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[Winter] ORE frigate

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Tanaka Aiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2012-09-21 21:34:46 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Doddy wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • The bonuses multiply, thus its 2*1.25 = 2.5 boost at level 5. Thus the 2 bonused gas harvesters become 5.
  • The ship was play tested in low-security gas sites - it's not necessarily made to tank null-security sites as it is an entry level hull.
  • As said in the OP, industry tutorials should be changed to give this frigate instead of the old ones.


Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites.


cool did not know destroyers had cargo hold of 5k

gas takes very little space you know
Doddy
Excidium.
#82 - 2012-09-21 21:39:33 UTC
Cartheron Crust wrote:
Plenty bads in this thread crying. I have never taken damage from harvesting gas that you make boosters from. Arrow


The large 0.0 only sites have a percentage chance with each cycle of emitting a therm smartbomb effect of 1000 damage that hits everything within 5k of the cloud. That can be nasty if you get unlucky and get several damage bursts in a row. Its much worse with multiple ships as each one has a chance of triggering the effect and any mining must be within 1.5k of the cloud. So while you might be able to fit this frig to tank on its own 2 or 3 would die.

Still if you are going to kill the rats defending the site (there alot in the biggest site) and mine it instead of just mining the same gas out of the smaller low sec sites that also spawn in 0.0 and have no damage one assumes you can fit out a couple of moas and a hauler :).
Doddy
Excidium.
#83 - 2012-09-21 21:43:35 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Doddy wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • The bonuses multiply, thus its 2*1.25 = 2.5 boost at level 5. Thus the 2 bonused gas harvesters become 5.
  • The ship was play tested in low-security gas sites - it's not necessarily made to tank null-security sites as it is an entry level hull.
  • As said in the OP, industry tutorials should be changed to give this frigate instead of the old ones.


Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites.


cool did not know destroyers had cargo hold of 5k


Jetcans ftw.

Still yeah i do on second glance quite like this even if its raw output is no better than a dessie.
Otashi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-09-21 23:01:19 UTC
Utterly pointless!
Otashi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2012-09-21 23:04:57 UTC
If anything you should be focusing on lowering the requirements of the current ships and developing a ship that can gas harvest faster and hold more than a battlecruiser cause honestly it doesn't take long to get into a BC. As for mining I guess its ok if you don't have much of anything for mining skills and ore spaceship command.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#86 - 2012-09-21 23:18:45 UTC
Cpt Gobla wrote:
Hrm... seeing as Gas Clouds come in chunks of 10m3 and you can't harvest half-chunks the gas bonus is completely useless on T1 harvesters and only useful on T2 harvesters when maxed.

At lvl 1 it would give 21m3 on a T1 Harvester but you can't harvest 1m3 of gas. So you harvest 2 chunks. At lvl 5 you harvest 25m3 but, again, you only get 2 chunks. Only with a T2 Harvester and ORE Frigate V do you hit 50m3 which translates to one additional chunk gained.

Skill Level <-> Actual yield per T1 Harvester <-> Actual yield per T2 Harvester
1 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3
2 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3
3 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3
4 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3
5 <-> 20m3 <-> 50m3



Not all gas is in 10m3 chunks.

Take Fullerite-C28 for example. It's 2m3 per unit. or C50, at 1m3.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2012-09-21 23:28:29 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Cpt Gobla wrote:
Hrm... seeing as Gas Clouds come in chunks of 10m3 and you can't harvest half-chunks the gas bonus is completely useless on T1 harvesters and only useful on T2 harvesters when maxed.

At lvl 1 it would give 21m3 on a T1 Harvester but you can't harvest 1m3 of gas. So you harvest 2 chunks. At lvl 5 you harvest 25m3 but, again, you only get 2 chunks. Only with a T2 Harvester and ORE Frigate V do you hit 50m3 which translates to one additional chunk gained.

Skill Level <-> Actual yield per T1 Harvester <-> Actual yield per T2 Harvester
1 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3
2 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3
3 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3
4 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3
5 <-> 20m3 <-> 50m3



Not all gas is in 10m3 chunks.

Take Fullerite-C28 for example. It's 2m3 per unit. or C50, at 1m3.


True enough.

