'd have to be rather deluded to use the two in the same sentence. Playing a character that already exists in the game, on the other hand, is of absolutely no consequence whatsoever. It doesn't affect the game or its players.


Put another way, implementing SP remaps would require them to redesign the game from scratch and lose that unique quality that lets new players compete with old — it will never ever happen. Character trading, on the other hand, is just a character being built within the existing design and then being played within the existing design, having no special effect at all, which is why it's still around and providing benefits to the game.
Aerethir El-Kharisti
#104 - 2012-09-29 07:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Aerethir El-Kharisti
I think this looks like a reasonable service. I just don't understand why it is necessary to lay a restriction on it in the first place. Apparently rendering and saving a character's looks are a massive strain somewhere, so there had to be a restriction on it. For roleplaying purposes, it makes no sense to not change looks frequently, as you could always let a set of bioengineering nanobots run over your clones.

But for now, the option is at least better that what we had before.

(Edited to add: Also, it is a real plus that you don't have to use the NEX to resculpt)

With great power comes great electricity bill.
SketS47
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2012-09-29 07:59:59 UTC
(EVE Logic) What the F! Why on earth would we need to pay to reconstruct ourselves with plex? We die and are put back into clones in the very very very far future. So why on earth would it not be possible to edit ourselves as we see fit since were already immortal.

(Bitter vet rant) And what the f, found a new thing to make money on again? Whats next, neural remap for plex? Stop being capitalistic motherfuckers and get back to who you were when you started.

How about actually fixing sov, faction warfare, fixing the stupid implementations for miners, lowering safety in high sec... You promote this as a "hard cold world" but even a lemming wont die in high sec anymore...

Shame on you ccp shame on you!Evil
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#106 - 2012-09-29 08:01:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
You can buy any character right now in any configuration you want.
Close, but not quite. You can buy a character in any configuration the seller wants. You have no input. You also add no abilities to your character in doing so. If you want new abilities, you still have to spend time getting them and no amount of character trading will overcome this.

Quote:
Niggle over the details all you like, it doesn't change the fact ignorant and ultimately incorrect fiction that for all intents and purposes you end up with the same thing.
It's not a detail. It's a vast yawning chasm of difference with completely separate outcomes.

In one case, time (and money) has been spent to build a character, which is a completely separate entity that does not alter what your existing character can and cannot do, nor does your existing character alter what the new one can and cannot do.
In the other, no time would be spent (and quite likely no money either) to alter an existing character.

In particular, the “detail” as you call it is what ensures that new players and vets are on the same playing field and which ensures that SP is a completely pointless stat (beyond determining your clone cost). This lack of meaning is a good thing that needs to be left alone.

Ignore the actual details all you like, it doesn't change the fact that SP remapping would introduce a time skip mechanic that removes crucial core parts of the game.

Quote:
For the person who buys it, it's cash for character.
Yes: cash for a character, not for SP (be they new or repurposed). That is a very important difference right there, because it's what separates a case of using the existing mechanics to generate abilities and skipping the existing mechanics.


I have said this before but it bears repeating.

One of the main things that contributes to the longevity of this game (and makes this game vastly different than any other MMO) is that everything is destructible. From your noob ship with it's cargo of veld to the titan with the hundred PLEX in it's hold. Let's say CCP said that from now on everything but T3 cruisers will be destructible? Think about the consequences of that for a minute.

This is exactly what's happened with characters. They don't retire. They don't get destroyed. (Yes Tippia. There is a small few that don't get Ebayed or passed on through CB Roll) They just keep on keepin' on instead of being biomassed with the acct like they should be. So what we have right now is a huge surplus of high SP characters.

So; Miss Contrary, you can blurt out little things like "Close, but not quite. You can buy a character in any configuration the seller wants." all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that you can give me a wish list of skills and I can have a character that fits it exactly in your hanger a day later.

Couple that with the fact that since CCP has gotten into the RMT business character sales are booming. Why train when you can buy?

You say, "The effects of buying a character are: you now have a second character that can do things in parallel to the character you already own." which is completely out of left field and completely false. They are going as mains and only characters. Not secondary characters. People are playing the game for two weeks and then buying a two year old character on the same acct. Not a new one. Why not actually look at the CB and read the threads before spouting your little 'facts' that are completely false, as usual.

And here we have all these people advocating that this game needs the grind and time spent training yet are fine with immortal characters that you can purchase for next to nothing in terms of real dollars.

No; the whole system is already ****** due to that. Allowing SP remaps is not going to affect anything but who's whining loudest on the forums. When CCP starts binding characters to accts, I will hop on your band wagon. But right now, all you are doing is pissing into the wind and trying to justify why you smell like a urinal.

Mr Epeen Cool
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#107 - 2012-09-29 09:54:24 UTC
Scumbag EVE player

CCP offers new services; Bittervets call it a conspiracy
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#108 - 2012-09-29 11:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
nm

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#109 - 2012-09-29 11:40:34 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:


I think the only thing reasonable to put a plex price on is remaps...anything with SP will just break the game

Being able to adjust your SP every few months wouldn't be game breaking. You wouldn't be getting more SP, and it would be a way for long time players who may want to try something new to do so without having to worry about months of trainng to do so.

