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Wasted space
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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2012-09-26 21:39:57 UTC
So what about everything else that is nullsec? Or do you believe that nullsec is nothing but POS bashing? Do you think nullsec space is won or lost over POSes?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#182 - 2012-09-26 21:53:05 UTC
Ocih wrote:
feel free to go back and drop a few hundred SBU's.
Let us know how that works out.

SBU's aren't even in the equation. In fact, with what I'm suggesting, it MAY (and I emphasise MAY) have a cause and effect on sov that could make many SBU ops irrelevant.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#183 - 2012-09-26 21:56:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Lord Zim wrote:
So what about everything else that is nullsec? Or do you believe that nullsec is nothing but POS bashing? Do you think nullsec space is won or lost over POSes?

Not entirely no but it IS a big part of it (and a lot of motivation certianly for smaller alliances).

How many wars are fought over T-moons (and perhaps CSA's)?

(another benefit perhaps - CSA's also become vulnerable - cap ship deproliferation??)

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2012-09-26 22:06:37 UTC
Ask the guys in the south how many wars are fought over technetium. And no, nullsec space isn't won or lost through shooting POSes. POSes don't even enter into the equation when space is won or lost.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#185 - 2012-09-26 22:22:30 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Ask the guys in the south how many wars are fought over technetium. And no, nullsec space isn't won or lost through shooting POSes. POSes don't even enter into the equation when space is won or lost.

I hear ya but you can also argue

"Ask the guys in the north how many wars (were) fought over technetium" and bring it back around yeah?

And c'mon Zim, if you took Tech out of the equation, and given this "0.0 is empty and boring" then why is anybody even bothering to fight over it?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2012-09-26 22:59:12 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
And c'mon Zim, if you took Tech out of the equation, and given this "0.0 is empty and boring" then why is anybody even bothering to fight over it?

To **** in someone's cheerios? Old grudges? Because we can? Because it's fun watching someone else's space pixels blow up? Because if we didn't, we might as well unsub and play X3 or other space strategy/tactical games?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#187 - 2012-09-26 23:12:43 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
And c'mon Zim, if you took Tech out of the equation, and given this "0.0 is empty and boring" then why is anybody even bothering to fight over it?

To **** in someone's cheerios? Old grudges? Because we can? Because it's fun watching someone else's space pixels blow up? Because if we didn't, we might as well unsub and play X3 or other space strategy/tactical games?

Hello.

And making POS's RT vulnerable "To **** in someone's cheerios" is a bad thing?

This has been one of key points all along. To "allow" smaller forces to be able to do this to the big guys is in my mind a highly motivating factor to laxative up and go on a stroll through 0.0.

At the moment it's simply not possible because the hurt I can produce is temporary and no more than a nuisance because you have unlimited boxes of Cheerios.

But if I can make your Cheerio's awful to eat every day you are going to shift your bowl or at the very least, stand over your bowl with a shotgun so you can eat in peace?

What it actually does to sov in reality is debatable and I accept that but I want the opportunity to squat on your Cheerios as easily as you can squat over mine. That isn't happening and isn't likely to.

It needs to change.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2012-09-26 23:27:03 UTC
Yes, yes, you'll kill off 200 POSes every day and we won't be able to do anything to stop you. Blah blah blah. Talk is cheap.

Why don't you give us a demonstration by reinforcing the towers we have now? It'd halt production as well, and it would be just as frustrating for you as if you were to come to shoot our towers under your system, only to have someone move the POS into reinforced mode and take it out of reinforcement mode again when you've left.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2012-09-26 23:38:45 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:

And making POS's RT vulnerable "To **** in someone's cheerios" is a bad thing?



Again, you are thinking too small. You need more perspective.

The whole moon goo as a strategic asset is only a big thing in the north, and is largely locked up by a handful of rather powerful entities. Tearing down POSes quickly will just be an annoyance to alliances that make there isk off renters and mandatory mining ops.

And you are forgetting that if you make POSes vulnerable to small roaming gangs, you make them tissue paper to the existing capital fleets, and also highsec freighter ganking fleets with a wardec.

Now, I'm all for tears and ruining people's day, but I also know a game ruining mechanic when I see it. This would be a POSageddon, and it would have disastrous effects on many other parts of the Eve economy.

