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Rebalanced mining - hulk vs mack - tweaks needed?

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#41 - 2012-09-25 16:26:11 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Is the Skiff actually useful for its tank in low or nullsec? I heard it's common for people to just bubble gates and watch local in null. Because they can warp to safety before an attacker can reach them, they don't need extra tank and can use a Hulk. In lowsec, it seems that if you're caught in a mining ship you're dead anyway, the extra tank just holds it off a few seconds.

If that's true, the extra tank is only useful against suicide ganking in highsec. It's said that because the tank on the Mackinaw is so high, the Skiff's tank is redundant. Does this mean only someone who wants you dead will suicide gank you? If this is the only case where somone will gank you, does it really matter how high the tank is? They don't care about profit and so will bring whatever it takes to kill you, ten dessies or ten Brutixes (Brutices? w/e)

Is this why the Skiff is considered useless? Please correct me where I am wrong


More or less.

Because the macks tank makes it unprofitable to kill they are effectivly safe but the hulks tanks puts it just within the realm of profitabliliy. The skiff is made redundent because why get one when the mack can do the same job and mine more.
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#42 - 2012-09-25 16:45:11 UTC
Spurty wrote:
Er it looks balance to me.

Cargo hold is a very silly thing to moan about.

Like complaining your Ferrari is useless as it lacks coffee cup holders.

Horses for courses.

Where's your analysis of fighting for the ore? Who gets more ore mined over time?

Not the Mack

ISK is supposed to be worth fighting over. Fight over that, not cargo!



Combat ships balance between EHP, firepower and speed.
Exhumer balance between cargospace, yield and EHP.

Cargohold is the most favored 'trait' in an Exhumer, which makes it important.
But don't take my word for it, the miners have already shown us.

I've scanned thousands of Exhumers, and other gankers can easily back this up:
In high-sec, the vast majority of Exhumers (Hulks/Macks) were cargo-fit.

Cargo fits vs Yield fits vs EHP fits were approximately 6:3:1, in my estimation.
Why? Likely because miners enjoy maximizing the number of cycles before being required to move ore.
It increases the 'AFK-ness' of an Exhumer - highly desirable....even in a fleet where you have a cargo Orca standing by.

The idea that the Hulk's lack of EHP and cargohold is somehow balanced by 'being in a fleet with combat ships' is flawed because it simply doesn't jive with how mining (and suicide ganking) works in practice.

Gankers were rarely stopped or deterred by the presence of warships nearby, and ganking (while widely complained about) was rare enough that the theoretical 'mining guard' might as well been mining himself. After all, what is the 'guard' going to do? Suicide ganking happens in seconds, is initiated by the ganker, the ganker is going to die, and arty kills instantly.

The 'balance' that the Hulk receives from being in a fleet is simply illusory - which is why Mackinaws are used in fleets as well as solo.

Like I said, it appears that CCP weighted the value of 'Yield' too heavily - ignoring the simple fact that Cargospace is what miners desire most.

Simply for the sake of argument - you could probably give the Mackinaw the worst EHP AND the worst Yield (make it 1-3-3) - yet people would still fly it in droves because of the 35K cargo capacity is so convenient.

No need to go that far - but we are going from a situation where we saw at least 2 of the 3 Exhumers used..... to a one-size fits all high-sec mining industry.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#43 - 2012-09-25 17:29:42 UTC
I mine in a variety of high second systems, and the only ships I ever see mining are hulks with Orca support...or Retrievers. I've seen less then 10 Macs out mining since the rebalance.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#44 - 2012-09-25 18:00:31 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:
I mine in a variety of high second systems, and the only ships I ever see mining are hulks with Orca support...or Retrievers. I've seen less then 10 Macs out mining since the rebalance.

Clearly you need to expand your horizons. Try visiting any of the numerous ice belts in high-sec. It's an AFK paradise (unless James 315 is around, lol).

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Amber Coldheart
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-09-25 18:07:08 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:
I mine in a variety of high second systems, and the only ships I ever see mining are hulks with Orca support...or Retrievers. I've seen less then 10 Macs out mining since the rebalance.

There are a few industrialists multiboxing Hulks with Orca support in the area i inhabit, but the vast majority of miners i see are solo miners in Mack's (or Retrievers).
Infinite Force
#46 - 2012-09-25 18:18:28 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
Combat ships balance between EHP, firepower and speed.
Exhumer balance between cargospace, yield and EHP.

Cargohold is the most favored 'trait' in an Exhumer, which makes it important.
But don't take my word for it, the miners have already shown us.

I've scanned thousands of Exhumers, and other gankers can easily back this up:
In high-sec, the vast majority of Exhumers (Hulks/Macks) were cargo-fit.

