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I'm confused. What preceded warp to zero?

Author
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#41 - 2012-09-23 01:34:10 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

How does your proposal limit autopiloting? If anything, removing WTZ is a relative buff to it, as it suddenly takes just as long to AP somewhere as it would to fly there manually.


This is completely wrong. Try to think about it.
Last I checked, the autopilot doesn't activate MWD or AB.
Pilots manually at the controls activate the Prop mod, and it speeds up your time significantly.
Right now, it doesn't matter if you fit a prop mod or not - because it has no bearing on travel time AT ALL.

Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#42 - 2012-09-23 01:41:46 UTC
Hiyora Akachi wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:

As it is, a battleship can travel 20 jumps nearly as fast as a frigate. Thats not broken. Roll


Because my Raven aligns as fast as my Firetail....


Because alignment is the only thing that makes any difference at all - and its a relatively minor difference only seconds per jump.
Over 10 jumps, you are talking less than a minute difference in transit time between a Battleship and a Destroyer. MAYBE.

'Spool up, spool down' warp times are lengthy and identical for all ships.
Warp times are identical for most classes of ships,
and at any rate, the time you spend at 'MAX warp speed' is trivial in most systems, even at 3/AU. The only time you even notice it is when you are pushing a freighter.

Hull speed doesn't come into it at all. Prop mods - almost no affect beyond the Orca MWD alignment trick. And, really - they should.



Pipa Porto
#43 - 2012-09-23 01:49:02 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

How does your proposal limit autopiloting? If anything, removing WTZ is a relative buff to it, as it suddenly takes just as long to AP somewhere as it would to fly there manually.


This is completely wrong. Try to think about it.
Last I checked, the autopilot doesn't activate MWD or AB.
Pilots manually at the controls activate the Prop mod, and it speeds up your time significantly.
Right now, it doesn't matter if you fit a prop mod or not - because it has no bearing on travel time AT ALL.


Assign your MWD to F1, put a weight on F1. It won't cancel your AP.

And what of ships without prop mods?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#44 - 2012-09-23 02:04:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Bart Starr wrote:
Why would separating the majors trade hubs in each region with a narrow band of lo-sec, Cause everyone to quit?
I mean, not ALL traders are such pussies.

Show me brother, when was the last time YOU drove a freighter through lowsec?

As it's done now, only cloakies do it and no-one is going to risk a JF that can't jump to highsec either. Most trading hubs would collapse within a week or so. Period.

Don't believe me, ask wtf Jita is so damn popular? Even 0.0 comes to Jita to shop.

Bart Starr wrote:

It would simply make regional hubs more important and reward those who take the risk of running through low or nulsec.

It would bring the entire highsec universe to a complete and utter halt. Half a dozen camps could squash the entire game and ONLY those with a big enough blob could break it. You'd knock 90% of highseccers clean outta the game.

Bart Starr wrote:

EDIT: and aren't we trying to get people into lowsec?

With your preposterous reasoning, we'd be trying to get people back into highsec! Those that bothered to stay.

Get out and stay out.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#45 - 2012-09-23 02:27:06 UTC
As to the first bit, sure if that works, go nuts.

Mission was still accomplished:
Ships with prop mods and high speeds can make 10 jumps significantly faster than ships without.
IE, ships that sacrifice fit for speed get long distance travel benefits. Players that sacrifice large ships for small ships get to travel faster.
Wow, sounds like, hm - balance.

Right now you can push a Raven and a Thrasher through 10 systems in highsec at nearly the same speed. Only difference being alignment speed, which is peanuts.

As for the emo 'Death of eve' scenario the other guy is painting:

Get a grip. Jita would become less important, Dodixie, Amarr and other regional hubs will become MORE important as trade interregional between those systems are constricted, and local manufacturing becomes more important.

Traders win, because prices between regions will fluxuate and smart people figure out how to meet that demand.
Manufacturers win, as they can take move to places that suffer from local lack of supply.

