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Is 180b isk per week from factional warfare normal? Is it balanced?
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Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2012-09-25 16:38:13 UTC
I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but all those implants are nowhere near worth that estimated value. On top of that its going to be hell to sell even half of those at a portion of what they are worth. All militias have access to the same implants. Many of those implants only sell 5 units or so a day in all of new eden. So much supply and so little demand, yeah have fun selling those.
Dirk Culliford
Zero G Universal Enterprises
#122 - 2012-09-25 16:45:23 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:


75% of the ISK sink though is reduced at tier 5. I wish we could see the real numbers but with CCP Diagoras gone any stats you make up are derived purely out of your arse. I do think in the short term we may be seeing large amoubts ISK being deleted but since the implant market is not that elastic over the long term LESS ISK will be taken out due to unchanged demand of most faction LP store items & the 75% ISK reduction of the sink at Tier 5

I think I can safely predict from these ~6months of ISK sink reductions we'll be seeing 3+ years worth of implants overstocked in the market which cost three quaters cheaper to 'make' then in any other LP store ( thus the ISK sink will be reduced from its average 6 trillion amonth reported by CCP Diagoras last February https://twitter.com/CCP_Diagoras/status/174224813622181888
http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html).



I wish we could see the real numbers but otherwise any stats you make up are purely derived out of your arse.


(see what I did there)
Pipa Porto
#123 - 2012-09-25 17:27:56 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
FW is currently broken, far more broken than it was before the "fix." CCP has put forward some solid ideas to actually fix it though I think there is tons of room for improvement in them.

Currently, FW is not an isk faucet since it does not generate significant amounts of isk (FW lvl4's do create a little, maybe 2M per mission). But its role as isk sink has been diminished due to greatly reduced LP store isk costs. Additionally, everything is so damn cheap at tier 5 that it makes any non-FW LP basically worthless. The only good bit of news here is the losing side of both fronts has greatly enhanced faction item values since FW LP can't buy them reasonably.


The only possible way that is true is if people are leaving significant amounts of LP un-redeemed on L5 day.

If they aren't, the amount of ISK sunk per LP stays the same no matter what Tier the faction is at, so the total amount of ISK sunk stays the same.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Kogh Ayon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2012-09-25 19:23:07 UTC
Smodab Ongalot wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
But its role as isk sink has been diminished due to greatly reduced LP store isk costs.


I feel the need to correct this very common misconception.

Tier level DOES NOT affect the isk/lp ratio sink.

Since the tier based cost savings affect both LP and ISK cost, the ratio remains constant regardless of tier. The only thing that changes is the number of items that are created.

Also, I'll confirm that you can easily make 5b/week on a single account part-time AFK plexing using a 900k SP toon.


True. Maybe a better way is just keeping the isk needs the same and reduce the lp needs by tier
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2012-09-25 19:25:16 UTC
A better way would CCP fixing the system so it isn't farmville in space anymore. Who cares about how much isk it sinks?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Imports Plus
Doomheim
#126 - 2012-09-25 19:31:03 UTC
Takezo Wifebeater wrote:
When do faction tiers reach 5 anyway? They seem to be at lvl 1 most of them time (occasionally 2) from what I've seen.


There is an underground community coordination that takes place with a specified "cash out" day. It's all very hush hush and kept under wraps because some of the prime drivers of this farmville are current CSM members.

It totally feels like gaming the system and everyone who does it is left feeling a little dirty, but once they pile up billions of isk for hardly any effort they get over it real quick and start priming the systems for the next cash out.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#127 - 2012-09-25 20:00:46 UTC
Smodab Ongalot wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
But its role as isk sink has been diminished due to greatly reduced LP store isk costs.


I feel the need to correct this very common misconception.

Tier level DOES NOT affect the isk/lp ratio sink.

Since the tier based cost savings affect both LP and ISK cost, the ratio remains constant regardless of tier. The only thing that changes is the number of items that are created.

Also, I'll confirm that you can easily make 5b/week on a single account part-time AFK plexing using a 900k SP toon.