Cargo fits vs Yield fits vs EHP fits were approximately 6:3:1, in my estimation.
Why? Likely because miners enjoy maximizing the number of cycles before being required to move ore.
It increases the 'AFK-ness' of an Exhumer - highly desirable....even in a fleet where you have a cargo Orca standing by.

The idea that the Hulk's lack of EHP and cargohold is somehow balanced by 'being in a fleet with combat ships' is flawed because it simply doesn't jive with how mining (and suicide ganking) works in practice.

Gankers were rarely stopped or deterred by the presence of warships nearby, and ganking (while widely complained about) was rare enough that the theoretical 'mining guard' might as well been mining himself. After all, what is the 'guard' going to do? Suicide ganking happens in seconds, is initiated by the ganker, the ganker is going to die, and arty kills instantly.

The 'balance' that the Hulk receives from being in a fleet is simply illusory - which is why Mackinaws are used in fleets as well as solo.

Like I said, it appears that CCP weighted the value of 'Yield' too heavily - ignoring the simple fact that Cargospace is what miners desire most.

Simply for the sake of argument - you could probably give the Mackinaw the worst EHP AND the worst Yield (make it 1-3-3) - yet people would still fly it in droves because of the 35K cargo capacity is so convenient.

No need to go that far - but we are going from a situation where we saw at least 2 of the 3 Exhumers used..... to a one-size fits all high-sec mining industry.

QFT

There were a few of us that told CCP before they made these changes to the barges, that the Mack would become the new 'king of the hill' (so to speak). You can look up the posts if you're desperate. Did CCP listen? Not really. I like a few of the things that were put out there, but are the barges truly balanced? Not really.

For me, I rank Yield > Space > EHP. Why?

I am one of those 'crazies' that likes to mine in WH's. No local, no way to tell if that cloaky SB has been camping the grav site for the past couple of days. No way to tell (other than d-scan) if someone is probing to find me.

For dangerous mining ops, you want to get in, get the ore and get out. I mine in hulks for the best yield -- and let me assure you that in a Rorqual boosted op when you're controlling 6+ toons, there is NO SUCH THING as "afk" mining. I'm either a) spamming d-scan b) moving ore to a jetcan c) spamming d-scan or d) targeting new rocks / changing crystals.

Periodically, I have the Ore picked up.

Are there a bunch of "obvious" signs (cans/barges on scan) that some op is occurring, sure, but by maximizing your yield, you are also minimizing your exposure thereby maximizing your safety (as much as it can be done).

I have a fleet of Skiffs, Macks & Hulks and have seriously considered flying Macks just because the larger Ore hold eases the logistical nightmare in trying to dump ore to jetcans (and to all you 'use an Orca' whiners out there, go self-destruct your ship). Until CCP fixes their nightmarish UI coupled with a 1.25 cycle Hulk Ore hold, trying to dump Ore to an Orca with multiple other Hulks is not even remotely "fun".

If you can't relate to that last statement, you are not in a proper mining op and have no grounds for any "rebuttals."

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Idris Helion
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-09-25 18:21:11 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Ana Vyr wrote:
I mine in a variety of high second systems, and the only ships I ever see mining are hulks with Orca support...or Retrievers. I've seen less then 10 Macs out mining since the rebalance.

Clearly you need to expand your horizons. Try visiting any of the numerous ice belts in high-sec. It's an AFK paradise (unless James 315 is around, lol).


Meh. Ice mining is a brutal bore. I'm not normally an AFK defender, but ice mining is the exception. Macks are really the only choice for ice because you can launch your drones, turn on your lasers, and then go away for half an hour or 45 minutes. Until CCP wises up and makes ice harvesting more like PI, we're stuck with this horrible time-sink called ice mining. The Mack only makes this a bit more tolerable.

I'm not sure if people are AFK or not in ice fields, and I don't care, because I'm mostly AFK myself when ice mining: watching TV, reading, or dual-boxing and doing something interesting with my alt.

I see a good mix of ore mining ships in my home system. Macks are pretty common, but mostly it's 2 or 3 Hulks with an Orca booster. I generally use Macks in my own mining ops until I get more than 3 corpies in an op, at which point it makes sense to switch to Hulks/Orca.

My favorite mining vessel after the rebalance isn't even an exhumer, though -- it's the Retriever. Cheap, high-capacity, and with yield in shouting distance of its far-more-expensive Mackinaw cousin. (Only problem is the drone bay: you can only carry a full flight of light combat drones or mining drones, but not both. Ah, well.)
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#48 - 2012-09-25 18:42:10 UTC
I said it 8B times in the old thread.