Imagine a guy who spent the last couple of years just training market and indy skills. He's reaching that point were he's kind of bored with building and selling, and he wants to try flying combat instead. He's got the point needed that he could fly a cap ship if he wanted, but the points in other places. He spends a couple of plexes, reallocates his points into the skills needed to fly a carreir or something. He can't really build or continue doing market stuff, but he can fly the carrier. He didn't spend months waiting to do it, and he's still playing.

Some people quit because they don't want to wait several months to do something they previously couldn't after playing a couple of years. This is a way to retain people.

Eventually you would reach a point were a service like this isn't even worth it due to the number of SP you have. Eventually you can pretty much do what you wanted.

I could see this also being 1 plex = X million skill points. Like say a plex every 1m SP. That way it's enough to usefull to move around SP in skills that don't actually have a heavy SP req. and expensive enough that people who want to go hog wild would have to spend a lot of money to do so.

And once every 3 months would be a heavy wait period for such a service.


Please feel free to explain how it would "break" the game. Even better, how does this "break" the game, but charaters sales have been in for years and hasn't broken anything. This is the same thing, only those people who only want to play with one account can benefit the same way as people who buy characters for alt accounts, and make CCP money at the same time.



Like.

CCP should implement this immediately. I think it should cost a lot though - perhaps 1 Billion per skill reset. Payable in ISK or Plex (a good way to get excess ISK out of the game actually).

I'd certainly use it - plenty of skills I have that I wish I didn't...

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
#110 - 2012-09-29 11:57:14 UTC
It would just make FOMs more prominent, since everyone will be able to shift instantly to them.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#111 - 2012-09-29 12:59:48 UTC
bloodknight2 wrote:
How about a "reset SP" for a plex?

Me gusta.


What a great idea! No one would ever abuse this... Ever.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Kult Altol
The Safe Space
#112 - 2012-09-29 13:11:45 UTC
Ugh this is gonna break the game, this is such crap. Can't believe this. Ugh game is so casual now. Might as well call it World of Eve...

jking

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

Sasha Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#113 - 2012-09-29 13:24:43 UTC
PLEX for resculp seems cool, if you are into dress up space barbies - have at itLol

On PLEX for a complete SP reallocation ...

Soi Mala wrote:
It would just make FOMs more prominent, since everyone will be able to shift instantly to them.


Agreed and +1

Would the advocates of SP reallocation also be happy for newer players to purchase missed subs (and hence SP)? I doubt it, even though the CB argument still can be applied in this case as well [The arguement would be something like this: I can by a nine year old character on CB, so why can't I buy 8 years of past subs, via PLEX, and add the SP to my year old character?]

No, we should live with our mistakes, be they a poor selection of past training choices or coming to the game late.
Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
#114 - 2012-09-29 13:38:52 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
Seems like a pretty steep price to pay just for something purely cosmetic, but if people want it bad enough I guess resculpting a model that has no impact on gameplay is worth $20. Straight

Oh man, you so funny CCP, this is an outrage, lets go shoot up the Jita statue some more! heheheee


Somthing like cosmetisc changes should be very cheap like 50mil isk max 300mil isk ;) also time for cheap plexes in game ;D

EvE isn't game, its style of living.
Stranger with Candy
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2012-09-29 13:47:44 UTC
Too expensive for a resculpt

Skill respeccing breaks a fundamental part of the game if it's going to be done in a way that is remotely useful and whoever said they wanted to be able to delete skills... +1 to you. Would be very nice to be able to clean up skills you've got no interest in possessing.

Sarmea Moon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2012-09-29 14:37:43 UTC
Meryl SinGarda wrote:
Scumbag EVE player

CCP offers new services; Bittervets call it a conspiracy



CCP offers SAME service, but allows you to pay in plex instead of just the $20 cash, and bittersemivetswithshortmemories scream conspiracy:D

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2012-09-29 14:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Sasha Deren wrote:
PLEX for resculp seems cool, if you are into dress up space barbies - have at itLol

On PLEX for a complete SP reallocation ...

Soi Mala wrote:
It would just make FOMs more prominent, since everyone will be able to shift instantly to them.


Agreed and +1

Would the advocates of SP reallocation also be happy for newer players to purchase missed subs (and hence SP)? I doubt it, even though the CB argument still can be applied in this case as well [The arguement would be something like this: I can by a nine year old character on CB, so why can't I buy 8 years of past subs, via PLEX, and add the SP to my year old character?]

No, we should live with our mistakes, be they a poor selection of past training choices or coming to the game late.


I'm not sure what you mean.

I woldn't want anyone to be able to buy SP directly, you should buy a character instead.

Imagine CCP releases an expansin; this expansion comes with a new feature, we can call it planetary interaction. Let's say you have no idea how this new feature works, so you invest like 500k SP into the skills only to find that you don't like it.

