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CONCORD, lowsec, and the hunted
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Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-09-26 12:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Pipa Porto wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
I agree that it would be a lit more interesting if you could escape concord but then what would be the punishment for your crimes? Hit: sec status hits arn't the answer.

This could only work if there was a long term punishment e.g. SP hit or prison.


What's with people and the godawful SP Loss and Prison proposals?

Hint: Neither of them produce anything like good gameplay for anyone.


Because it's the only logical punishment and it actually soounds more interesting that magical laser beams coming from nowhere and destroying your ship IMO.


Why isn't "your ship gets blown up" a logical punishment for blowing up someone else's ship?

Besides that, who care's about logic? We fly spaceships in space which has the consistency of Soup. This is a Game, so Logic takes a back seat to Good Gameplay. How do either of your proposals represent Good Gameplay?

One hits people with a metagame punishment for legitimate in game activites. The other stops people from playing the game. Both significantly reward the use of 51d Hero alts.


1. Because it doesn't take long to train a character to gank someone with a relatively inexpensive ship and then throw that char away or grind sec stat killing rats.
2. Logic is fun and good gameplay to me. We are roleplaying immortal demigods and in a society like this, imprisonment is the only real punishment. The skill point thing makes sense because SP is the most important thing in the game.
3. Additional game play could be added to support these features, e.g. prison could involve avatar gameplay or it could be an entire solar system that was the prison where criminals are forced into thunder dome style combat for the amusement of the other capsuleers in eve, watching on the screens in their CQ.

At the end of the day, if you can't do the time don't do the crime. This is how society works.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-09-26 13:15:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiro Ceffoe
I like some of the ideas in this thread, I think they need a lot of work but still...

I'm pretty new and I've never left High security space, but I know there is a minimum security rating you need to get into high sec without been shot on sight -5.0 I believe (but if thats wrong then just replace with whatever is right)

So lets say that evading Concord does become possible but the punishment would be instant -5.0 security status, meaning once the crime is commited you can only go to low sec and stay there until you redeem yourselves in the eyes of the law using the usual means (maybe even implement a few Concord agents around low-sec to suppliment this end, like community service agents or something.

furthermore to do this would require an unlicensed spacecraft (you know, one that doesn't have an almost criminal amount of bugs and tracking devices attached) possibly limited by CCP and only available in contracts, or manufacturable by players but require resources that are only available from easily (CCP) controlled methods, this will help to limit abuse of the mechanic. Also flying an unlicensed ship could mean open season against you for any pod pilots with a positive security rating (theres no gaurantee you would even get to your target)

Further to that, modules would be required on said ships thereby nerfing your ability as a combat ship so you couldnt just get an unlicensed battleship rig it with full rails and go to town, modules like warp drive maskers (low slot items) signature radius neutralizers (mid slot items) and lets say for the sake of it certain guns had to be used (low velocity untraceable round railguns) this would further allow CCP to control how possible and profitable it is to use this equipment. The more of these modules used the more time you have to escape Concord and subsequently the more incapable your ship becomes at doing ordinary things.

The potential here is interesting not only does it revitalise high sec, it adds new layers to all criminal careers, adds new options to manufacturing and lays the foundation for a black market in 0.0 or low sec that CCP can control (to a degree)

Edit:

I would also like to add that the required modules and subsequently the skills you would require would prevent too much abuse by alts, as you would have to have a highly trained character in order to use these ships/modules.