YOU might throw up your hands and give up, that doesn't mean others will.
No, I'm not pushing a freighter through low-sec (unless a large escort is arranged....) - but making it difficult to move large bulky goods between regions will make the game far more interesting, instead of what he have now - prices flattened all across highsec.

Make it harder to move goods, goods become more expensive and traders/manufacturerers profit more for their efforts.

Face it, right now moving supplies from Jita to Dodixie is as simple as loading a freighter, turning on Autopilot, and taking a nap. Easy, but stupid.






Thomas Orca
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-09-23 02:36:28 UTC
If you don't want warp to 0, just go to the drone regions. 60km of bubbles on every gate. Every. *******. Gate.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#47 - 2012-09-23 02:41:44 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:

Face it, right now moving supplies from Jita to Dodixie is as simple as loading a freighter, turning on Autopilot, and taking a nap. Easy, but stupid.

Works for a large part of the community without too much kerfuffle. Only ones complaining are... Hell, I dont know who, or WHY?


Honestly, buying **** from whatever market is not going to do much. There's very little price disparity between buying at Rens to say Jita anyway.

And if you're saying I can get to a hub via highsec, then I can also AP from hub to hub via highsec anyway yes?

Unless you want the hubs either in lowsec or ringed by lowsec which is right back to no freigters will fly. It would collapse the hubs or cause them to pop up elsewhere which negates the whole reasoning.

You're not thinking this through.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#48 - 2012-09-23 02:43:04 UTC
Thomas Orca wrote:
If you don't want warp to 0, just go to the drone regions. 60km of bubbles on every gate. Every. *******. Gate.

Why would FA be flying around drone regions? Recon? Mopping up 0.0 on the cards?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Thomas Orca
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-09-23 02:53:35 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Thomas Orca wrote:
If you don't want warp to 0, just go to the drone regions. 60km of bubbles on every gate. Every. *******. Gate.

Why would FA be flying around drone regions? Recon? Mopping up 0.0 on the cards?


Because we've always been at war with Eurasia.
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#50 - 2012-09-23 02:55:19 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Thomas Orca wrote:
If you don't want warp to 0, just go to the drone regions. 60km of bubbles on every gate. Every. *******. Gate.

Why would FA be flying around drone regions? Recon? Mopping up 0.0 on the cards?

Boredom?

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#51 - 2012-09-23 02:57:22 UTC
Thomas Orca wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Thomas Orca wrote:
If you don't want warp to 0, just go to the drone regions. 60km of bubbles on every gate. Every. *******. Gate.

Why would FA be flying around drone regions? Recon? Mopping up 0.0 on the cards?


Because we've always been at war with Eurasia.

I call this for BS.

Drone Regions been laughing hard at you guys for years.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#52 - 2012-09-23 02:58:01 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:

Face it, right now moving supplies from Jita to Dodixie is as simple as loading a freighter, turning on Autopilot, and taking a nap. Easy, but stupid.

Works for a large part of the community without too much kerfuffle. Only ones complaining are... Hell, I dont know who, or WHY?


Honestly, buying **** from whatever market is not going to do much. There's very little price disparity between buying at Rens to say Jita anyway.

And if you're saying I can get to a hub via highsec, then I can also AP from hub to hub via highsec anyway yes?

Unless you want the hubs either in lowsec or ringed by lowsec which is right back to no freigters will fly. It would collapse the hubs or cause them to pop up elsewhere which negates the whole reasoning.

You're not thinking this through.


Right now, prices in Jita are very similar to prices in any other hub in Empire space.
Why? Because you can move freighter loads of goods effortlessly between them.
And because travel time is so minimal, everyone and their dog shops in Jita, as you say.

Increasing travel time makes it more difficult to players to 'pop off for a quick shopping trip in Jita'.
It increases the importance of regional hubs.
IE: I might not want to go 20 jumps to Jita (without WTZ), but a shorter trip to Rens might be ok.

Lowsec systems between racial regions not only makes sense for lore/FW reasons, most importantly it impedes the 'conveyor belt' of effortless logistics between regions.

