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Wasted space
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Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#61 - 2012-09-24 14:59:03 UTC


Name me an army that can teleport instantly from one side of the earth to another and I'll show you an army that isn't so fussed about leaving troops behind to defend their country.

It was Fredrick II who I believe said "He who defends everything, defends nothing". It is far more sensible to let you attack something, wait to be told about it and turn up the next time they know you will be back then it is to send out patrols all the time. Man power is part of it but also because frankly anyone you left behind wouldn't be able to stop a decent sized fleet ANYWAY.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-09-24 15:37:12 UTC
Andski wrote:

npc alts are not 'people'

said faceless goonswarm person Shocked

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#63 - 2012-09-24 17:42:13 UTC
HELOOOOOO - I've done that same thing a dozen times. Nullsec is empty!
WHY DO YOU THINK THEY ARE ATTACKING HI SEC MINERS!!!!!!

Here we are in a sand-box, no one know how to make any FU@KING Castles.

Sov system sucks
Not enough players

Something just isn't working. Its kind of scary actually.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#64 - 2012-09-24 21:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:

It was Fredrick II who I believe said "He who defends everything, defends nothing". It is far more sensible to let you attack something, wait to be told about it and turn up the next time they know you will be back then it is to send out patrols all the time. Man power is part of it but also because frankly anyone you left behind wouldn't be able to stop a decent sized fleet ANYWAY.

You were trying to form a rebuttal and you did in fact reiterate my point and that point is highlighted.

If I could come in and put serious "OMG" pain on your infrastructure without "waiting" and without having to "come back" would the strategy of a 100% offensive force still apply or are you going to really need to field a defensive force of size 23/7?

And even more so, "anyone you left behind wouldn't be able to stop a decent sized fleet". << EXACTLY. So you need to leave MORE behind. CEO's will need to make choices - guns OR butter.

Atm, sov is all guns AND butter.

(And Fredricks point specifically dealt with the neccessity to protect strategic points which might be applicable. Depends on interpretation).


If I TLDR'd my entire thread: Infrastructure has a PAUSE button.

We need to shake THAT out of the game. Make EVE REAL TIME.

Oh wait....

Seriously, whether that shake-up would be a detriment or a benefit is the bit I'd be keen to see a comment/debate on.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2012-09-24 21:49:52 UTC
The worst thing about these threads is that no one thinks things through beyond taking a system.

Suppose CCP did change things up so your plucky little alliance could quickly take undefended systems.

What next?

Have you figured in paying for sov bills and upgrades? How about logistics? How are you going to get supplies in and resources out?

And now you are surrounded by less-than friendly players. Maybe the system is so worthless to them that they don't bother taking it back. You'll find yourself being a sort of game reserve, and they send non-stop frigate roams to harass you for cheap laughs.

Go grab a history book and look up the periods of small Italian and German principalities and city states. You'll find a history of convoluted treaty politics. Small players who didn't get powerful friends or learn to be diplomatic were swept aside.

Even if CCP makes taking undefended/worthless systems easier, you will soon become what you hate. You'll have to blue everyone around you so you can just go about your day-to-day business. You'll start investing in caps and jump bridges to negotiate the vast amounts of space. Then you'll start getting your cap pilots to fly with neighboring blue cap pilots to blob on enemies blobs.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-09-24 22:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Touval Lysander wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
You think we like timers? As much as helicoptordicking supers around it gets old real fast. What was your complain again?

Yeah, our helicoptor basically is stopped by the reinforce timer.

Without that, it would go all the way in.

As it would for everyone else which is kinda my point.

Except that most people's people refuse to accpet the simple fact that we have what we have due to numbers, not because of anything special or because CCP likes us more.

If your issue is we should have to defend it, we do, when it actually needs defending. No mechanic in game is going to fix the behavior of the people on the outiside looking in. If a group really wanted something we have, they would attack it. Even if you don't like timers you can still use them to YOUR advantage. That's where organization and politicing comes in. We're at the mercy of timers as much as anyone else is, learn to use them to your advantage by working with others instead of focusing on the fact that they exist.

And once again, no times means EASIER for us, not harder. it won't make it easier for anyone of considerably smaller numbers. If we had to patrol our territory due to constant threat, we would have MORE people logged in at any given time then we already do, and no alliance of a smaller size would be able to match our numbers.


But I'm sure you'll just come back with another "you obviously don't get it" responce, as that's been the only thing you've been capable of throughout the thread. Not so apparent troll become blantantly obvious.

Edit: BTW, pick an arguement and stick with it, you've been changing your "point" every couple pages.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#67 - 2012-09-24 22:23:26 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

1: The worst thing about these threads is that no one thinks things through beyond taking a system.
2: Have you figured in paying for sov bills and upgrades? How about logistics? How are you going to get supplies in and resources out?
3:And now you are surrounded by less-than friendly players. Maybe the system is so worthless to them that they don't bother taking it back.
4:Go grab a history book and look up the periods of small Italian and German principalities and city states. You'll find a history of convoluted treaty politics. Small players who didn't get powerful friends or learn to be diplomatic were swept aside.
5:Even if CCP makes taking undefended/worthless systems easier, you will soon become what you hate. You'll have to blue everyone around you so you can just go about your day-to-day business. You'll start investing in caps and jump bridges to negotiate the vast amounts of space. Then you'll start getting your cap pilots to fly with neighboring blue cap pilots to blob on enemies blobs.

1: That's why I started the thread. To engage the debate about it and get some input. (I know enough and see enough to recognise what's at fault too)
2: No different to anyone else currently. Smaller does make it easier too doesn't it?
3: Again. No different to current. Just that more of that space is available so there are more smaller alliances and less absolute naps.
4: If history is going to be used than I can give you several examples of history where not defending all of it in "Real time'" was a very serious problem.
5: see 3

Again. I'm seeing acknowledgment of the issue but defense of the status quo.

I've continually stated that the methods to obtain and secure sov MUST remain within an alliances capabilities - that's the decision of the respective CEO's. Whether they chose to be a belligerent neighbour or ally up is their problem.

The key point is that if you cannot defend it all in REAL TIME then you can't have it all.

You or I cannot move forward with this shortsighted acceptance that what we have is actually working for the rest of Eve - not in a napfest.

If getting out and having a crack at some of the wasted space is on the table, me thinks more will try. Atm, why bother?

Additionally, if massive space is too large to hold in RT, then much of the total steam-roller offense will be reduced. This brings about lots of localised, small roam, "mutual fun" engagements and brings it back to pockets of space instead of whole regions.

That's GOT to be good for Eve. Surely?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Borisk Zeltsh
Alcohlics Anonymous
#68 - 2012-09-24 22:26:56 UTC
Sov 0.0 is a dump left there years ago cant eee myself going bck dont want to be a sheep in someones field
npc 0.0 is cool plenty small scall pvp also dont have to be a sheep to dock

only resone i go 0.0 is to get sec stat back and there are alot more that think like this it has nothing to do with recorses it has more to do with we dont wana be a sheep and join a blob

losec best sec

fu#k 0.0
Doddy
Excidium.
#69 - 2012-09-24 22:30:04 UTC
CCP killed eve when they introduced the jump drive, people are just really really slow in noticing.
Aareya
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#70 - 2012-09-24 22:52:25 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
The key point is that if you cannot defend it all in REAL TIME then you can't have it all.


EVE is a game played by people around the world, by various cultures, in different time zones. While some alliances are large enough to have a 24x7 presence, many alliances do not. How does this idea of "real life defense required" apply to players from different cultures who may be active in some timezones and not in others?

If the time of the attack is decided by the attacker and the defender must be available, in real time, to defend, this essentially "nerfs" cultural based alliances from holding sov in nullsec.

Twitter:   @AareyaEVE
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#71 - 2012-09-24 23:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Aareya wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
The key point is that if you cannot defend it all in REAL TIME then you can't have it all.