Also warping to zero would be no longer possible with the low slot module (warp drive masker) because it now incurs a 15km deviation to warp bubble collapse to counteract it's +15 seconds to concord intervention multiplier meaning you would have to pre-plan your escape route to low-sec based on how many police are stationed on the gates you want to use, obviously higher sec means more police means more tank required means more expensive ship and making the chance of you succesfully getting from 1.0 to 0.4 almost an impossibility but 0.5 to 0.4 much more likely, at least this way the differing ratings of high sec systems matter much more too. All this while everyone in space is gunning for you... I dunno about you but that sure sounds like fun to me.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#83 - 2012-09-26 15:58:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Idea: 150km zone of weapon deactivation around system gates and bases in all systems in hi sec. Why? Do you like spawn killers? If you do, just ignore this post.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Pipa Porto
#84 - 2012-09-26 22:27:24 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
1. Because it doesn't take long to train a character to gank someone with a relatively inexpensive ship and then throw that char away or grind sec stat killing rats.
2. Logic is fun and good gameplay to me. We are roleplaying immortal demigods and in a society like this, imprisonment is the only real punishment. The skill point thing makes sense because SP is the most important thing in the game.
3. Additional game play could be added to support these features, e.g. prison could involve avatar gameplay or it could be an entire solar system that was the prison where criminals are forced into thunder dome style combat for the amusement of the other capsuleers in eve, watching on the screens in their CQ.

At the end of the day, if you can't do the time don't do the crime. This is how society works.


And in EVE, the punishment for blowing up someone's ship is that your own ship gets blown up. An eye for an eye. Logical. Good Gameplay (it neither rewards disposable alts nor stops people from playing the game).

Your proposals reward the use of 51d heroes, and stops people from playing the game (say, I don't like prison, welp, guess its time to let this sub lapse until it's out). Neither are examples of good gameplay.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#85 - 2012-09-26 22:35:11 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
1. Because it doesn't take long to train a character to gank someone with a relatively inexpensive ship and then throw that char away or grind sec stat killing rats.
2. Logic is fun and good gameplay to me. We are roleplaying immortal demigods and in a society like this, imprisonment is the only real punishment. The skill point thing makes sense because SP is the most important thing in the game.
3. Additional game play could be added to support these features, e.g. prison could involve avatar gameplay or it could be an entire solar system that was the prison where criminals are forced into thunder dome style combat for the amusement of the other capsuleers in eve, watching on the screens in their CQ.

At the end of the day, if you can't do the time don't do the crime. This is how society works.


And in EVE, the punishment for blowing up someone's ship is that your own ship gets blown up. An eye for an eye. Logical. Good Gameplay (it neither rewards disposable alts nor stops people from playing the game).

Your proposals reward the use of 51d heroes, and stops people from playing the game (say, I don't like prison, welp, guess its time to let this sub lapse until it's out). Neither are examples of good gameplay.



I like how people assume that every suicide ganker is a disposable alt.
And yes, those ideas are awful.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-09-26 22:36:51 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Idea: 150km zone of weapon deactivation around system gates and bases in all systems in hi sec. Why? Do you like spawn killers? If you do, just ignore this post.


What a great idea! Make highsec even easier than it already is.... Umm, no.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Pipa Porto
#87 - 2012-09-26 22:56:43 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Idea: 150km zone of weapon deactivation around system gates and bases in all systems in hi sec. Why? Do you like spawn killers? If you do, just ignore this post.


1. Suicide Ganking and Spawn Camping aren't nearly as similar as you make them out to be.
2. How would that affect Suicide Ganking? You'd just need a good Bump ship and some patience to hit freighters.
3. Why only HS? If Gatecamps are spawn camping, and you want spawn camping gone, why only for HS?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#88 - 2012-09-26 22:57:45 UTC
Hiro Ceffoe wrote:
I like some of the ideas in this thread, I think they need a lot of work but still...

I'm pretty new and I've never left High security space, but I know there is a minimum security rating you need to get into high sec without been shot on sight -5.0 I believe (but if thats wrong then just replace with whatever is right)

So lets say that evading Concord does become possible but the punishment would be instant -5.0 security status, meaning once the crime is commited you can only go to low sec and stay there until you redeem yourselves in the eyes of the law using the usual means (maybe even implement a few Concord agents around low-sec to suppliment this end, like community service agents or something.

furthermore to do this would require an unlicensed spacecraft (you know, one that doesn't have an almost criminal amount of bugs and tracking devices attached) possibly limited by CCP and only available in contracts, or manufacturable by players but require resources that are only available from easily (CCP) controlled methods, this will help to limit abuse of the mechanic. Also flying an unlicensed ship could mean open season against you for any pod pilots with a positive security rating (theres no gaurantee you would even get to your target)

Further to that, modules would be required on said ships thereby nerfing your ability as a combat ship so you couldnt just get an unlicensed battleship rig it with full rails and go to town, modules like warp drive maskers (low slot items) signature radius neutralizers (mid slot items) and lets say for the sake of it certain guns had to be used (low velocity untraceable round railguns) this would further allow CCP to control how possible and profitable it is to use this equipment. The more of these modules used the more time you have to escape Concord and subsequently the more incapable your ship becomes at doing ordinary things.

The potential here is interesting not only does it revitalise high sec, it adds new layers to all criminal careers, adds new options to manufacturing and lays the foundation for a black market in 0.0 or low sec that CCP can control (to a degree)

Edit:

I would also like to add that the required modules and subsequently the skills you would require would prevent too much abuse by alts, as you would have to have a highly trained character in order to use these ships/modules.

Also warping to zero would be no longer possible with the low slot module (warp drive masker) because it now incurs a 15km deviation to warp bubble collapse to counteract it's +15 seconds to concord intervention multiplier meaning you would have to pre-plan your escape route to low-sec based on how many police are stationed on the gates you want to use, obviously higher sec means more police means more tank required means more expensive ship and making the chance of you succesfully getting from 1.0 to 0.4 almost an impossibility but 0.5 to 0.4 much more likely, at least this way the differing ratings of high sec systems matter much more too. All this while everyone in space is gunning for you... I dunno about you but that sure sounds like fun to me.


wat

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2012-09-27 06:39:39 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
1. Because it doesn't take long to train a character to gank someone with a relatively inexpensive ship and then throw that char away or grind sec stat killing rats.
2. Logic is fun and good gameplay to me. We are roleplaying immortal demigods and in a society like this, imprisonment is the only real punishment. The skill point thing makes sense because SP is the most important thing in the game.
3. Additional game play could be added to support these features, e.g. prison could involve avatar gameplay or it could be an entire solar system that was the prison where criminals are forced into thunder dome style combat for the amusement of the other capsuleers in eve, watching on the screens in their CQ.

At the end of the day, if you can't do the time don't do the crime. This is how society works.


And in EVE, the punishment for blowing up someone's ship is that your own ship gets blown up. An eye for an eye. Logical. Good Gameplay (it neither rewards disposable alts nor stops people from playing the game).

Your proposals reward the use of 51d heroes, and stops people from playing the game (say, I don't like prison, welp, guess its time to let this sub lapse until it's out). Neither are examples of good gameplay.



I like how people assume that every suicide ganker is a disposable alt.
And yes, those ideas are awful.


Oh great argument "dur your ideas are rubbish"... Ah well, you are interrelated to you opinion but in all honesty i don't really care. Keep ganking an CCP will keep nerfing your gameplay.

Currently, player A can gank player B in a cheaper ship and then scoop the loot that was worth more that player A's ship in the first place. Then if player A gets banned from high sec, they rat in low/null for a while and earn a boat load of isk for their trouble... If you think this is a punishment, you are a complete idiot.

An eye for an eye does no apply in eve and it is not how law enforcement works.


The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#90 - 2012-09-27 07:19:50 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Currently, player A can gank player B in a cheaper ship and then scoop the loot that was worth more that player A's ship in the first place. Then if player A gets banned from high sec, they rat in low/null for a while and earn a boat load of isk for their trouble... If you think this is a punishment, you are a complete idiot.

An eye for an eye does no apply in eve and it is not how law enforcement works.


He's right

Imagine in RL, I blow up a Rolls Royce and grab the stereo and the PoliceMan comes and blows up my Datsun 120b. After he does that I run to a church and say 15 Hail Mary's and come back to find me another Rolls Royce.

I'm laughing all the way to the bank. EZ mode.

Now suppose the PoliceMan kneecaps me and I gotta spend 6 days in a hospital. Stereo not as much fun now.

And forget "logic" I saw hereabouts. Sure. Expect that it's a logical mind employing illogical actions on logical people with an illogical penalty.

And the RL money they make in their logical lives to play an illogical game is illogical if the illogical is pronounced as a logical action simply because it's an illogical game.

There's no logic to this at all.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Pipa Porto
#91 - 2012-09-27 07:32:29 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Currently, player A can gank player B in a cheaper ship and then scoop the loot that was worth more that player A's ship in the first place. Then if player A gets banned from high sec, they rat in low/null for a while and earn a boat load of isk for their trouble... If you think this is a punishment, you are a complete idiot.

An eye for an eye does no apply in eve and it is not how law enforcement works.


He's right

Imagine in RL, I blow up a Rolls Royce and grab the stereo and the PoliceMan comes and blows up my Datsun 120b. After he does that I run to a church and say 15 Hail Mary's and come back to find me another Rolls Royce.

I'm laughing all the way to the bank. EZ mode.

Now suppose the PoliceMan kneecaps me and I gotta spend 6 days in a hospital. Stereo not as much fun now.

And forget "logic" I saw hereabouts. Sure. Expect that it's a logical mind employing illogical actions on logical people with an illogical penalty.

And the RL money they make in their logical lives to play an illogical game is illogical if the illogical is pronounced as a logical action simply because it's an illogical game.

There's no logic to this at all.


Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-09-27 07:42:29 UTC
Err I don't... I can't understand what you're... What? What?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy
Caldari State
#93 - 2012-09-27 09:44:35 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
wat


Which part of that post in particular confuses you?
Pipa Porto
#94 - 2012-09-27 10:11:37 UTC
Hiro Ceffoe wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
wat


Which part of that post in particular confuses you?


The part where you seem to think the collection of incorrect assumptions and truly terrible game mechanical ideas that fill that post in any way resemble a good idea.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-09-27 10:32:11 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Hiro Ceffoe wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
wat


Which part of that post in particular confuses you?


The part where you seem to think the collection of incorrect assumptions and truly terrible game mechanical ideas that fill that post in any way resemble a good idea.


Please highlight the incorrect assumptions and specify a reason why (in your opinion) certain ideas proposed are truly terrible.

It seems to me you have added 0 to this thread, all you seem to do is claim things cannot/should not be done, unsurprisingly thats not your call, thats CCP's decision, as a player its my intent to bring to the attention of CCP ideas which I and others like me believe would add something to the game, hereby making the game better, what is your intent?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-09-27 11:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Hiro Ceffoe wrote:

Please highlight the incorrect assumptions and specify a reason why (in your opinion) certain ideas proposed are truly terrible.

He can't because he has nothing interesting to say or he can't formulate a good argument so he just criticize... I believe he is what is commonly referred to as a troll.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-09-27 11:33:46 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
He can't because he has nothing interesting to say or he can't formulate a good argument so he just criticize... I believe he is what is commonly referred to as a troll.


such was my conclusion, I was just playing along to bump the thread :p
Shawnm339
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2012-09-27 12:13:27 UTC
In real life criminals evade the police even with their tyre poppers and helicopters with thermal imaging, surely this escape in Eve should also be possible?
Pipa Porto
#99 - 2012-09-27 19:36:00 UTC
Hiro Ceffoe wrote:
Please highlight the incorrect assumptions and specify a reason why (in your opinion) certain ideas proposed are truly terrible.

It seems to me you have added 0 to this thread, all you seem to do is claim things cannot/should not be done, unsurprisingly thats not your call, thats CCP's decision, as a player its my intent to bring to the attention of CCP ideas which I and others like me believe would add something to the game, hereby making the game better, what is your intent?


So you're saying "shut up because you disagree with me"? Have I asked you not to post your terrible ideas? Why is "don't try to fix the working clock" not a valid opinion?

Hiro Ceffoe wrote:
I like some of the ideas in this thread, I think they need a lot of work but still...