Make each 'Empire' an island of highsec surrounded by a narrow moat of lowsec, and you'll discover that (for instance) Vagabonds might be 160M in Rens, 220M in Dodixie, and completely unavailable in Amarr space. People who can meet the challenge of moving (or manufacture them) will clean up.

Right now, with effortless supply and demand? Prices on Vagas vary by less than 3% between regions at any given time.
Why? All you have to do is fly a Freighter to Jita on autopilot, buy 20, autopilot back, BOOM, logistics done.
Thomas Orca
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-09-23 03:04:47 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
Something about Highsec logistics or some other meaningless babble


Now, I know you think you're really smart and all, but you are failing to see the positive effects of warp to zero on PvP.
Myrkala
Royal Robot Ponies
#54 - 2012-09-23 03:13:40 UTC
Okay lets consider this "You can only warp 15km to gate no matter what" mechanic.

1. No one is ever going to warp a JF freighter to a gate ever again. (8 billion isk risk). They would probably switch to normal freighters or even orcas for the last gate jump.
It would increase the strain of logistics on alliances and corporations in 0.0 enormously, you would probably want to lock down a lowsec system when doing logistics.

A result of this is probably less flow of moon go to highsec and more t2 production in 0.0. Perhaps alliances would want to control a wider collection of different types of moons to keep production running, it might drive more conflicts but I think there are just so many moons that it would just mean more work for the POS monkeys and industrial cores of the alliances.

2. HighSec Ganking becomes 9000% easier, as all Haulers/Mining Barges have to travel 15km to each gate, every one will start using cloaky haulers to move stuff to Jita. Because of this more smaller trading hubs will pop up based on population in an area, or people might use courier contracts more.

Freighters will take 2:30 minutes to approach EACH gate, in addition to their 35-40 second align time and 2 minute warp duration for most systems.

A 20 jump move with a freighter would take a whopping 102 minutes or 1hour and 42 minutes. People would probably start moving things to lowsec and jump them with Jump Freighters into a lowsec close to the destination, and go the rest of the way there because it might actually be cost effective to do. So to move things relatively quickly you would want 2 freighters and 1-2 JF to do what one freighter could do before.

3. Jump Bridges and Titan Bridges get a MASSIVE boost, making them even more important for SOV warfare than before.

4. Plated battleship fleets will be gimped a lot if they dont have a bridge to use, and getting caught in a system basically means you wont get out with heavy/total losses if you risk running the gate. This means even more logoffskies and FCs might actually consider telling people to fit cloaks on their battleships.

5. Black Ops will get a boost with this, because of their JD and cloak-velocity bonus (cloak+mwd to approach gate 6-8 seconds, fast for a bs) though fuel costs, limited jump range and bling/cost factor will still limit this option a lot. You might see them be used a bit more, and as a result more bomber gangs, not to mention bombing on gates will become easier too because of all of those ships having to turn on their MWDs to approach the gate on every gate... dear god I can hear the screams.

6. Roaming gangs become much easier to catch and those that aren't will probably not be as effective as emphasis on speed is more. This means even more nanoships than before and it would probably mean that Tier 3 BCs would be flown a LOT more than they currently are because of their good speed. Not to mention roams would probably become shorter meaning less conflicts between areas.

7. Everyone and their mother will camp gates with just a Rapier and fast locking high alpha ships, its actually easier to catch ships warping to a gate than warping from a gate now. T3 cloakies will be used even more than before.


Thats not all but its quite obvious that this would have a GIANT effect on the game, and probably make it more boring.

However, something like Warp to 5k could be interesting, it wouldnt have nearly as adverse effects but it remains to be seen what benefits the gameplay would have because of it. It would still mean instalocking alpha camps on gates, same as you see people camping stations hoping that people warping to station land 2k out of docking range. Battleship fleets would still be kind of gimped but not so much, and faster fleets would have an easier time catching them.