But hey, I'm spacerich and have the resources to get spacericher off this dumb idea, so bring it on.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2012-09-26 23:41:08 UTC
I'm not going to go back and read the rest of this terrible, terrible thread again, but did he ever mention how many of which ships were used to take down what sort of POS in how short a time?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2012-09-26 23:48:36 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
I'm not going to go back and read the rest of this terrible, terrible thread again, but did he ever mention how many of which ships were used to take down what sort of POS in how short a time?


No. He's just hung up on the reinforcement timer.

I imagine that if he gets his way, and heads out to solo a tower in his Hurricane, he'll next be complaining that downtime gets in the way of letting him down a POS in "real time".
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#192 - 2012-09-27 00:05:15 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
I'm not going to go back and read the rest of this terrible, terrible thread again, but did he ever mention how many of which ships were used to take down what sort of POS in how short a time?


No. He's just hung up on the reinforcement timer.

I imagine that if he gets his way, and heads out to solo a tower in his Hurricane, he'll next be complaining that downtime gets in the way of letting him down a POS in "real time".

Actually no I haven't put numbers on anything but sure as hell it was never going to be a cane and sure as hell it was never going to be solo.

You've overlooked the one absolute in that a POS defense must be as good as "serious fleet size". So I'd expect if I need to pop your tower I need to bring much bigger than "serious fleet size" and lots of logi.

It can't be easy - and I've said this - it's NOT about being able to kill the POS. I don't have to.

It's about stopping you producing if you want to leave your tower off "defense" mode.

So a reasonable size cap fleet (eg: couple of dreads/triage) should be able to take it down in - I dunno, 1/2 hour or so.

Either way, the force required to take down a POS - in PRODUCTION - should be roughly equal to how fast a defense fleet could deploy - with the result being either guaranteed suicide if I'm not quite big enough (we don't want 2 bit moron corps able to do this) - or just enough for me to kill and escape/log etc.

If we know how long it takes a *local* defense fleet to form up then pick an offensive fleet size and enough dps to do the kill (in roughly that time) and it's probably a fair balance.

Sure. I can bring everyman and his dog and be assured of the POS kill but that's no different to current blueball on a timer so I can't see any adverse effect here.

Numbers are all up for grabs. I'm just throwing it out there.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2012-09-27 00:22:47 UTC
You keep saying you that halting production is your biggest goal, but you can do that right now. That mechanic already exist, because so long as a tower is in reinforce it won't produce anything.

If you got some friends in dreads, you can do this right now by just running around reinforcing random POSes over and over until they give up and unanchor or refit it into a dickstar.


The only new mechanic in your idea is that reinforce has to be manually set, and if it isn't then that same fleet could just continue through the shields till the tower is destroyed.


So the only new thing you are adding is the ability to destroy a tower in 1 sitting.

And since the only people who can get a defense fleet in a couple hours any time of day are the big nullsec power blocs, it means only they will get to have and use POSes and everyone else will either have to keep them reinforced most of the day or just give up using them.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#194 - 2012-09-27 01:27:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

So the only new thing you are adding is the ability to destroy a tower in 1 sitting.

And I'll say it AGAIN.

Go back to my OP. I asked WHY the space was empty.

The answer was "They're on ops".....

It's THIS point I'm addressing. You're on ops and you DON'T NEED TO DEFEND ANYTHING.

Invasion is zero RT risk with a guaranteed outcome for the biggest blue ball - PRE and POST invasion.

Now I'm going to drop RL examples in to qualify my comments.

1) Let's say the US decides to invade Iran. They gonna have a BIG problem. Come back and tell me how the toughest, meanest bad-ass military in the world has to seriously think twice taking on a smaller opponent?

2) While you're at it. Look up "Vietnam" - tell me how we lost?

3) Look up Afghanistan - tell me why are we still there after 11 years?

4) While you're googling all this, look up one of the primary reasons how the Roman Empire collapsed.

Perhaps you'll see why I'm bitching about sov grabs. It's unrealistic and totally obvious what the result will eventually be because there is NO COUNTER - NO DETERENT - NO CONSEQUENCE.

