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CONCORD, lowsec, and the hunted
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#21 - 2012-09-23 04:19:44 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Tippia has never been in 0.0 Shocked
Yes I have. That's (part of) why I know that aggression doesn't come at a cost there.

Removing that cost from highsec is a fundamentally horrid idea because you've just removed highsec. That cost is the one thing that makes this part of space special, and you'd have to come up with something spectacularly good that does pretty much the exact same thing if you want to remove it. Without such a replacement, the idea is dead in the water.

Jett0 wrote:
I think these arguments are mostly semantic in nature, but bring up good points.
It has nothing to do with semantics — it's a core design element of the game. What defines highsec is that aggression comes at an unavoidable and mechanically enforced cost (which is why the evasion of that cost, no matter how, is an exploit: you've just skipped part an important bit of game mechanic, kind of like if you could skip the “taking damage” part of being shot).

You're free to make yourself a legal target for others, but for highsec to function, going after anyone who isn't a legal target must have this kind of enforced cost attached to it.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#22 - 2012-09-23 04:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Gogela wrote:
...another Crimewatch thread?

I think it's more about "Crimewatch" being made mortal and less all-powerful to enhance the criminal profession as a major part of Eve.

Atm, go neg 0.5 you gotta do penance or stay in low/0.0 dodging shadows.

Consider that the best known legends about outlaws in RL were because of their skill in evasion or shootouts. Those that pushed the boundaries too hard (i.e. choice) died.

But having said that, the penalty for "dying" to Concord needs to be much more severe for such a thing to work well.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Jett0
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2012-09-23 04:25:01 UTC
Tippia wrote:
What defines highsec is that aggression comes at an unavoidable and mechanically enforced cost (which is why the evasion of that cost, no matter how, is an exploit: you've just skipped part an important bit of game mechanic, kind of like if you could skip the “taking damage” part of being shot).

You're free to make yourself a legal target for others, but for highsec to function, going after anyone who isn't a legal target must have this kind of enforced cost attached to it.


That's the whole point. I think this is a terrible mechanic.

Occasionally plays sober
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#24 - 2012-09-23 04:26:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Tippia wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Tippia has never been in 0.0 Shocked
Yes I have. That's (part of) why I know that aggression doesn't come at a cost there.

Removing that cost from highsec is a fundamentally horrid idea because you've just removed highsec. That cost is the one thing that makes this part of space special, and you'd have to come up with something spectacularly good that does pretty much the exact same thing if you want to remove it. Without such a replacement, the idea is dead in the water.

Jett0 wrote:
I think these arguments are mostly semantic in nature, but bring up good points.
It has nothing to do with semantics — it's a core design element of the game. What defines highsec is that aggression comes at an unavoidable and mechanically enforced cost (which is why the evasion of that cost, no matter how, is an exploit: you've just skipped part an important bit of game mechanic, kind of like if you could skip the “taking damage” part of being shot).

You're free to make yourself a legal target for others, but for highsec to function, going after anyone who isn't a legal target must have this kind of enforced cost attached to it.

No Tippia. The GCC flag remains and every OTHER player gets the chance to take you out BEFORE/INSTEAD of Concord.

It would make bounty hunting a true profession and would make crims an open-ended risk managed profession. You're simply not going to stay on grid to be more lethal as a (suicide ganking) crim when everyone else is ALSO trying to shoot you.

THEY (the crims) can be no more dangerous (in the sanctity of highsec) with GCC than they are now but targets of opportunity increase for every crim on the loose.

TL;DR: Retribution in the hands of players, not enforced by arbitrary lines of code.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#25 - 2012-09-23 04:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Touval Lysander wrote:
No Tippia. The GCC flag remains and every OTHER player gets the chance to take you out BEFORE/INSTEAD of Concord.
…except that that's not what the OP is suggesting. He's asking for a way to get away. This cannot happen — the cost must be enforced and unavoidable or we have functionally removed highsec from the game. What you're describing already exists. You just have to be quick about it.

Quote:
TL;DR: Retribution in the hands of players, not enforced by arbitrary lines of code.
They're not arbitrary. They're there to create a very specific effect. Retribution at the hands of players is already in the game, so there is no need to arbitrarily remove higshec to have that happen.

Jett0 wrote:
That's the whole point. I think this is a terrible mechanic.
Then you need to add a whole lot more detail to your argument why highsec should be removed (because whether you see it or not, that is what you're asking for).
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#26 - 2012-09-23 04:47:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
No Tippia. The GCC flag remains and every OTHER player gets the chance to take you out BEFORE/INSTEAD of Concord.
…except that that's not what the OP is suggesting. He's asking for a way to get away. This cannot happen — the cost must be enforced and unavoidable or we have functionally removed highsec from the game. What you're describing already exists. You just have to be quick about it.

Quote:
TL;DR: Retribution in the hands of players, not enforced by arbitrary lines of code.
They're not arbitrary. They're there to create a very specific effect. Retribution at the hands of players is already in the game, so there is no need to arbitrarily remove higshec to have that happen.