EVE is a game played by people around the world, by various cultures, in different time zones. While some alliances are large enough to have a 24x7 presence, many alliances do not. How does this idea of "real life defense required" apply to players from different cultures who may be active in some timezones and not in others?

If the time of the attack is decided by the attacker and the defender must be available, in real time, to defend, this essentially "nerfs" cultural based alliances from holding sov in nullsec.


This is a really good point and this is why I'm keen on these types of questions.

Atm, the TZ defense is only how how good your stront guy is. You will still have to field a fleet at some point to clear the agggressors. Size wins regardless and eventually TZ becomes a moot point. A major problem with current sov.

Perhaps (as part of the POS reworks for example) the ability to shut down production on a tower and have it maxed (to fleet level?) defense during your off-TZ is a possibility. If you're off, proudction is off. No more AFK isk machines - a good thing?

ofc, for this to be an option, a serious POS defense buff is required. Conversely, having the tower VERY vulnerable during production is also required.

You offline defense in your POS for production when you are ON. This places you, the CEO, in charge of guns or butter. If an attack is imminent, you need to decide.

Do you let the fleet handle POS defense and keep producing or do you stop production and use everything for defense (and make no coin)?

(currently, half the POS's dont even bother with guns and max out production.Tower only stops being a isk machine when it goes into reo. Make the tower VERY veulnerable during production and watch what happens to POS defense!!)

If this were to be, even the largest of alliances is going to need to defend every high-value POS with a fleet purely to keep the production going. They won't be able to defend them all so reduction in holdings is inevitable in order to realise the highest value of their estate.

Would this work? Dunno. These are thoughts to consider.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#72 - 2012-09-25 00:20:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
A couple of afterthoughts to my above.

With the above scenario, small harrasment POS's make small to medium sized raids into large sov space a very real possibility and a tangible threat.

If a "bad-boy" POS is able to mount it's own (fleet sized) defense then a solid force is going to be needed to remove the POS. The defending force will also need to defend their production towers with a fleet during this time OR offline them while the threat exists.

Any small/medium harrassment force still has to juggle whether losing their gear (eventually) is worth the fun factor and the defending force also needs to decide whether the removal is worth the effort.

The intent by harassing forces is to raid and harass, not produce. I'm fine with this. Again the largest sovs are going to have to WORK to keep their stuff producing and their size WILL need to be considered.

(In fairness, the POS defense gear needs to be valued highly enough to prevent 2-bit moron corps from just being a danged nuisance.)

From an offensive capability POV, even the largest of alliances will still need to have an RT defensive force capable of holding every new asset after an offensive op IN ADDITION to requiring RT defense of infrastructure that is in production in their original territory.

(Yes they could still field a 100% offensive capability but they'll have to turn off their production to do so and still need to defend BOTH the new asset and exisitng assets upon completion of the op.)

The mind boggles at the possibilites and I'm positive some more good (and bad) points can be pulled from this.

TL;DR: Remove timers and make towers VERY vulnerable during production but VERY strong on defense.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-09-25 00:53:01 UTC
Doddy wrote:
CCP killed eve when they introduced the jump drive, people are just really really slow in noticing.

I agree. How is it that capital ships (the biggest ships in the game) are able to travel across the galaxy faster than an interceptor? Seriously. No troll or exaggeration. Capital ships can move from one extreme side of the galaxy to the other extreme side in 15 minutes or less. This of course is provided a cyno chain is ready to go, but my point stands.

The entire galaxy.

In 15 minutes.

Anyone else find this absurd??
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2012-09-25 00:57:19 UTC
What I really see in the OP is not an critique of the sov system. What I see is a first hand account of how CCP has left sov null to rot on the vine. Those systems are empty because there is nothing to do there and only minimal things that can be done to improve it. The current owners have little use for it, and any new owners will also find little use for it. Upgrades cost isk and take effort to bring up or keep up. Player made outposts are expensive and absolute crap compared to npc outposts. Half the factory and research slots and the worst base refine rates. 20bil isk for these outposts, and they don't even buy 1 quarter of the services the rest of Eve gets for free.

