Market Discussions

I mutibox 4 accounts. I run missions and mining depending on hour much focus I have to put on the game.

When I mission I use all 4 accounts, 3 combat and a salvager. but I do not run 3 missions simultaneously. I will run 1 BS with either a BC and logi or 2 BC for support. i usually complete level 4 missions in 10-15 minutes including loot and salvage. I generally get about 2-4 mil mission rewards, 20-30 mil in bounties, and 10-15 mil in salvage, plus 4500-8000 loyalty points which I do not count in my isk/hr (save them for buying faction mods for my own use.)

So I average about 40-50 mil per mission with 10-15 minute completion times. the 15 minute completion times are generally the high reward missions. so say 40 mil every 10 minutes. 240 mil an hour for 4 accounts, basically 60 mil/hr per account.

When I mine it is with 3 HULKS and and ORCA. I bring in 80-100 mil an hour worth of ore 20-25 mil an hour per account. Round it down to 20mil/hr

When I am mining I am usually busy doing something else at the same time, So I can not run missions rather than mine, as I can not give the game that much focus. It is spend the time mining or not do anything. Well maybe station trading.

I am a casual player. When I have time to actually play a decent amount per week, I can usually do about 10-15 hours a week of mining and 4-5 hours a week of missions. Plus manufacturing, PI, and some trading thrown in, netting me another 400-500 mil a week. This brings my total to 440-600 mil per week per account plus another 400-500 mil from indy and trading.

So even I as a casual player mutiboxing 4 accounts can potentially make 8-10 billion isk per month playing 15-20 hours a week. Even if PLEX was 1 bil each I could sub all 4 accounts and have over 6 bil left per month.

Now I very rarely get a month where I can play 15-20 hours every week. lately I have been closer to 40 hours a month. but that is still potentially 1.2 bil per account or 4.8 bil total. Which would still leave me 800 mil a month profit after paying for game time if PLEX hit 1 bil each.

If someone who averages 10 hours game time a week can still afford to pay game time with PLEX a 1 bil per PLEX than anyone who plays more than that should have an even easier time.

Since PLEX is only around 500 mil not 1 bil we really have nothing to complain about. Might as well complain

Just imagine what players who play 40-60 hours a week could bring in.

If you chose to spend your time PVPing either join an alliance that has a ship replacement program, learn to earn your isk like the carebears you so hate, Or buy PLEX to sell for the isk you need for ships. PVP is an isk sink, Unless you are ganking for profit you need to get your isk from other activities.

So the market setters have a different definition of "comfortable" than you do.




Fine, 30 clicks was an understatement. Let's see, Click up Client 1, Click to grab focus, Click+Drag to Orca, Click to minimize client. 4 clicks per account per 45 minutes. That's 80 mouse clicks per 45 minutes, or 106 per hour. Hell, lets double that to 212 clicks per hour for poops and giggles. Last time I checked, running one mission runner was significantly more than that, let alone 3 or 4 (especially adding in a salvage boat, I mean talk about RSI).




So I'm assuming miners (on average*) are smart enough to figure out how to make money efficiently. You're assuming they're not.

As for giving it a month, pre-Drone nerf, they had years and didn't switch.

*of course there are people who legitimately like mining for its own sake. I don't think there are enough of them to represent the price setting backbone of the mining fleet.

You're a moron.

If inflation is a "thing" in Eve for anything but PLEXes, would you care to explain to me why I can go buy a raven off the market in Jita for pretty much the same price that I did when I bought my first ratting raven back in 2006?

Minerals, and by extension Tech 1 goods, are more expensive now that they were a year ago or two years ago because CCP went and did drastic things to mineral supply by removing a huge portion of it. Inflation is a non-factor in this.

Ice is more expensive than it was two years ago because its price is only just now recovering from interdictions and hulkageddon and such.

And if you really want to talk about "out of control PLEX (game time, really) prices" then game time in 2006 - when I paid the same for a raven as I can now - cost me 90 million isk for a month.

I believe that in its current condition, Plex is in danger of becoming a speculative bubble

in my experience when most people buy Plex, they do not buy it for its underlying value (30 day subscription), they buy it because they believe its value will increase

I say this because I have known many Plex traders. most Plex traders (by their very nature) are very wealthy and already have enough of a subscription that they do not use these Plex to increase their game time. In other words, they DO NOT buy this asset because of it's actual value, because of what it can do, they buy it because of how much they believe this asset will appreciate. This is very similar to the housing bubble, where people bought houses that they did not intend to live in or use, they bought them because they "knew" that these houses would be worth more in the future

the amount of money given by missions and ratting (although outrageous) is linear, rats only spawn so often and are only worth so much, same with level 4 and 5 missions. These things should have caused inflation to rise quickly until prices adjusted, if you look at the graphs, Plex, is currently increasing [i]more quickly[i] than the value of other good , its value relative to everything else is going up.

I do not believe that Plex is showing the real value of inflation at this point, in short, what we have right now is Plex traders selling Plex to each other for larger and larger amounts of money.

again I am not saying that their is no inflation, quite the contrary CCP has printed incredible amounts of money, I am only pointing out that the value of Plex has gone up much FASTER than other things everyone needs, like ammo, mining crystals etc, part of the increase in plex is from speculation.

it might be tomorrow it might be a year from now but I do think relative prices of plex will come down a bit

The words free and market do not mean what you think they mean.

I can tell a lot of folks posting on this thread have never run or owned more than 3 accounts at once and have never done industrial mining more than 2 hours in their entire eve career.

I can also tell who here runs more than 5 accounts running mining ops and knows their stuff.

I think this topic is getting too far skewed to unimportant or irrelevant subject matter. But to continue that partially irrelevant subject:

I know a guy (in my corp) who has a 5-man team, he only runs the same thing and make 15m/tick per character. a tick is every 20 minutes (when you receive the bounty), so he makes 15x5x4 = 300mil/hour

To compare the task of someone who is directly injected with isk vs someone who mines is an inaccurate and unfair comparison. Here is why.

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0.0/level4/incursion
Ratters/Missions/bounties/rewards: You do the task, you get rewarded.

You don't have to cyno across the galaxy to collect this reward. You don't have to refine or process your reward. You even can collect some nice salvage and random meta4 loot! LP even to get some faction ammo or an implant!
(and wormhole ratting is a whole different kind of science, I have respect and pity for those crazy-heads)
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0.0 (hi-sec mining is for people who don't know how to join a real corporation)
Miners/Industrialists(the people who made the ship you're flying): You mine the belts over hours or days, in one day you can mine enough m3 to produce 1 battleship on your own, maybe. Or if you're a 0.0 mining high-ends then perhaps 2 battleships a day worth in high-ends (assuming you get the cherries)

You haul it someplace to refine it (with skills high enough to make it worth it and hopefully a low tax in the station)

You then need to decide what to do with it all, hauling whatever your decision is to a market hub to sell it. Thus you are risking your multi-billion isk ship packed with billions in high-ends to a place you don't know if you'll get ganked at to put it on the market (in which high-ends have decreased significantly in value, and the only market hubs I prefer to bring things to are the ones in hi-sec, seeing as how my 0.0 alliance has little need for the high quantity numbers of cheap megacyte and zydrine and morphite. the 0.0 market simply does not move fast except on faction, t2 modules, ammo, and drones.)

keep in mind you haven't made a penny yet (save the killing those few rats that spawn in a belt that you mine in) You have only spent more isk on fuel and risk and cyno alts to get your goods someplace to sell.

Then you sell the minerals/production for far less than that whole "Estimated value" price that it shows when you scroll the mouse over.

Now you have your isk, what do you do with it? You buy more fuel to keep your rorqual going, the isotopes to jump your ****, the pos fuel to keep your research pos and safe-up online, more mining crystals, other misc. like keeping your pvp pilot well fitted as most sane 0.0 alliances/corps require a player to be ready for war.

Now you have to jump your goods BACK to where you came somehow, safely. You could still lose everything at this point but you've made most of your isk already, yet you could still get killed along the way.

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So, who has it easier? Now you can't rat in every system, just like you can't mine in every system. But either 1 or 100 people can mine in the same system. You can't have too many people ratting in one system because there's always a guy who huffs and bitches he's not able to get the good **** and is stuck with the ewar anomalies where they have swarms of frigates and towers as opposed to say, forsaken hubs.

So, who can farm their isk faster and easier for a plex, both do well but here's the real kicker:

Ratters/Missions runners only need 1 to make a large sum of money.

What the HELL is 1 mining character going to achieve needing to go back and forth between a station? No boosters to use with alts. Sure you can fleet up but how many ratters fleet up? (all the ratters I know have alts to fleet up.)

Okay, so what can 1 industrialist produce? Maybe 1 battleship a week or two. A single lone miner cannot defend against a 3battleship 3 cruiser spawn in a 0.0 belt. You need a fleet. So in order for industry to make sense, you need to have multiple accounts to actually get anywhere with indy. Who is going to drop 100-500 dollars a month on a videogame? (the people who buy 30 plex to sell) I mean seriously? Who is gonna do something like that? (people who own a sim in SecondLife) seriously guys?! WHO!? Who would do that when you can farm for a plex for each character and then produce a ton of stuff to make a profit off of also?

When plex prices go up, industrialists who make a larger difference in this game quit.

When hi-end industrialists quit, every percentage of them that quit raises the percentage of anything they produced/mined.

When prices go up, everyone else in the game bitches that they can't afford anything because ship prices are too high.

When ship prices are too high, 0.0 wars don't happen.

When 0.0 wars don't happen, ice, fuel, tritanium, stops moving in the market, tech2 drops in prices drastically eliminating the point of moon mining in low-sec and even more so in 0.0.

When tech2 loses all value profits, industrialists unanchor their pos and fuels and pos modules flood the market that helps new 0.0 alliances, but there's no sov for them. no wars = no open space.

Dominoes, bro'ski.

But if you buy the minerals from the market they're not free anymore!

They might aswell be buying the portion of the plexes from the market so they can increase the price. But something must be done otherwise prices will spin out of control. My idea will be add pay with ISK in account options which will offer a certain fixed price to pay pay for your gametime and thus controling the price of plex. Either that or hire economists to give you some ideas what to do with the market. Ye shure might be easy to rat in 0.0 but not everyone lives in 0.0 and the more prices increase the more ppl will have to rat the more screwed the market becomes. Some ppl have sugested 5 acount mining but come on lol 1 account is fine 2 accounts is ok 5 accounts its just too much and at that point the game turns into a grind !

The most funny part, however, is that people dont account for the fact that if everyone had dozens of miners multiboxing, those would need dozens of plexes, thus driving up the demand for plexes and thus driving up their prices.

I was talking about FW missions. If the ability to farm 200k+ LP/hr in a stealth bomber remains post-patch, then even at a paltry 300 isk/hr that's 60m/hr. Put in the tiny amount of effort required to find 500 isk/LP, and that's 100m/hr instead. In other words, even after they nerf Tier 5 cashouts, it will easily continue to generate incursion level income, at very little risk...because lets be honest, a stealth bomber in lowsec isn't much risk at all.