Jett0 wrote:
That's the whole point. I think this is a terrible mechanic.
Then you need to add a whole lot more detail to your argument why highsec should be removed (because whether you see it or not, that is what you're asking for).

No Tippia. (once again)
I think YOU need to explain why it "removes" highsec from the game.

And yes, OP suggested we be able run from Concord. Totally agree and I'm stating why in agreeance. I'm also suggesting how being able to run can enhance the criminal player immersion.

It won't affect highsec in the slightest - the penalty applied equals same - the punishment becomes somewhat of a variable. Being able to evade Concord simply allows MORE players to get involved in the punishment of the offender - not just Concord which IS (regardless of your wording) and ALWAYS WILL BE >>>arbitrary lines of code<<<.

YOU explain to me how a mortal, more realistic (arbitrary lines of code) Concord "removes" highsec? You're barking for a calculable and measurable reaction to a crime which is fine.

And I'm arguing that it remains WITH enhancements in these discussions - not as a seperate and mutually exclusive consequence.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2012-09-23 04:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Touval Lysander wrote:
No Tippia. (once again)
I think YOU need to explain why it "removes" highsec from the game.
Because the defining factor of highsec is that aggression comes at a cost. The OP suggests that it should not.

Quote:
It won't affect highsec in the slightest - the penalty applied equals same
…except that “no punishment” does not equal “enforced punishment” and that “avoidable cost” does not equal “enforced cost”. So yes, it will affect highsec massively by no longer offering any characteristic that differentiates it from lowsec.

Quote:
YOU explain to me how a mortal, more realistic (arbitrary lines of code) Concord "removes" highsec?
Because it means aggression no longer comes at a cost.

If you want to hunt evildoers, ask for a proper bounty-hunting system or tradeable kill rights or personal wardecs or some such — something that does not remove the enforced cost of aggression that fundamentally defines highsec (sorry pirates, you will have to play along with the same design as everyone else, and that unavoidable cost is… well… the cost of doing business in highsec).
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-09-23 04:57:29 UTC
So you want to escape Concord soemtimes. Okay, but only if you go to prison for 6 months when Concord does finally catch you, as in account locked, no training, no playtime. Would that worth the trade off for what is now a bannable offense, i.e., evading Concord?

Just curious what you want give up, if you want to take away Concord's supremacy?
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#29 - 2012-09-23 05:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tres Farmer
@OP.. your proposal will cause carebear tears and down the line decrease CCPs bottom line which is not sustainable for the company - get real.

If your concept would be sustainable there would be more carebears in low sec already.

Also try it the other way 'round.. put your version of concord into low sec and see how far you get with it before a mob with pitchforks and torches comes around
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#30 - 2012-09-23 05:30:17 UTC
If highsec is meant to be the epitomy of society.....

Society has managed fine - with crime continually decreasing - and not once did we perfect "insta-catch".



"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#31 - 2012-09-23 05:39:10 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
So you want to escape Concord soemtimes. Okay, but only if you go to prison for 6 months when Concord does finally catch you, as in account locked, no training, no playtime. Would that worth the trade off for what is now a bannable offense, i.e., evading Concord?

Just curious what you want give up, if you want to take away Concord's supremacy?

Have a think about this.

If I COULD evade Concord I'm going to pimp. If I pimp I''m going to up the ante with my ride and my implants.

If I get caught it's gonna hurt if Concord can pod me too so I'm gonna pimp to the max to prevent that.

Because I'm pimped people are going to think long and hard about stopping/catching me.

I am a legend, I am a diamond on a kb. I am Ned Kelly. I am Captain Midnight. I am Billy The Kid.


At the moment I am xxTmpAltxx, I buy some cheap ****, I insure it, I go BOOM and we all go yawn.


More importantly, doesn't matter what I do, gankee is dead ANYWAY....... The change for bears is nil.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Jett0
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-09-23 05:48:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jett0
Haha, hang on Tippia. Give me the benefit of the doubt. Like I said, I'm not great with the numbers, but you are. Instead of assuming my intentions of removing all cost in highsec, take me at face value and demonstrate a better way to achieve the same goals. For example, you mentioned bounty hunting (stay tuned for reserved post tomorrow). I agree, and think that in order for this to work, bounty hunting also has to be a viable profession.

I'm suggesting a very slight tweak to CONCORD, and the removal of fleeing as an exploit. No one's saying it should be easy. In fact, the additional cost of running will make it even harder to grind sec status back up. And even if you do, if you haven't settled the GCC, you're still shoot-on-sight. It may end up that the criminal gets killed more due to player intervention. And they STILL keep the GCC.

There's a lot of room for cool things to balance out the loopholes this creates. What about CONCORD that patrols? You'd have to scout a system to see what they've fielded (and make accurate guesses on their reinforcements). What about actually enhancing their response time, but slightly weakening their armaments? There's a lot of different ways this could go.