And don't blow off sov bills and logistics costs. They are not inconsequential and are not any easier if you are smaller. Being larger allows you to take advantages of economies of scale and enough players to spread the boring work around.

Keep in mind, pretty much every major nullsec entity relies on a heavy amount of metagaming or using strategies that are not built into Eve mechanics to pay the bills and fund fleet operations. Renting, permitting and cartel systems all have to be built and maintained and accounted out of game. Some eschew the sov system, and just hold assets in space they don't own. But pretty much no one takes, holds and defends space on ratting and refinery taxes.

If you think you can just anchor a TCU in one of those unused system and have enough isk rolling in to keep the lights on in your space hermit kingdom, you are in for a shock.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2012-09-25 01:09:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Marlona Sky wrote:
Doddy wrote:
CCP killed eve when they introduced the jump drive, people are just really really slow in noticing.

I agree. How is it that capital ships (the biggest ships in the game) are able to travel across the galaxy faster than an interceptor? Seriously. No troll or exaggeration. Capital ships can move from one extreme side of the galaxy to the other extreme side in 15 minutes or less. This of course is provided a cyno chain is ready to go, but my point stands.

The entire galaxy.

In 15 minutes.

Anyone else find this absurd??

It is a stupid concept tbh but it doesn't have anything to do with why people aren't living in truly worthless 0.0 systems.
Making it so the 4 belt, -0.01 truesec corridor system in a region with no valuable moons now takes 30 jumps to get to highsec isn't gonna add to its appeal to small alliances.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2012-09-25 01:12:22 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Doddy wrote:
CCP killed eve when they introduced the jump drive, people are just really really slow in noticing.

I agree. How is it that capital ships (the biggest ships in the game) are able to travel across the galaxy faster than an interceptor? Seriously. No troll or exaggeration. Capital ships can move from one extreme side of the galaxy to the other extreme side in 15 minutes or less. This of course is provided a cyno chain is ready to go, but my point stands.

The entire galaxy.

In 15 minutes.

Anyone else find this absurd??



How? You kind of answered it yourself. Because they are the biggest (and most expensive and skill intensive) ships in the game, and to do it requires an established network of cyno generators and stable of cyno ships.

The degree to which capital ships have proliferated makes this seem everyday and trivial. But less than 1% of Eve's population will ever be in a position to both pilot a cap ship AND have access to an alliance funded trans-galactic cyno chain.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-09-25 01:21:35 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Doddy wrote:
CCP killed eve when they introduced the jump drive, people are just really really slow in noticing.

I agree. How is it that capital ships (the biggest ships in the game) are able to travel across the galaxy faster than an interceptor? Seriously. No troll or exaggeration. Capital ships can move from one extreme side of the galaxy to the other extreme side in 15 minutes or less. This of course is provided a cyno chain is ready to go, but my point stands.

The entire galaxy.

In 15 minutes.

Anyone else find this absurd??

It is a stupid concept tbh but it doesn't have anything to do with why people aren't living in truly worthless 0.0 systems.
Making it so the 4 belt, -0.01 truesec corridor system in a region with no valuable moons now takes 30 jumps to get to highsec isn't gonna add to its appeal to small alliances.

It doesn't?! Ahahahahaha!!!

Nice troll. Anyways, as I have always said, power projection (which is what jump drives enable) is one of several problems in null. In no way can anyone point to one single thing and say that if it was to change all would be fixed.

Oh man. You are amusing for sure. Big smile
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#78 - 2012-09-25 01:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
What I really see in the OP is not an critique of the sov system. What I see is a first hand account of how CCP has left sov null to rot on the vine. Those systems are empty because there is nothing to do there and only minimal things that can be done to improve it. The current owners have little use for it, and any new owners will also find little use for it. Upgrades cost isk and take effort to bring up or keep up. Player made outposts are expensive and absolute crap compared to npc outposts. Half the factory and research slots and the worst base refine rates. 20bil isk for these outposts, and they don't even buy 1 quarter of the services the rest of Eve gets for free.