But the point still stands that, with the exception of 1m3 gasses for both harvesters and 2m3 gasses for T2 harvesters, there's going to be a lot of skill levels which don't do anything at all when it comes to gas mining.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-09-21 23:35:19 UTC
I reckon there could be a tech 2 version of the ship down the road a little that gets a bigger gas harvesting bonus Smile

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Sigras
Conglomo
#89 - 2012-09-22 00:08:08 UTC
Doddy wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • The bonuses multiply, thus its 2*1.25 = 2.5 boost at level 5. Thus the 2 bonused gas harvesters become 5.
  • The ship was play tested in low-security gas sites - it's not necessarily made to tank null-security sites as it is an entry level hull.
  • As said in the OP, industry tutorials should be changed to give this frigate instead of the old ones.


Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites.

Thats fine if you only want to mine gas, and dont mind having a really small cargo bay for the gas.

This ship does more than that though . . .
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
#90 - 2012-09-22 01:31:50 UTC
I mostly like it, but i think there were some things overlooked in regards to modules and bonuses. The hull itself looks amazing, and i really like the way this is headed, i just feel the following things should be brought to light.

Gas volumes and bonuses issue

Most gases are 10 M3 meaning the per level (not the role bonus which is fine) gas bonus has very limited usefullness till gas harvesting and mining frig are trained to 5. Perhaps a cycle Bonus would be appropriate for the ship, giving it a slight edge over a 5 turret ship if a player takes the time to train the frigate skill to 5, as opposed to making it perfectly equal.

The Miner II module (and its largely unused faction/storyline varients)

These modules have a drastically increased activation cost. and without the - 60% bonus the current mining frigs have it makes those modules very taxing if not impractical to use, especially for newer characters. These modules are almost garuanteed to be fitted however due to needing Mining IV as a prerequisite for astrogeology and therefore mining barge. I don't think there is actually a fitting concern for these modules, and no need to change the ship, just bring the activation costs inline with the other mining lasers and this problem will be mitigated.

Deep Core Mining Lazers

The Deep Core Mining Lazer, and the ORE variant both require far to much CPU to fit on this ship, and with battleship mining no longer a common practice these modules should either be phased out, or reworked for this ship (lower the CPU). It would be nice to be able to have one of these handy if your rorqual pilot is a few units shy of a compression cycle, or for nOObs getting their ninja mine on. The Modulated Deep Core Miner II allso has the potential to see more use in a similar role, for ores other than just Mercoxit. It's fitting parameters are fine, but all three of these modules are steep on activation cost for a frigate sized capacitor. I would recommend reducing that, and additionally increasing the cargo hold by perhaps 25-50 M3 to allow for crystals to be utilized. (they were decreased to 25 M3 volume IIRC)

'Splodeyness

This ship cannot handle gas cloud or mercoxit explosions in any way. Perhaps this will be the purview of a T2 version, but i would still like to see this ship be able to handle those situations because they are a reality for the larger ships as much as the smaller ones. You may as well learn early on. A role bonus similar to the old Skiff may work, or perhaps providing a static damage reduction from these types of explosions would be the way to go here, but i think this is more optional, especially if a more resilient T2 variant is planned.

Deffense and Drones

Although the Bantam does just fine with one drone and significantly lower shield HP, i still think this ship warrents a larger drone bay and bandwidth. As it is the first step to a mining barge, flying it like one makes sense. Its speed, and shield levels are fine given its low sig and the penitent of nOObs to orbit their roids, but i think you should increase tha bandwidth by 5 and the bay by 20 allowing two flights of three drones to be usable. in all likelihood mining drones and combat drones, but ninja miners may opt for ECM drones or something more exotic (spider drone taking nOOb mining fleets anyone? Lol).

Maybe Some Icing?

Why not give it a Bonus to survey scanners? Not a huge deal, but it would increase its versatility even for older players if you could scout belts with it quickly and efficiently. as it stands, most people don't use the Orca or Rorqual bonuses for it, and i don't think giving a role bonus for them to this ship is going to really break anything.
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2012-09-22 01:37:27 UTC
Unless something has changed or will change, gas is not currently accepted into a OreHold.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#92 - 2012-09-22 01:44:10 UTC
- About 1-2 too many mid-slots.
- Needs slightly more capacitor.
- Scan resolution seems high, # of max targets seems high.
- 5000 m3 of ore bay is a bit on the large side, 3000-4000 m3 would be more reasonable for a giveaway ship
- Cycle bonus makes more sense for gas mining
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#93 - 2012-09-22 01:51:22 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Cartheron Crust wrote:
Plenty bads in this thread crying. I have never taken damage from harvesting gas that you make boosters from. Arrow


The large 0.0 only sites have a percentage chance with each cycle of emitting a therm smartbomb effect of 1000 damage that hits everything within 5k of the cloud. That can be nasty if you get unlucky and get several damage bursts in a row. Its much worse with multiple ships as each one has a chance of triggering the effect and any mining must be within 1.5k of the cloud. So while you might be able to fit this frig to tank on its own 2 or 3 would die.

Still if you are going to kill the rats defending the site (there alot in the biggest site) and mine it instead of just mining the same gas out of the smaller low sec sites that also spawn in 0.0 and have no damage one assumes you can fit out a couple of moas and a hauler :).

Without checking you should be able to get these to a few k EHP, so fit some buffer and support them with someone else in one of the new logi frigs to keep them repped up? Keep the harvester cycles out of sync to prevent alpha.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2012-09-22 01:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
3/3/1 ? ok mid slots for tank... low for... warpcorestabilizer ftw!!!

Although it really need +5 drone bandwidth and + 15m³ drone bay.

But I don't see it solo on unknown space... Make a t2 version for WH exploration, ninja-miner with good tank and cloak!!!!

(or make a cloak micro POS with clone facility, so the pilot could use as a base and buy the risk of doing such risk things, read my signature for more info Blink lol, just an idea...)

Anyway, I loved the frigate! Good Job!

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
#95 - 2012-09-22 02:18:25 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
3/3/1 ? ok mid slots for tank... low for... warpcorestabilizer ftw!!!

Although it really need +5 drone bandwidth and + 15m³ drone bay.

But I don't see it solo on unknown space... Make a t2 version for WH exploration, ninja-miner with good tank and cloak!!!!

Anyway, I loved the frigate! Good Job!



Low for MLU II it can easily fit this with minimal core skills

Miner II x2
Tractor for jet can, or Salvager for looting wrecks

1MN Afterburner II
Survey Scanner II
Resist mod or Small Shield Booster

Mining Laser Upgrade II or Damage Control II if you want more EHP instead of yield

Rigs to taste

also with good fitting skills you could get a medium shield extender, but that will puff your sig up a bit.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-09-22 02:44:28 UTC
Furry Commander wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
3/3/1 ? ok mid slots for tank... low for... warpcorestabilizer ftw!!!

Although it really need +5 drone bandwidth and + 15m³ drone bay.

But I don't see it solo on unknown space... Make a t2 version for WH exploration, ninja-miner with good tank and cloak!!!!

Anyway, I loved the frigate! Good Job!



Low for MLU II it can easily fit this with minimal core skills

Modulated Deep Core Miner II x2
Tractor for jet can, or Salvager for looting wrecks

1MN Afterburner II
Survey Scanner II
Resist mod or Small Shield Booster

Mining Laser Upgrade II or Damage Control II if you want more EHP instead of yield

Rigs to taste

also with good fitting skills you could get a medium shield extender, but that will puff your sig up a bit.

I like but one change. It requires deep core mining II, uses the same CPU, and can for regular mining crystals for a big yeald increase.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#97 - 2012-09-22 03:04:28 UTC
Plz plz plz add another turret... Pretty plz.... 3rd turret would make it much more efficient battle boat.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#98 - 2012-09-22 04:28:52 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
- About 1-2 too many mid-slots.

Disagree completely. Prop mod + a bit of tank, since this thing's low on the EHP.

Scrapyard Bob wrote:
- Needs slightly more capacitor.

Agreed.

Scrapyard Bob wrote:
- Scan resolution seems high, # of max targets seems high.

Now that I think about it, not really. It takes some time to lock up a 'roid in a BS, but then you have ships like the Procuror with a high scan res. It kind of makes sense.

Scrapyard Bob wrote:
- 5000 m3 of ore bay is a bit on the large side, 3000-4000 m3 would be more reasonable for a giveaway ship

Agreed.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-09-22 04:48:43 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
- Scan resolution seems high.

I can see this for using a cloak in the utility high slot

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-09-22 05:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
There doesn't need to be more annoying salvagers in highsec. It isn't meant to be a "ninja" profession.


Guy in an alliance whose members spend most of their time blowing up cyno frigates on lowsec undocks complains about annoying ninja salvagers.

:cripes:


Serious criticism time: Why are you giving a ship that is built for ninja-mining (complete with frigate speeds, high agility, and a utility high for a cloak) +2 warp core strength? It sounds like it's extremely escapable without the bonus. Is this simply more pandering to moronic carebears who can't be bothered to monitor their surroundings?