Your spouting about ratios is ridiculas. The isk reduction per item of each faction item adds up & there is no way demand will be able to catch up for years. Dr E is going to find out soon if he already hasnot that the 6 Trillion ISK a month LP sink is going to be halved or only three-quarters what it was last February starting I suspect mid February 2013 and lasting until 2014 or 2015 thanks to the plowing of the implant markets. It would have been worse if the Goons secretly sold off thier implant hord from thier 'exploight'
Dr E may have been talking about the needs for new ISK sinks last fanfest but what the DEVs did here is reduce a sink over the long term.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Pipa Porto
#128 - 2012-09-25 20:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
DarthNefarius wrote:
Your spouting about ratios is ridiculas. The isk reduction per item of each faction item adds up & there is no way demand will be able to catch up for years. Dr E is going to find out soon if he already hasnot that the 6 Trillion ISK a month LP sink is going to be halved or only three-quarters what it was last February starting I suspect mid February 2013 and lasting until 2014 or 2015 thanks to the plowing of the implant markets. It would have been worse if the Goons secretly sold off thier implant hord from thier 'exploight'
Dr E may have been talking about the needs for new ISK sinks last fanfest but what the DEVs did here is reduce a sink over the long term.


The only way that is possible is if people leave significant amounts of LP un-converted.

Each LP converted X ISK as soon as it's converted different Tiers do not change this. If the same total amount of LP is converted, the same total amount of ISK is sunk.

What happens to the products of that conversion do not matter when talking about ISK sinks.


If the Goon Cabal had not had their FWOREX rolled back, something on the order of a Trillion ISK would have stayed out of the Economy (it had already been sunk, so rolling it back simply feeds the ISK back into the economy).

Your complete lack of understanding as to what an ISK sink is doesn't change the facts.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#129 - 2012-09-25 20:10:23 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Your spouting about ratios is ridiculas. The isk reduction per item of each faction item adds up & there is no way demand will be able to catch up for years. Dr E is going to find out soon if he already hasnot that the 6 Trillion ISK a month LP sink is going to be halved or only three-quarters what it was last February starting I suspect mid February 2013 and lasting until 2014 or 2015 thanks to the plowing of the implant markets. It would have been worse if the Goons secretly sold off thier implant hord from thier 'exploight'
Dr E may have been talking about the needs for new ISK sinks last fanfest but what the DEVs did here is reduce a sink over the long term.


The only way that is possible is if people leave significant amounts of LP un-converted.

Each LP converted X ISK as soon as it's converted different Tiers do not change this. If the same total amount of LP is converted, the same total amount of ISK is sunk.

What happens to the products of that conversion do not matter when talking about ISK sinks.


Incorrect more faction items at 75% less of an ISK SINK are being flooded into a market without an increased demand for implants
There are not going to be that many more implants bought ( the implant market is not elastic even with cost savings) thus the ISK sink is reduced ~75% per purchase. Faction Ammo may be more elastic with corresponding cost savings butnowhere near the 75% reduction
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2012-09-25 20:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
DarthNefarius wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Your spouting about ratios is ridiculas. The isk reduction per item of each faction item adds up & there is no way demand will be able to catch up for years. Dr E is going to find out soon if he already hasnot that the 6 Trillion ISK a month LP sink is going to be halved or only three-quarters what it was last February starting I suspect mid February 2013 and lasting until 2014 or 2015 thanks to the plowing of the implant markets. It would have been worse if the Goons secretly sold off thier implant hord from thier 'exploight'
Dr E may have been talking about the needs for new ISK sinks last fanfest but what the DEVs did here is reduce a sink over the long term.


The only way that is possible is if people leave significant amounts of LP un-converted.

Each LP converted X ISK as soon as it's converted different Tiers do not change this. If the same total amount of LP is converted, the same total amount of ISK is sunk.

What happens to the products of that conversion do not matter when talking about ISK sinks.


Incorrect more faction items at 75% less of an ISK SINK are being flooded into a market without an increased demand for implants
There are not going to be that many more implants bought ( the implant market is not elastic even with cost savings) thus the ISK sink is reduced ~75% per purchase. Faction Ammo may be more elastic with corresponding cost savings butnowhere near the 75% reduction

Wait, how does that make sense? The demand for an item doesn't change the ratio of isk to LP in its cost. And if I have the same LP but cost is halved I buy twice as much and spend the same amount of isk and LP. More items are injected but the same amount of isk is sunk.
Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#131 - 2012-09-25 20:17:11 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Your spouting about ratios is ridiculas. The isk reduction per item of each faction item adds up & there is no way demand will be able to catch up for years. Dr E is going to find out soon if he already hasnot that the 6 Trillion ISK a month LP sink is going to be halved or only three-quarters what it was last February starting I suspect mid February 2013 and lasting until 2014 or 2015 thanks to the plowing of the implant markets. It would have been worse if the Goons secretly sold off thier implant hord from thier 'exploight'
Dr E may have been talking about the needs for new ISK sinks last fanfest but what the DEVs did here is reduce a sink over the long term.


