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I'm confused. What preceded warp to zero?

Author
Pipa Porto
#21 - 2012-09-22 22:09:03 UTC
TheBreadMuncher wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
1. This isn't a GSF or Tech whine thread.

2. If they're so easy, why haven't you started cashing out on them?


1. It's my damn thread, it can be whatever I please.

2. Because the easymode comes in the buckets of isk taken from production with the tech materials and the monopoly over the market. Taking the moons away from these people is not easymode due to the entrenchment formed over the years of OTEC. Anyway, who says I'm not? Lol


1. That's not how forums work.

2. Goonswarm took the vast majority of the Tech they have violently. The NC fell to a coalition that did not hold significant Tech. Just because you're bad at EVE doesn't mean Tech is easymode income.*


*By the way, pointing out that Tech income requires significant amount of work (keeping up a military force capable of defending it is a significant part of that work) doesn't mean that I think it's fine as is.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#22 - 2012-09-22 23:41:53 UTC
Lester Knight Chaykin wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
Except now, they could easily get rid of Warp to Zero AND the bookmark issue and fix the damn game.
Simply build a warp-bubble into each jumpgate.

As it is, a battleship can travel 20 jumps nearly as fast as a frigate. Thats not broken. Roll

But they don't do it because of carebear tears. The WAH!!! I WANT MY EVE ON EASY MODE players.


You are stupid, did you know already?
WTZ was introduced becouse everbody and his grandma was copying bm's. There was a huge load on the servers that is now gone. Get rid of WTZ and see everybody making/copying/selling bms again. It would be just stupid, as you are, did i told you yet? (if you think i'm being rude, then use your brain next time, instead of posting ridiculous stuff like that).


Hey ******, You really don't know how to read, do you?

I didn't say remove BMs.
I said BUILD A warp BUBBLE INTO THE GATES. There, I bolded it for you.

You warp to gate, you come out of warp at 15 and then you fly to the gate.
You get clever and warp to 100km at a BM 100 km behind the gate, you come out of warp at 15.
Bookmarks are now useless and for cheating the system so, no more system lag.

So, BM problem eliminated, and travel time between systems if fixed, because now ship speed is real factor again, instead of simply alignment.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#23 - 2012-09-22 23:50:51 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
Lester Knight Chaykin wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
Except now, they could easily get rid of Warp to Zero AND the bookmark issue and fix the damn game.
Simply build a warp-bubble into each jumpgate.

As it is, a battleship can travel 20 jumps nearly as fast as a frigate. Thats not broken. Roll

But they don't do it because of carebear tears. The WAH!!! I WANT MY EVE ON EASY MODE players.


You are stupid, did you know already?
WTZ was introduced becouse everbody and his grandma was copying bm's. There was a huge load on the servers that is now gone. Get rid of WTZ and see everybody making/copying/selling bms again. It would be just stupid, as you are, did i told you yet? (if you think i'm being rude, then use your brain next time, instead of posting ridiculous stuff like that).


Hey ******, You really don't know how to read, do you?

I didn't say remove BMs.
I said BUILD A warp BUBBLE INTO THE GATES. There, I bolded it for you.

You warp to gate, you come out of warp at 15 and then you fly to the gate.
You get clever and warp to 100km at a BM 100 km behind the gate, you come out of warp at 15.
Bookmarks are now useless and for cheating the system so, no more system lag.

So, BM problem eliminated, and travel time between systems if fixed, because now ship speed is real factor again, instead of simply alignment.

Or you could just leave it like it is - and stop trying to fix sumthin' that ain't broke.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#24 - 2012-09-22 23:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Bart Starr
Touval Lysander wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
Except now, they could easily get rid of Warp to Zero AND the bookmark issue and fix the damn game.
Simply build a warp-bubble into each jumpgate.

As it is, a battleship can travel 20 jumps nearly as fast as a frigate. Thats not broken. Roll

But they don't do it because of carebear tears. The WAH!!! I WANT MY EVE ON EASY MODE players.

The WAH!!! I WANT MY LAZY GANKS ON EASY MODE

htfu. For most of us, making changes backwards at this fundamental level would be a setback for carebears AND l33ts.

Unless of course, you can send me a pic of you going to work in a horse and cart.


EDIT: Yes it is a problem - makes travelling long distance trivially easy, in any type of ship....

So, how do you fix the problem of battleships, frigates and cruisers having nearly identical travel times?

Ships speed is completely irrelevant because travel time is simply based on warp speed (identical for nearly all ships) and alignment (only seconds difference between large and small ships).

Yes, is its a problem - one that fundamentally changed the game for the worse. Sure, it made it a lot easier/convenient by making the game smaller. But easier is not better, especially when it trashes game balance between ship classes.