And as I think more about it, this will buff blobs even more. So no.
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#55 - 2012-09-23 03:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tres Farmer
Bart, this has been brought up times and times before (and also all kinds of suggestions have been put forward to 'fix' it(*).. currently CCP/Devs officially don't see this as a huge problem (or even as a tiny one). From their pov New Eden is pretty healthy(**) when it comes to travel times and ease of movement (sans the capital/projection of power thingy, which has been admitted to be of some concern and was being looked at 1-2? years ago).
For the time being there are more important things (still) that need fixing, upgrading and change in comparison to travel/transport in New Eden and will be for a while.

(*) what needs to be 'fixed' lays in the eye of the beholder (I'm 100% certain this also is true for each single Dev)

(**) read: any change to the current status quo has many, many, many unknown ramifications which are probably worse compared to whatever is perceived 'wrong' or unhealthy currently


PS: personally I think CCP has got a structural problem on their hands that will not allow big changes to happen anytime soon as it was possible in the beginning. The reason for this is 'unknown risk' - EVE is their cash cow & the whole company is relying on the income generated by it. Until such times when DUST is a cash cow of it's own and maybe WOD by itself too CCP won't be taking on risks with EVE that heavily change the game (for worse or better).

PPS: I think there was a window of opportunity for many changes to be considered worth the risk when the sol nodes/threads had problems with peoples inside a system (being either in station or in space.. Jita capped out at 600..1200 during that time and got really really laggy). Since CCP moved people docked in stations off the sol nodes and onto station/market nodes this problem is no more.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#56 - 2012-09-23 03:27:21 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
.....you'll discover that (for instance) Vagabonds might be 160M in Rens, 220M in Dodixie, and completely unavailable in Amarr space. People who can meet the challenge of moving (or manufacture them) will clean up.

Right now, with effortless supply and demand? Prices on Vagas vary by less than 3% between regions at any given time.
Why? All you have to do is fly a Freighter to Jita on autopilot, buy 20, autopilot back, BOOM, logistics done.

Ahh I got it. You produce vagas.

Seriously. So by isolating the hub you solve what? I have to go wherever the vagas are cheaper - if I'm using AP the distance can be as long as it takes - I don't care. If you put all hubs inside a lowsec collar they will cease to be hubs because very few will bother. The hubs will simply appear elsewhere and sure as eggs are eggs there will be highsec routes to and fro.


And going to Jita to load up then come back to Rens is a lot of risk on AP. If I increase my load value to make it worth my time I increase the risk. It's all relative. Freighter ganks keep it all on a nice level playing field. Lazy players trying to get rich ARE punished. People who make the EFFORT will succeed.

If you punish those making the EFFORT they will tell you to take a long walk on a short plank very quickly.

Jita is popular because of it's convenience for a large chuck of active 0.0 because of jump range, not it's potency in pricing or proximity to any other part of Eve. The market has dictated the pricing, not WTZ or any other such fanciful "too easy" theories.


And I'd bet your cookie maker to my pony comb that most buyers dont give a **** about price anyway. Convenience stores charge more in RL because they are "convenient" but they wont charge too much ├žos they'll have no customers.

It's self-levelling. What you're suggesting is some arbitrary regulation that will do nothing for changing the status quo except pissing most people off for nothing.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#57 - 2012-09-23 03:46:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tres Farmer
Touval Lysander wrote:
*snip*

Jita is popular because of it's convenience for a large chuck of active 0.0 because of jump range, not it's potency in pricing or proximity to any other part of Eve. The market has dictated the pricing, not WTZ or any other such fanciful "too easy" theories.

*snap*

Jita became 'the hub' during a time when it had several Lvl4 Caldari agents in the system and many people were running Caldari + plenty of stations for industry in/around.. same goes for the other regional hubs. Oursulaert was big before the agents got nerved/moved and Dodixie got/had better ones so the Gallente hub moved.

Nowadays Jita lays pretty convenient for both 0.0 and the other routes to the other 3 regions. Only Minmatar somewhat have their 'own' hub as the travel time from/to Jita is the longest (if you were to put in a high sec interconnect between Rens-Jita, I'm looking at you Crielere/Otou) you'd see Rens bleed out too (as did Ours/Dodixie and Amarr 3-4 years ago after WTZ was introduced).
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#58 - 2012-09-23 03:59:17 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:

Ahh I got it. You produce vagas.