I'm pretty new and I've never left High security space, but I know there is a minimum security rating you need to get into high sec without been shot on sight -5.0 I believe (but if thats wrong then just replace with whatever is right)

So lets say that evading Concord does become possible but the punishment would be instant -5.0 security status, meaning once the crime is commited you can only go to low sec and stay there until you redeem yourselves in the eyes of the law using the usual means (maybe even implement a few Concord agents around low-sec to suppliment this end, like community service agents or something.

furthermore to do this would require an unlicensed spacecraft (you know, one that doesn't have an almost criminal amount of bugs and tracking devices attached) possibly limited by CCP and only available in contracts, or manufacturable by players but require resources that are only available from easily (CCP) controlled methods, this will help to limit abuse of the mechanic. Also flying an unlicensed ship could mean open season against you for any pod pilots with a positive security rating (theres no gaurantee you would even get to your target)


The faction police that shoot you aren't a problem. Most suicide gankers leave their gank alts at -10.

So special gimped ships that are seeded by NPCs instead of being produced by the players in this player run economy?

And CCP controlled, you mean like a lottery? Uh-oh, we had one of those. It was unpopular.

Quote:
Further to that, modules would be required on said ships thereby nerfing your ability as a combat ship so you couldnt just get an unlicensed battleship rig it with full rails and go to town, modules like warp drive maskers (low slot items) signature radius neutralizers (mid slot items) and lets say for the sake of it certain guns had to be used (low velocity untraceable round railguns) this would further allow CCP to control how possible and profitable it is to use this equipment. The more of these modules used the more time you have to escape Concord and subsequently the more incapable your ship becomes at doing ordinary things.


Once escape becomes possible, escape becomes fairly trivial to accomplish. And again, why the special gimped ships that bypass the normal production ideal where players build the things that people use? CCP's been moving things from NPC seeding to player industry for a while.

Quote:
The potential here is interesting not only does it revitalise high sec, it adds new layers to all criminal careers, adds new options to manufacturing and lays the foundation for a black market in 0.0 or low sec that CCP can control (to a degree)


How does reducing the cost to gank in HS to 0 revitalize it? What makes you assume HS needs revitalizing in the first place? What new layers (all you've added is a new ship that everyone will fly and fit so Concord Protection time > Align time)? Why should CCP control any part of the player run economy? In what way would these things create a "black market"? And what does "Black Market" mean in lawless space anyway?

Quote:
Edit:

I would also like to add that the required modules and subsequently the skills you would require would prevent too much abuse by alts, as you would have to have a highly trained character in order to use these ships/modules.

Also warping to zero would be no longer possible with the low slot module (warp drive masker) because it now incurs a 15km deviation to warp bubble collapse to counteract it's +15 seconds to concord intervention multiplier meaning you would have to pre-plan your escape route to low-sec based on how many police are stationed on the gates you want to use, obviously higher sec means more police means more tank required means more expensive ship and making the chance of you succesfully getting from 1.0 to 0.4 almost an impossibility but 0.5 to 0.4 much more likely, at least this way the differing ratings of high sec systems matter much more too. All this while everyone in space is gunning for you... I dunno about you but that sure sounds like fun to me.


Why would you need to use an alt when you're not even going to lose your ship on a gank?

If you don't end up being able to WTZ, it's unlikely that you'll ever be able to escape, HSgate guns being what they are, so worse than being overpowered, your new ship would be unused.

So, to sum up, Wat.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#100 - 2012-09-27 19:39:38 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Hiro Ceffoe wrote:

Please highlight the incorrect assumptions and specify a reason why (in your opinion) certain ideas proposed are truly terrible.

He can't because he has nothing interesting to say or he can't formulate a good argument so he just criticize... I believe he is what is commonly referred to as a troll.


Negative Feedback = Not a Good Argument.

Golly Gee. I never knew that. How do we tell people that their terrible ideas are terrible? Must we come up with convoluted ways to spare their "feelings" by coaching the feedback so hard that it's vague to the point of uselessness?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto