EVE General Discussion

See, I agree and disagree with point 2.


It takes a lot of people, actively playing, to make manufacturing work in null.

I don't know what it's like for a TEST, HBC, or -A- trade hub.
I only manufacture and sell; on two accounts that's all I do.

*Manufacturing is cheaper for me than in high sec.

*The majority of my materials are cheaper than in high sec.

*The things I make sell for more then in high sec.

But there are limits.

*Some materials I need to import. I think it should be this way.

*I sell lower quantities. That's fine with me as well. We're talking about 10k vs potentially hundreds of thousands. If someone wants to produce something and sell it at a much smaller profit margin, but sell 100 a day instead of 10 then they should be in a high sec trade hub.

*High sec manufacturers apparently end up about as smart as a down a child. I don't want to end up mentally ********; unable to do basic math.



I don't even know how to do research and invention in high sec. I know I don't worry about rep standing, or running missions to do anything. I make a few hundred million isk a day, and growing, off the things I build and sell in VFK.

A small corp or alliance can not afford a VFK like system. Didn't CCP state that VFK was the 4th largest trade hub in the game? It takes a large number of players to build a trade network large enough to support an industrial base. You can not make it possible to support building and selling in null without a large number of players. It requires a large level of income for the corp to do that, and a small corp or alliance can't achieve that level of income.

Unless the only thing you want to do is have a place to work out of in null for the sole purpose of PvP, it doen't benefit you to hold sov. Then, when all you want to do is PvP non stop from a base in sov. you're going to be hard pressed to hold onto that space without working with a much larger group.


This is empire building, not guild housing.

I have between 0 and 1000 install/ 500 ph production costs, and there's a LOT of them. High sec cost me more than that. People can make a killing selling T1 BPO's in VFK (hint, hint).

I have like a billion invested in buy orders in VFK, with several million in sale orders, and I'm not naive enough to think that that's a lot for a goon. I could go into jita, spend a hundred million, and turn it around much faster; that's pretty obvious, and expected when dealing with 10x the number of people that I have access to in VFK.

Whether or not the guys buying my stuff are doing there PvE around VFK I don't know, but I know a lot of guys in goon space are doing PvE.

I don't know what it costs our finanical guys to build and run VFK, but I'm assuming it's a lot.

I'm clueless on some things though.
Where are the agents to do stuff like lvl 4's and 5's in null?

What do PvE guys run? How much do you make running the PvE content in null compared to high sec? Do guys in null space run agent missions? Is ratting in null better than low; is it feasible to rat?

If high sec PvE is easier and more profitable then why would anyone come to null to do it? I know that there is PvE in null because people are buying my stuff, but where are they doing it and why? If a system is empty because people aren't doing any PvE , why?

PvE needs to exist in every part of the universe, and it's rewards need to be in line with the amount of risk in that part of the universe. PvE should be harder and more profitable in null, easier and less profitable in high. The most provitable PvE should be in the most dangerous parts of EVE; that is were there is no concord to protect you, and other players are free to shoot you with no penalty.



Null sec should have easy access to mission agents that pay considerably more then high sec lvl 4's.
CCP should make a new mission type that is only accessed in high sec, pays more then any other mission in high sec, gates high sec players into null sec systems that can be scanned down by players in null space, and have multiple null sec entry points with low traffic systems having a higher probability of containing an access point. The isk payout for this should be based on NPC bounty, with a bonus for the mission runner.

This is why you don't let your children play with plastic bags, guys.

You can find them in npc nullsec. Near us there are Guristas in Venal and SoE and Mordu's in Pure Blind.

They do pay better than highsec, but only in terms of isk and LP payout. As a mission runner, your end payout comes when you cash in the LP for special items and then sell those on the open market. And this is where the nullsec mission runner gets a kick in the nuts, because most LP stores have the same sets of books and basic implants, and the items that are unique to the nullsec npc factions aren't all that great. If you want to be competitive with highsec missions, you are stuck buying faction ship bpc's and that is about it. SoE offers their faction probes, which sell well, but Mordu's only has faction ECM modules, which don't sell well. Also, LP store pirate ammo is across the board worse than empire faction ammo, and thanks to faction warfare, it costs more per unit than empire faction ammo.

So over all, nullsec missions are limited to getting payed in a few in-demand faction ship bpc's and implant sets. And it is quite risky when you get into L4s, because the larger and well fit ships you need to run those are easy and compelling targets.


I have a character that I run Guristas and SoE missions on when the monotony of anomaly ratting gets to me. And I only run them in the most disposable ships I can get away with due to the risk, which also means I'm limited to blitzing L3s. And the only reason it pays well at all (on par with anomaly ratting in a Drake for items worth 2000isk/LP) is because I have another character who can fly covops and blockade runners and has access to the best trade hub in all of nullsec and jump freighter service to Jita.

I've heard the idea tossed around before to let nullsec alliances get agents in their stations as a form of upgrade. While the actual missions are often uninspiring, they do have the benefit of being infinitely available. Ratting is limited to so many rats in the belts and so many anomalies per system, but you never have to wait to run a mission.

That's very infromative.

Sounds like systems are empty because players are, for the most part, being funnelled into specific systems.


The OP on the other hand really isn't interested in why a system isn't being used, he jest keeps blathering on about why should goons be able to hold more space than a smaller alliance, and that CCP should do something to make it so that smaller alliances can compete will goons.

He's just one of the many incopetent's who think that CCP should bring things more in line with ability because they aren't smart enough to figure it out on their own. Even when they're told exactly how to.

It's simple. All it has to do is do away with the current "save the system in the final timer and reset all attacker progress" mechanic, which basically means you can easily (even if it means moving about a bit) defend multiple fronts by outblobbing one system at a time.

Which Goons can easily overcome with the blob to maintain attacker progress. It's unstoppable. Steamroller = "I win". So yes. Good point.


We're still at the blob as the only counter for the invadee. Steamroller still = "I win".

How would this benefit other alliances that cannot "outblob". Way I see it that multiplies the problem for the guy getting smashed.

Have I read this wrong?

Within the context that I have no desire to invade YOU (I can't because of size and that's a given and not disputed)

I'm looking at ways to hurt you while you invade me to make your invasion more painful. No less and no more. Being able to deploy a tactical force to put pain behind enemy lines is for mine, something that might make invasion a much more painful process.

And it's absolutely in context.

I said >> Where is everybody?
The answer >> Deployed

Problem: You have no need to remain on the defensive during that deployment. Period.

And a proper sov system would do that, without completely ******* over the rest of the game (which your ideas would've).


Yes. Because of the sov system.

"well goons can overcome this easily!" "so you're not saying it would be a nerf to goons?" "STOP THINKING EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU!!!!!!!"

Sigh. Really, now.

Pretty much. You can see this same exact emptiness by going to nearby npc sov areas. Not being technically owned by any alliance, the OP could get some friends, drop a staging POS at a valueless moon and live there. There are rats, and sometimes you find agents sitting at the gates. The ore is terrible since you can make more mining scordite in highsec with concord protection and easy station access. PI can be good if you have the right planets, but unless you put up your own customs office you pay a 17.5% tax rate. And that is about it.

But if you wanted to live out of a POS with your friends, you could do better in a wormhole.




And the funniest part about this is, we are probably the worst example of a group that has gobbled up more space than it needs. I would not be surprised if GSF had the highest rate of members per sov system (not counting iceberg alliances), and I think the fact the VFK is the biggest trade hub in nullsec demonstrates just how much we do stuff in our space.