Because the Mack can tank enough to stop a profit based gank while still outmining the Skiff, the Skiff is useless (for mining). Any gank that could kill a slightly tanked Mack would be for fun, and so the Skiff would still be dead.
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-09-25 19:11:33 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
I said it 8B times in the old thread.

Because the Mack can tank enough to stop a profit based gank while still outmining the Skiff, the Skiff is useless (for mining). Any gank that could kill a slightly tanked Mack would be for fun, and so the Skiff would still be dead.



The only way the Skiff will ever see 'wide spread' use is if it gets a +2 to warp strength making it a true low sec/ null sec miner.
Hypercake Mix
#50 - 2012-09-25 20:21:00 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Dragging ore into the orca corp hangar isn't taxing. Stop trying to make it sound like it is.

Your idea of "significant higher effort/yield" is all out of whack. We're looking at 45 minutes to get to level 1, less than a day to get to level 3, a little over 5 days to get to level 4 (which you'll train to when doing the mack thing anyways), and 24 more days to get to level 5 for a minor increase in yield over level 4.

Unless all you do is mine all day long (and god help you if that's all you use eve for, play x3 or whatever other strategy/resource management game instead, then), then that extra yield will not matter one whit.

It is what it is.

Effort/yield in flying a Hulk vs flying a Mackinaw. Not the skill training.

I don't mine all the time. Hell, when I do mine, I use an AB Skiff with only one MLU. I'm talking about the people that do mining on a larger scale, for longer hours, where every bit of mining yield counts.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-09-25 20:25:59 UTC
It's still not "significant higher", it's icing on the cake.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Nex Parietis
Interstellar Booty Hunters
Abyssal Booty Hunters
#52 - 2012-09-25 20:26:17 UTC
I fly a scram fitted procurer. does that make me strange?

On topic though, I do think a ship that has been focused on cargo capacity should have a weaker defensive ability than one set up to pull more or in(or focused on defense).

I do agree that the Macks/retrievers should be the weaker of the tanks of the new ships, since a cargo focused vessel tends to be weaker normally anyway.
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#53 - 2012-09-25 20:31:14 UTC
Judging by your rankings, the skiff is clearly the best exhumer.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Hypercake Mix
#54 - 2012-09-25 20:38:01 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
It's still not "significant higher", it's icing on the cake.

Perhaps we have different opinions on what "significantly higher" actually equates to.
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#55 - 2012-09-25 21:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Raptor
I think the new barge changes are absolutely Awesome,

Never ending constant hulkageddons financed by the Goon Super Carebears in Nullsec who seemed to have wanted a monopoly on the whole economy, reduced Eve population by 10 thousand players on average .

Thats bad for everybody, especially the Devs who were worried about job security Cool

Long live the Mack!

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-09-25 21:40:11 UTC
Peter Raptor wrote:
Goon Super Carebears

I love it when people like you try to insult us by calling us carebears, after you've huddled in stations like scared sheep because you were too afraid to tank your ship; you might lose out on yield!

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#57 - 2012-09-25 21:48:39 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
I said it 8B times in the old thread.

Because the Mack can tank enough to stop a profit based gank while still outmining the Skiff, the Skiff is useless (for mining). Any gank that could kill a slightly tanked Mack would be for fun, and so the Skiff would still be dead.


Perhaps the Skiff should be considered for a Gas Harvesting bonus.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2012-09-25 22:34:56 UTC
I'm drunk so if I went out with mining barge atm I would probably die before finding the 1st asteroid. That's why I go out with pvp ship and still end up dying but will have less remorse in the morning. If I get lucky there actually will be some fun between the undocking and the dying part.

However this topic still remains valid and should be considered very thoroughly by the decision makers.

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Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#59 - 2012-09-26 02:23:28 UTC
Trit 6.00 ISK
Plex 580 million ISK

Be glad anyone is mining. I sure as hell don't.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#60 - 2012-09-26 15:50:07 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
I said it 8B times in the old thread.

Because the Mack can tank enough to stop a profit based gank while still outmining the Skiff, the Skiff is useless (for mining). Any gank that could kill a slightly tanked Mack would be for fun, and so the Skiff would still be dead.


Perhaps the Skiff should be considered for a Gas Harvesting bonus.



I wouldn't be opposed to that, but then it starts down the old path of "One exhumer for each type of mining"

Though I believe the "fit rigs to mine ice or merx" was slapped together and poorly thought out.
It was rushed, just like the entire patch.

Originally the barge balance was slated for winter, but it was quickly rushed out, probably because the miner crying had reached a fever pitch.