Sure if you are at war, it would make the game a bit more difficult because it creates a PVP zone around gates....but if it scares you that much, you can easily just avoid the wardec by joining an NPC corp, so whats the problem?
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#25 - 2012-09-22 23:57:35 UTC
Modify the warp speed and increase it for larger ships, or increase the alignment times on larger ships could be done. Removing WTZ now would be too detrimental and more annoying then anything.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-09-23 00:02:01 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:


EDIT: Yes it is a problem - makes travelling long distance trivially easy, in any type of ship....



Explain why travel should be hard, and you might have an effective argument.

It's a game. That's why we have teleportation spells and taxis in other games. Just because eve is the cutthroat all pvp filled-with-douchebags MMO doesn't mean simple things have to be arbitrarily difficult.

Removing WTZ won't make more fights happen. It won't make the game more balanced. It won't get you more kills. It won't force the pve'ers you stupidly hate to "adapt".

It will only make more people move to, and stay in, hi sec. And when that gets too crowded, people will quit.

And then the "pvpers" will quit because they don't have easy targets that don't fight back.

And then eve will die.
Pipa Porto
#27 - 2012-09-23 00:03:32 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
Ships speed is completely irrelevant because travel time is simply based on warp speed (identical for nearly all ships) and alignment (only seconds difference between large and small ships).


Punisher:
"Ship warp speed : 6.0 AU/S"

Apocalypse:
"Ship warp speed : 3 AU/S"

Providence:
"Ship warp speed : 0,7 AU/S"

Crusader:
"Warp Speed: 9 AU/s"

Just, y'know, FYI, Battleships warp slower than frigates.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#28 - 2012-09-23 00:29:53 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
Ships speed is completely irrelevant because travel time is simply based on warp speed (identical for nearly all ships) and alignment (only seconds difference between large and small ships).


Punisher:
"Ship warp speed : 6.0 AU/S"

Apocalypse:
"Ship warp speed : 3 AU/S"

Providence:
"Ship warp speed : 0,7 AU/S"

Crusader:
"Warp Speed: 9 AU/s"

Just, y'know, FYI, Battleships warp slower than frigates.


I know about interceptors and frigates. Though to be honest, even warp speed isnt a huge factor in travel time, because most of the warp time is the 'spool up and spool down' portion of the warp. Most jumps aren't large enough to mean a whole lot, unless you started slowing down battleships to near-freighter warp speeds.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#29 - 2012-09-23 00:32:52 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:

EDIT: Yes it is a problem - makes travelling long distance trivially easy, in any type of ship....

So, how do you fix the problem of battleships, frigates and cruisers having nearly identical travel times?

Ships speed is completely irrelevant because travel time is simply based on warp speed (identical for nearly all ships) and alignment (only seconds difference between large and small ships).

Yes, is its a problem - one that fundamentally changed the game for the worse. Sure, it made it a lot easier/convenient by making the game smaller. But easier is not better, especially when it trashes game balance between ship classes.

Sure if you are at war, it would make the game a bit more difficult because it creates a PVP zone around gates....but if it scares you that much, you can easily just avoid the wardec by joining an NPC corp, so whats the problem?

Yeah. You know. A 30 tonne semi with 700 horsepower can go faster than a VW with a 4 banger. Only changes if I put 700 HP into the VW.

And if you've ever flown a freighter or an Orca I beg to differ on align times being close to equal. A BS does not turn as fast as say a nano dram but a nano BS can turn awfully fast compared to say a plated frig for arguments sake.

And really, a tonne of feathers weighs exactly the same as a tonne of lead.

6au warp is 6au whether it's a frig or a BS so not sure where this "fault" is you suggest.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-09-23 00:35:05 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:

EDIT: Yes it is a problem - makes travelling long distance trivially easy, in any type of ship....

So, how do you fix the problem of battleships, frigates and cruisers having nearly identical travel times?

Ships speed is completely irrelevant because travel time is simply based on warp speed (identical for nearly all ships) and alignment (only seconds difference between large and small ships).

Yes, is its a problem - one that fundamentally changed the game for the worse. Sure, it made it a lot easier/convenient by making the game smaller. But easier is not better, especially when it trashes game balance between ship classes.

Sure if you are at war, it would make the game a bit more difficult because it creates a PVP zone around gates....but if it scares you that much, you can easily just avoid the wardec by joining an NPC corp, so whats the problem?

Yeah. You know. A 30 tonne semi with 700 horsepower can go faster than a VW with a 4 banger. Only changes if I put 700 HP into the VW.

And if you've ever flown a freighter or an Orca I beg to differ on align times being close to equal. A BS does not turn as fast as say a nano dram but a nano BS can turn awfully fast compared to say a plated frig for arguments sake.

And really, a tonne of feathers weighs exactly the same as a tonne of lead.

6au warp is 6au whether it's a frig or a BS so not sure where this "fault" is you suggest.


Let's test your theory, we'll drop a tonne of feathers on one of your feet and a tonne of lead on the other Big smile

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

stoicfaux
#31 - 2012-09-23 00:37:42 UTC
Gogela wrote:
...oh not this again. Roll


In before "get rid of jump clones!"



Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#32 - 2012-09-23 00:41:21 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:


EDIT: Yes it is a problem - makes travelling long distance trivially easy, in any type of ship....



Explain why travel should be hard, and you might have an effective argument.

It's a game. That's why we have teleportation spells and taxis in other games. Just because eve is the cutthroat all pvp filled-with-douchebags MMO doesn't mean simple things have to be arbitrarily difficult.

Removing WTZ won't make more fights happen. It won't make the game more balanced. It won't get you more kills. It won't force the pve'ers you stupidly hate to "adapt".

It will only make more people move to, and stay in, hi sec. And when that gets too crowded, people will quit.

And then the "pvpers" will quit because they don't have easy targets that don't fight back.

And then eve will die.


Travel was originally intended to take longer. Eve was larger, more vast. Only after bookmarks became abused to circumvent this it caused server issues. But its simply not right that an industrial and a mining barge can travel vast distances nearly as fast as an interceptor, because fitting for ship speed has been nearly eliminated from the equation. Doesn't matter if you fly a Vagabond or a Abaddon - you can move it between systems just as fast.

Removing WTZ doesn't make the game more 'arbitrarily difficult'. It simply makes slow ships and large ships harder to move.
If you want to make 20 jumps, fit for speed or fly an interceptor. Easy.

I'm not even approaching this from the standpoint of PVP or ganking.
I'm thinking in terms of markets. Not only should WTZ be removed to increase distances between trade hubs, I think there should also be a band of low-sec between each ''Racial' zone. Make it impossible to travel between Rens, Dodixie Amarr and Jita without going through at least one 0.4 or below system.

Would vastly improve the game as far as logistics is concerned and would create unique markets in each region as 'EZ autopilot logistics' is inihibited. Imbalances in each local region would create a much more diverse market, and richly reward traders willing to run the gauntlet between regions.
Pipa Porto
#33 - 2012-09-23 00:46:30 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
Ships speed is completely irrelevant because travel time is simply based on warp speed (identical for nearly all ships) and alignment (only seconds difference between large and small ships).


Punisher:
"Ship warp speed : 6.0 AU/S"

Apocalypse:
"Ship warp speed : 3 AU/S"

Providence:
"Ship warp speed : 0,7 AU/S"

Crusader:
"Warp Speed: 9 AU/s"

Just, y'know, FYI, Battleships warp slower than frigates.


I know about interceptors and frigates. Though to be honest, even warp speed isnt a huge factor in travel time, because most of the warp time is the 'spool up and spool down' portion of the warp. Most jumps aren't large enough to mean a whole lot, unless you started slowing down battleships to near-freighter warp speeds.


So, when you said that the warp speed was identical for nearly all ships, you were...

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#34 - 2012-09-23 00:51:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Bart Starr wrote:
Would vastly improve the game as far as logistics is concerned and would create unique markets in each region as 'EZ autopilot logistics' is inihibited. Imbalances in each local region would create a much more diverse market, and richly reward traders willing to run the gauntlet between regions.


What? "EZ autopilot logistics" is already 15k off gate, how could removing WTZ "improve "logistics.

Quote:
Make it impossible to travel between Rens, Dodixie Amarr and Jita without going through at least one 0.4 or below system.

And how does making everyone go through low to get to the markets make the markets better? You trying to kill Eve completely??



Besides, anyone asking for WTZ to be removed has NEVER gone to rescue mates 30 jumps out.

This is getting a rather silly justifcation to "fix" something that ain't broke. Roll

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Pipa Porto
#35 - 2012-09-23 00:51:32 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
Travel was originally intended to take longer. Eve was larger, more vast. Only after bookmarks became abused to circumvent this it caused server issues. But its simply not right that an industrial and a mining barge can travel vast distances nearly as fast as an interceptor, because fitting for ship speed has been nearly eliminated from the equation. Doesn't matter if you fly a Vagabond or a Abaddon - you can move it between systems just as fast.


Not being able to WTZ was intended to make travel in unfamiliar areas harder.

Quote:
Removing WTZ doesn't make the game more 'arbitrarily difficult'. It simply makes slow ships and large ships harder to move.
If you want to make 20 jumps, fit for speed or fly an interceptor. Easy.

I'm not even approaching this from the standpoint of PVP or ganking.
I'm thinking in terms of markets. Not only should WTZ be removed to increase distances between trade hubs, I think there should also be a band of low-sec between each ''Racial' zone. Make it impossible to travel between Rens, Dodixie Amarr and Jita without going through at least one 0.4 or below system.


And making solo travel through LS or Null nearly impossible in anything without a cloak.

Quote:
Would vastly improve the game as far as logistics is concerned and would create unique markets in each region as 'EZ autopilot logistics' is inihibited. Imbalances in each local region would create a much more diverse market, and richly reward traders willing to run the gauntlet between regions.


How does your proposal limit autopiloting? If anything, removing WTZ is a relative buff to it, as it suddenly takes just as long to AP somewhere as it would to fly there manually.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-09-23 00:52:14 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:

But its simply not right that an industrial and a mining barge can travel vast distances nearly as fast as an interceptor, because fitting for ship speed has been nearly eliminated from the equation. Doesn't matter if you fly a Vagabond or a Abaddon - you can move it between systems just as fast.

I know, right?
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#37 - 2012-09-23 01:04:59 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
Ships speed is completely irrelevant because travel time is simply based on warp speed (identical for nearly all ships) and alignment (only seconds difference between large and small ships).


Punisher:
"Ship warp speed : 6.0 AU/S"

Apocalypse:
"Ship warp speed : 3 AU/S"

Providence:
"Ship warp speed : 0,7 AU/S"

Crusader:
"Warp Speed: 9 AU/s"

Just, y'know, FYI, Battleships warp slower than frigates.


I know about interceptors and frigates. Though to be honest, even warp speed isnt a huge factor in travel time, because most of the warp time is the 'spool up and spool down' portion of the warp. Most jumps aren't large enough to mean a whole lot, unless you started slowing down battleships to near-freighter warp speeds.


So, when you said that the warp speed was identical for nearly all ships, you were...


Cruisers, HACs, DSTs, Battlecruisers, Command Ships, Logistics, Destroyers, Heavy Interdictors, Recons, Strategic Cruisers, Battleships, Marauders, Black Ops, aaaand, Noobships.

Thats a lot of ships of vastly different size, traveling at identical speeds.

And don't get too hung up on warp-speeds either - its a relatively small component of total travel time, as I pointed out.
Would hate to see you get wrapped around the axle on a minor point.

Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#38 - 2012-09-23 01:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Bart Starr wrote:

And don't get too hung up on warp-speeds either - its a relatively small component of total travel time, as I pointed out.
Would hate to see you get wrapped around the axle on a minor point.

Like entirely ignoring the point that larger things can have larger engines and thus their speed CAN be the same.

And yet, in Eve I put a 100 mwd on a BS I am STILL not going to move at the same speed as a frig with a 1 mwd.

If warp speed is a "minor point" and not the issue then WHERE is the fault here?

A pimped HAC moves quick. A pimped frig is STILL faster. Doesnt matter how many equations you try to throw at it.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#39 - 2012-09-23 01:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Bart Starr
Touval Lysander wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
Would vastly improve the game as far as logistics is concerned and would create unique markets in each region as 'EZ autopilot logistics' is inihibited. Imbalances in each local region would create a much more diverse market, and richly reward traders willing to run the gauntlet between regions.


What? "EZ autopilot logistics" is already 15k off gate, how could removing WTZ "improve "logistics.


Try autopiloting through low-sec, tell me how it goes. The bit you quoted was about dividing Caldari, Gallente, Amarr, and Minmatar space with lowsec.

Removing WTZ increases travel time significantly for large/slow ships freighters/industrials that aren't autopiloting.

Plated Battleships, ships without AB/MWD, slow ass industrials would take significantly longer to move 5 jumps than a gang of Vagabonds. This is an improvement because it rewards faster ships with faster travel times, and makes trade both slower and more risky.

You might have to think twice about what type of ship you use to make a 30 jump trip to rescue your friends, because right now, it hardly matters what you use.

Why would separating the majors trade hubs in each region with a narrow band of lo-sec, Cause everyone to quit?
I mean, not ALL traders are such pussies.
It would simply make regional hubs more important and reward those who take the risk of running through low or nulsec.
EDIT: and aren't we trying to get people into lowsec?
Hiyora Akachi
Advanced Hole Theory
#40 - 2012-09-23 01:31:22 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:

As it is, a battleship can travel 20 jumps nearly as fast as a frigate. Thats not broken. Roll


Because my Raven aligns as fast as my Firetail....