The only way that is possible is if people leave significant amounts of LP un-converted.

Each LP converted X ISK as soon as it's converted different Tiers do not change this. If the same total amount of LP is converted, the same total amount of ISK is sunk.

What happens to the products of that conversion do not matter when talking about ISK sinks.


Incorrect more faction items at 75% less of an ISK SINK are being flooded into a market without an increased demand for implants
There are not going to be that many more implants bought ( the implant market is not elastic even with cost savings) thus the ISK sink is reduced ~75% per purchase. Faction Ammo may be more elastic with corresponding cost savings butnowhere near the 75% reduction

I see you are one of those people who like to repeat things until they become true. Good luck with that.

For the rest of you, his mistake is this: the ISK sinking (i.e. removal from the game) happens when the LP are redeemed, not when the items gained thereby are sold.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#132 - 2012-09-25 20:25:59 UTC
Gorn Arming wrote:
[
I see you are one of those people who like to repeat things until they become true. Good luck with that.


Nah I'm not as good as those that lobbied for the NERFing of Incursions by saying it was the blame of all Inflation in all of Eve.

An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Pipa Porto
#133 - 2012-09-25 21:49:35 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Incorrect more faction items at 75% less of an ISK SINK are being flooded into a market without an increased demand for implants
There are not going to be that many more implants bought ( the implant market is not elastic even with cost savings) thus the ISK sink is reduced ~75% per purchase. Faction Ammo may be more elastic with corresponding cost savings butnowhere near the 75% reduction


You're forgetting that the LP cost decreases proportionally with the ISK cost as tier goes up, so 1 LP sinks the same amount of ISK at Tier 1 that it does at Tier 5.

The market does not matter when we're talking about ISK sinks. Unless you are claiming that people are leaving significant amounts of LP un-redeemed, the same amount of ISK is sunk no matter how much stuff it's converted into. The ISK is sunk at the point of LP redemption. No later, so things that happen after that point (like selling the thing) do not affect the sink.

If you want to claim that as prices fall people will quit doing FW, then you might have a point, but that has nothing to do with the tier system.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#134 - 2012-09-25 21:51:41 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Gorn Arming wrote:
[
I see you are one of those people who like to repeat things until they become true. Good luck with that.


Nah I'm not as good as those that lobbied for the NERFing of Incursions by saying it was the blame of all Inflation in all of Eve.




Incursions were (and still are) an enormous ISK Faucet.

ISK Faucets exert an inflationary pressure on the economy.

FW is an enormous ISK Sink at the same time as it's a [Stuff] Faucet.

Both ISK Sinks and [Stuff] Faucets exert a deflationary pressure on the economy.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#135 - 2012-09-25 22:24:23 UTC
Actually you're right, the isk sink aspect doesn't change. A small brain fart on my part. That said, as noted there is a limited market for the stuff. Eventually FW LP will be worth absolutely nothing and at this rate, it won't take long for that to happen. And since FW LP is basically each races master LP, those winning factions will suffer greatly for a long time to come. But as said, this has boosted the non-FW LP for the losing factions a little. So there is an up shot for me personally.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
ECM Jesus
Wormhole Exploration And Production
#136 - 2012-09-25 22:37:59 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
Actually you're right, the isk sink aspect doesn't change. A small brain fart on my part. That said, as noted there is a limited market for the stuff. Eventually FW LP will be worth absolutely nothing and at this rate, it won't take long for that to happen. And since FW LP is basically each races master LP, those winning factions will suffer greatly for a long time to come. But as said, this has boosted the non-FW LP for the losing factions a little. So there is an up shot for me personally.


Time to understand the truth of the church of ECM. We have been farming 100b biweekly/player since just after inferno. The fw lp store has so many items and the market usually recovers after a week or two. Besides the implants will increase in value after winter expansion when ccp nerfs it.

To anyone calling this a exploit please understand how many hours we put into this and with how many chars. I have personally 10 farmer alts + a pvp main to protect them for the mity hattery.