No, I was simply trying to provide a concrete example of something bulky that would be much harder to transport under a fragmented Empire. I didn't want to get too abstract and confuse you.

Some of the other posts were quite good. I'm not saying it wouldn't have a major effect on the game.

Jump Freighters would certainly not like jumping directly to 15km gate without support. Thats the idea. Lock down the system, bring friends or take the risk.

Gankers would have more time to scan targets, so fitting and load management becomes more important for typical T1 industrial traffic. Of course CCP's pattern lately has been to make things easier in highsec, catering to the lowest common denominator at the expense of risk or excitement. So, don't worry, Crimewatch is going to bring the nerf hammer hard on that quite soon, just watch.

Jita simply became popular because it was a major Mission Hub in Caldari space, which was the most popular race due to bloodline balance issues. Ease of access from all other regions of space means other hubs are forever stunted. Why bother with other hubs, when Jita is so accessable? Throw up barriers and people who want to live in Minny or Gallente space will quickly enhance their own hubs - although there will likely be regional differences in availablilty of different goods and commodities. (Because of mineral availability, perhaps distance to sources of moon goo, different manufacturers in the area, or different LP stores....)

Trading becomes even harder and more rewarding - and that would be a good thing. Goods available predominantly in other regions become more 'exotic' because they need to run a gauntlet to reach other parts of Empire.

Eve would suddenly feel a lot bigger and other regions of Empire would feel much further away - and much more of an adventure to travel or trade there.
Janet Patton
Brony Express
#59 - 2012-09-23 04:03:25 UTC
I don't know why they ever changed it to allow warp to zero. Even though I'm not a pirate and I would be at a disadvantage for none warp to 0. It made EVE feel bigger and made it feel a little bit more immerse. I'm generally in favor for anything that makes the game feel more real (not realistic), even if it makes it more tedious by a small amount.

This could of easily been fixed by not letting you warp closer to any object by 10-15km. So even if you had a bookmark it would still set you back by 15km. I mean they are able to force this with bookmarks left in Dead space areas.

Why do I have this sig? I don't smoke.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#60 - 2012-09-23 04:16:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tres Farmer
Bart Starr wrote:
*snip*

Eve would suddenly feel a lot bigger and other regions of Empire would feel much further away - and much more of an adventure to travel or trade there.

CCP doesn't consider the risk associated with a change like this 'worth it', it's even questionable that there would be any public support from Gamedesign for the 'Eve should feel bigger (again)' punch line at all.

Current stance:
Fast Travel = many interactions within short timespans = much conflict = much stuff get's blown up = goods from carebears are needed = market is healthy = pve is worth it = carebears stay subscribed = CCP keeps rolling on

Unless you can bring VERY convincing.. better VERY overwhelming points to the table that would achieve the following, nothing is gonna move:
  1. keep carebears happy (at least 75% of them would need to give standing ovations)
  2. create more conflict without upsetting carebears - mission impossible? Roll
  3. reduce timesinks/spans to get your fix (50 jump roams even slower than now to find a target to shoot at is detrimental to that)
  4. reduce logistic nightmare for 0.0 (instead of increasing it)
  5. change is predictable, not costly and not breaking 100 other things (even just potentially)
  6. change makes positive contribution to world hunger + climate change Blink
  7. ...

Janet Patton wrote:
*snip*

This could of easily been fixed by not letting you warp closer to any object by 10-15km. So even if you had a bookmark it would still set you back by 15km. I mean they are able to force this with bookmarks left in Dead space areas.

It took them several months till they introduced the WTZ fix for the 'bookmark copying causes lag problem'..
Probably was the easiest fix they could come up with (only CCP would know anyways) and the interactions/ramifications any other solution that had been on the table probably would had been less easy and predictable in outcome.
Who the hell knows how costly the warp bubble/deadspace mechanic is?
Who knows how it's programmed and woven into the code and how you'd go to put this into gate travel?