In RL there are many ways to counter YOUR DESIRE TO INVADE and it's proven time and time again to be an effective military strategy.

The whole point is to make INVASION COUNT. A small counter force MUST be able to hurt you in RT to PREVENT you invading.

If it's vulnerable POS bashes fine, bring it. If not, WHAT???

>> It's NOT to take your sov - it's to create an effective deterrent to invading mine. <<

THAT is the point to be resolved.

TL;DR - we need rubber tyres on the steam roller and we need road spikes. What do the spikes need to be made of?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#195 - 2012-09-27 01:30:23 UTC
If there's moongoo there being harvested by alts then it's not wasted.

Even if you don't see people there, it's making us money on an alliance level.

So it's not really wasted at all. You just look at it that way is all.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#196 - 2012-09-27 01:34:17 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
If there's moongoo there being harvested by alts then it's not wasted.

Even if you don't see people there, it's making us money on an alliance level.

So it's not really wasted at all. You just look at it that way is all.

Yep. I know that. Now gimme a way to make you PROTECT that production while you are somewhere else.

atm, DT on halting production is a flat, n hours(stront).

Because it's too easy to drop back, kill and rep.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2012-09-27 01:39:26 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
The answer was "They're on ops".....

I'm not on ops, yet I'm active. I'm active in hisec, not in nullsec. **** with anything in our space, a ping will go out, and we'll **** your **** up.

Touval Lysander wrote:
Invasion is zero RT risk with a guaranteed outcome for the biggest blue ball - PRE and POST invasion.

You're being needlessly myopic. The problem with invading someone else isn't because we don't have to defend POSes, it's that we don't have to defend any system until the very final timer. POSes are much better in this regard, since we can't wait almost a week to defend it the second time, and yet you're just focusing on POSes.

Touval Lysander wrote:
>> It's NOT to take your sov - it's to create an effective deterrent to invading mine. <<

THAT is the point to be resolved.

I'm pretty sure that in a war we've got absolutely no problems with spending a week grinding your entire space unopposed because you're too busy shooting our POSes to defend your space in this weird misconception that in a war where I'm invading someone, I'll care more about something which'll take at most a day to take back, as opposed to what'll take a minimum of a week to take in the first place (and that's if it's completely unopposed)

It's almost as if you've never actually been in a nullsec war.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#198 - 2012-09-27 01:42:14 UTC
So is thread about 0.0 movement or moon goo or? I'm confused.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#199 - 2012-09-27 01:44:11 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
So is thread about 0.0 movement or moon goo or? I'm confused.

If you're not seeing it best be moving along. Nothing to see here.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#200 - 2012-09-27 01:51:21 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
The answer was "They're on ops".....

I'm not on ops, yet I'm active. I'm active in hisec, not in nullsec. **** with anything in our space, a ping will go out, and we'll **** your **** up.

Touval Lysander wrote:
Invasion is zero RT risk with a guaranteed outcome for the biggest blue ball - PRE and POST invasion.

You're being needlessly myopic. The problem with invading someone else isn't because we don't have to defend POSes, it's that we don't have to defend any system until the very final timer. POSes are much better in this regard, since we can't wait almost a week to defend it the second time, and yet you're just focusing on POSes.

Touval Lysander wrote:
>> It's NOT to take your sov - it's to create an effective deterrent to invading mine. <<

THAT is the point to be resolved.

I'm pretty sure that in a war we've got absolutely no problems with spending a week grinding your entire space unopposed because you're too busy shooting our POSes to defend your space in this weird misconception that in a war where I'm invading someone, I'll care more about something which'll take at most a day to take back, as opposed to what'll take a minimum of a week to take in the first place (and that's if it's completely unopposed)

It's almost as if you've never actually been in a nullsec war.

On the first point. If you can get back in time. The timing would need to be worked out to make it touch-n-go for both parties.

On the second. K. Good point. So pull timers off everything. wth.... Make it REAL. (there was talk of destructible stations once - is it still on the cards?)

On the 3rd. I accept this. tbh, I'm banking on tedium as a factor as well. For GSF & friends, TZ is not really an issue either so it's hard to find "the bit" that will work.

As long as we can both accept that the whole concept and execution of 0.0 sov wars exist under a predisposed outcome atm.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."