I see nothing wrong with being able to pay a Plex to move the 500k SP from the PI stuff into Accounting (lvl 4). I wouldn't be gaining anything, I would be losing the ability to do PI. Accounting lvl 5 requires me to spend another 635k SP at 3x training.

It can be as restricting as neccessary to avoid abuse.
I would rather have a limit to the amount of points you could move, and how often you can move them, than to let people move all their skills.

I would be willing to spend a plex just to move 500k SP once every 6 months. It would have as much impact on the game as redoing your appearance for plex, or buying a character.

5m SP is trival, 3m even more so.

It could even be restricted to 1m SP per skill group, so you can't take out or put in more than 1m SP into any distribution of skills within a skill catagory; for a total of 3m SP per remap. I would be willing to spend 6 plex to do this.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#118 - 2012-09-29 15:16:21 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
One of the main things that contributes to the longevity of this game (and makes this game vastly different than any other MMO) is that everything is destructible. From your noob ship with it's cargo of veld to the titan with the hundred PLEX in it's hold. Let's say CCP said that from now on everything but T3 cruisers will be destructible? Think about the consequences of that for a minute.

This is exactly what's happened with characters.
…and for good reasons: so that people get a sense of achievement and history and so they can build that character over time. The beauty of EVE is that SP doesn't matter — it's a useless stat beyond making your clone pricey — so having a whole bunch of high-SP characters doesn't hurt the game. It's not like many XP/Level-based games where all that high SP means that a ton of unbeatable characters are running around that new players can't catch up to. In EVE, the only thing a new player can't catch up with is that irrelevant total SP stat.

…which is why it's such a bone-headed idea to make that stat matter. If you could remap SP, SP becomes XP — the more the better — and older characters suddenly become infinitely more powerful than new players.

Quote:
So; Miss Contrary, you can blurt out little things like "Close, but not quite. You can buy a character in any configuration the seller wants." all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that you can give me a wish list of skills and I can have a character that fits it exactly in your hanger a day later.
Ok. Go unto the bazaar and find me a character that is fully blackops cross-trained with a full selection of invention skills and nothing else.

Quote:
Why train when you can buy?
Because what you want isn't available, and because what you buy will need training anyway. But sure, let's assume you're right. Then there is obviously no need for this deleterious SP remapping functionality anyway, right?

Quote:
You say, "The effects of buying a character are: you now have a second character that can do things in parallel to the character you already own." which is completely out of left field and completely false.
What's false about it? What other effects are there? How are those other effects in any way harmful to the game? While you're at it, explain why SP remapping will not have the effects listed.

Quote:
And here we have all these people advocating that this game needs the grind and time spent training yet are fine with immortal characters that you can purchase for next to nothing in terms of real dollars.
…because it's the grind that creates the balance and overall ecosystem of characters and because the characters available for purchase are subject to the same rules: they are restricted by time and by EVE's equivalent to “grinding” (which isn't really grinding at all).
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#119 - 2012-09-29 15:37:03 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Imagine CCP releases an expansin; this expansion comes with a new feature, we can call it planetary interaction. Let's say you have no idea how this new feature works, so you invest like 500k SP into the skills only to find that you don't like it.

I see nothing wrong with being able to pay a Plex to move the 500k SP from the PI stuff into Accounting (lvl 4). I wouldn't be gaining anything, I would be losing the ability to do PI. Accounting lvl 5 requires me to spend another 635k SP at 3x training.
What's wrong with it is that it would be massively abused to circumvent the character balancing mechanics. You wouldn't gain anything from it (actually, you would — you'd gain a skill you didn't train — but let's run with your naïve claim for the moment) but others would. They would gain immensely from it, so the feature would have to be designed around them, not you. The restrictions required to remove this abusive nature would have to be so huge as to make the functionality completely useless.

What's wrong with it is also that EVE is a game of choices and consequences. You invested a week and a half in something you didn't know anything about and made a poor choice, for the time being. You've learned and can move on, and hey, maybe at some point in the future, PI suddenly becomes really good and now you have a head start. There is simply no need for the kind of shuffling around that you describe because, again, EVE is not an XP/class/level system that locks you into a particular path or skill tree — if you want to train something, just do it. If you no longer use some particular set of skills, then so what? Just use something else.

Quote:
5m SP is trival, 3m even more so.
5M SP is an almost entire race's subcap ship line + main weaponry. That is not trivial — it's a FOTM-chaser's wet dream and makes racial skills pointless. 5M SP is the difference between having a perfect remap for a full year for a particular skill set and having no additional points in the relevant attributes whatsoever. That is not trivial — you just made attributes pointless.

Trivial is a rank-1 skill to IV (45k SP). A PLEX to move that once a year is getting closer to the kind of restriction needed, and as mentioned, this makes it close to useless, and the rare usage this would create isn't enough to warrant the mess of coding required to cover all the edge cases.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#120 - 2012-09-29 15:41:56 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


CCP, I get the reasoning for this, and I was mostly expecting it, but you gonna keep sneaking PLEX + AUR services in like this?



I got no problem with it TBH & like the idea... I only wish it was extended to the ability to change your charactor or corperations name for PLEX Big smile

An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'