And don't blow off sov bills and logistics costs. They are not inconsequential and are not any easier if you are smaller. Being larger allows you to take advantages of economies of scale and enough players to spread the boring work around.

Keep in mind, pretty much every major nullsec entity relies on a heavy amount of metagaming or using strategies that are not built into Eve mechanics to pay the bills and fund fleet operations. Renting, permitting and cartel systems all have to be built and maintained and accounted out of game. Some eschew the sov system, and just hold assets in space they don't own. But pretty much no one takes, holds and defends space on ratting and refinery taxes.

If you think you can just anchor a TCU in one of those unused system and have enough isk rolling in to keep the lights on in your space hermit kingdom, you are in for a shock.

And you're right. Having said that, running out of a staging POS is NOT expensive. But I can't.

But maybe I don't even want "sov".

Maybe I would be happy with a single POS so I can just do rats, belts, plexes. For some this is good coin.

Maybe I just wanna make you EARN your iskies. Maybe I just want a staging POS to harrass and give YOU a hard time. Maybe I just want to make your production of those massive iskies TENUOUS...

Isn't that the biggest beef in the game? Minerman got it easy. Incursionman got it easy. FWman got it easy.

What if YOU have to choose whether to produce in your POS and defend it with a defesne fleet or whether you simply max-defend your POS and make NO production WHILE you are fielding 100% of your forces on offense.

My idea is guns or butter.

Atm it's butter, butter butter, butter butter, butter. AFK defense. AFK isk generation. The timer is the fault here.

Under my idea, a small to medium force could make you think VERY seriously about your expansion abilities and the amount of space you own. While you play at being strategically superior space-Gods, I can apply tactical harrassment and slow you down.

Proof of small guerilla forces able to defeat/impede very large superior forces is evident both in history AND in current world affairs.

Why? Da big boy don't got a PAUSE button!

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Samahiel Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-09-25 01:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Samahiel Sotken
Marlona Sky wrote:
Doddy wrote:
CCP killed eve when they introduced the jump drive, people are just really really slow in noticing.

I agree. How is it that capital ships (the biggest ships in the game) are able to travel across the galaxy faster than an interceptor? Seriously. No troll or exaggeration. Capital ships can move from one extreme side of the galaxy to the other extreme side in 15 minutes or less. This of course is provided a cyno chain is ready to go, but my point stands.

The entire galaxy.

In 15 minutes.

Anyone else find this absurd??


Think of it this way, and it makes perfect sense. You have to get from the Isle of Mann to Manhattan by boat, are you going to take a speed boat or an ocean liner? You need to get from Beijing to Los Angeles by plane, Cesna or 777? Larger ships almost always have higher sustained speeds and longer ranges due to fuel reserves.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2012-09-25 01:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Touval Lysander wrote:

And you're right. Having said that, running out of a staging POS is NOT expensive. But I can't.

But maybe I don't even want "sov".

Maybe I would be happy with a single POS so I can just do rats, belts, plexes. For some this is good coin.
good luck with that, without an i-hub you'd be making more money doing l4s.

Quote:
Maybe I just wanna make you EARN your iskies. Maybe I just want a staging POS to harrass and give YOU a hard time. Maybe I just want to make your production of those massive iskies TENUOUS...
What about your proposal of making it possible to wipe out a lone guy's POS within 15 minutes while he's at work or asleep and destroying all his stored loot and ships is 'tenuous' on the big alliance's part exactly? Is it when you logs on to find everything you've built destroyed without getting to fight for it that's tenuous on our part, or the part when he has to go to highsec to buy a hauler, another POS and fuel, then slowboat it 30 jumps there and back? Is that's what going to sweat the big alliances? How many other NPC corp alts do you expect to be down with this exactly?