Tres Farmer wrote:
Also try it the other way 'round.. put your version of concord into low sec and see how far you get with it before a mob with pitchforks and torches comes around

I have seriously considered this, but I'm not sure if that would be the best route to make low a place you could make your home.

Occasionally plays sober
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-09-23 06:37:11 UTC
ok change it, but then concord fines you for making them chase you ( after they catch you I guess), 20mil per HP should work.
if you can't pay sucks to be you and you can no longer use gates to get into highsec, you are then killed and medical clone and all jump clones moved to lowsec.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#34 - 2012-09-23 06:39:17 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
ok change it, but then concord fines you for making them chase you ( after they catch you I guess), 20mil per HP should work.
if you can't pay sucks to be you and you can no longer use gates to get into highsec, you are then killed and medical clone and all jump clones moved to lowsec.

no. Move 'em to goon space and make it so you can't buy a cloaky to get out.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Agent Akari
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#35 - 2012-09-23 07:12:00 UTC
Without concord, we all would stil be flying rookie ships. Cause everyone is in Jita killing eachother.
If you can evade concord easily, soon everyone will do it and then concord has no use anymore.
Pipa Porto
#36 - 2012-09-23 07:47:11 UTC
Jett0 wrote:
Er... I suppose I should clarify: I'm saying CONCORD is boring, not overpowered.

I want to see an option to run, with a corresponding hit to your sec status per system dodged. And your GCC stays until they get you.


1. Get BLOPs (Preferably a Panther).
2. Alpha Target.
3. Jump to LS.
4. Dock and Reship to Noobship.
5. Jump to HS.
6. Get Concorded to clear perma GCC
7. Repeat.

All you need is an alt to put the Blops in a safespot, scout, and scoop the loot and an alt to light the cyno. Since your cost to gank has now dropped to [Fuel], there is no safe amount of cargo to carry in a Freighter (or any ship), so long as you're in jump range of LS.

If you're saying that the ship would have the GCC hooked to it instead of the player, what happens when you repackage and sell it? Does the new owner get suddenly CONCORD?

If it is possible to not die to CONCORD, people will learn to do it until they're able to do it reliably, at which point, CONCORD only exists for people without access to whatever makes it possible to run.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#37 - 2012-09-23 07:50:19 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jett0 wrote:
Er... I suppose I should clarify: I'm saying CONCORD is boring, not overpowered.

I want to see an option to run, with a corresponding hit to your sec status per system dodged. And your GCC stays until they get you.


1. Get BLOPs (Preferably a Panther).
2. Alpha Target.
3. Jump to LS.
4. Dock and Reship to Noobship.
5. Jump to HS.
6. Get Concorded to clear perma GCC
7. Repeat.

All you need is an alt to put the Blops in a safespot, scout, and scoop the loot and an alt to light the cyno. Since your cost to gank has now dropped to [Fuel], there is no safe amount of cargo to carry in a Freighter (or any ship), so long as you're in jump range of LS.

If you're saying that the ship would have the GCC hooked to it instead of the player, what happens when you repackage and sell it? Does the new owner get suddenly CONCORD?

If it is possible to not die to CONCORD, people will learn to do it until they're able to do it reliably, at which point, CONCORD only exists for people without access to whatever makes it possible to run.

A panther can alpha a freighter?

Gonna get me one.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Pipa Porto
#38 - 2012-09-23 08:04:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Touval Lysander wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jett0 wrote:
Er... I suppose I should clarify: I'm saying CONCORD is boring, not overpowered.

I want to see an option to run, with a corresponding hit to your sec status per system dodged. And your GCC stays until they get you.


1. Get BLOPs (Preferably a Panther).
2. Alpha Target.
3. Jump to LS.
4. Dock and Reship to Noobship.
5. Jump to HS.
6. Get Concorded to clear perma GCC
7. Repeat.

All you need is an alt to put the Blops in a safespot, scout, and scoop the loot and an alt to light the cyno. Since your cost to gank has now dropped to [Fuel], there is no safe amount of cargo to carry in a Freighter (or any ship), so long as you're in jump range of LS.

If you're saying that the ship would have the GCC hooked to it instead of the player, what happens when you repackage and sell it? Does the new owner get suddenly CONCORD?

If it is possible to not die to CONCORD, people will learn to do it until they're able to do it reliably, at which point, CONCORD only exists for people without access to whatever makes it possible to run.

A panther can alpha a freighter?

Gonna get me one.


Where did I claim One Panther could Alpha a Freighter? For Freighters and other harder targets you just get Groups together. Which is easy, because it doesn't cost anything to go a-ganking.

For a Freigher, ~25'll do, but if 30 guys show up, might as well have them all shoot, since the cost to gank is [Fuel].

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
#39 - 2012-09-23 08:14:17 UTC
How dare you shoot someone's ship in high secAttention
TharOkha
0asis Group
#40 - 2012-09-23 10:14:32 UTC
In other words
"i want gank hisec people without loosing ship"

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell