Assembly Hall

I've played this game for quite a few years now and have seen lots of trends in ships and fittings. Ships have come in and out of fashion, but there is one class of ship that has steadily gotten worse and is now close to obsolete... in the future this situation will only get worse. HAC’s.

So a few years ago ships like the Deimos, Vagabond, Zealot and Ishtar TERRIFIED me and a lot of other people too. They had strong damage, high base resists and lots of slots to take advantage of utility modules, even unbonused ones. These days they are still ok, but do not justify their cost *and this is a factor - T2 prices are not as inflated as they were years ago*. Combine this with them being a T2 ship that has no role and no reason to be flown over slightly larger combat ships and things get a little bleak for HAC’s.

Faction/Pirate cruisers are much better and similarly priced with amazing bonuses that give them definite roles. Battlecruisers can do their job better than them, in every way (Tier 3 BC's make all sniper variants of HAC's obsolete). So why when HAC's haven’t changed do they suddenly find themselves adrift in a sea of mediocrity? Well let's highlight some key changes in eve that have affected them:

• Module stacking nerf - A good change, but it ended the 7 Heat Sink Zealots reign of 1-shotting terror.


• Warp Core Stab nerf - expensive, relatively small ships suddenly lose their 'get-out-of-jail-free' option when things got too hot. Vagabonds with 2+ stabs where not only common, but regarded as legitimate and necessary.


• Tier 2 BC’s – These new combat orientated BC’s where a huge nail in the HAC coffin. Costing a fraction of the price with more offensive and defensive options… speed was the only thing HAC’s had going for them at this point.


• Nos nerf - Those utility High slots suddenly became less useful. Neuts hurt their own, limited capacitor a lot and medium Nos don't suck frigates dry the way they used too. It's a lot of extra fitting that just isn't worth it.


• ECM nerf - People will remember the Nos/ECM ishtar. It was devastating. But still, the ECM saved these ships from taking damage sometimes and also gave them another get-out factor.


• Capacitor/EHP global buffs - These hurt HAC's more than helped them. Using high DPS and quickly overwhelming ships became less of an option, and while they might still win some of these engagements... it leaves more time for backup to arrive and quickly tackle and destroy these relatively low-HP T2 ships.


• Nano nerf - I agree, moving at 10km/s in a battleship was stupid, but most HAC's found a new lease of life when they could break the 4k mark. They could avoid damage then swoop in like wolfs and tear targets apart at an opportune moment, then flee again to fight another day.


• Web nerf - Drop a frig to 100m/s then cut it in half with 500 dps doesn't really work anymore, so they aren't as strong in the anti-frig role.

So... What to do?

HAC's need a role. The MWD bonus the AF's got was nice but ultimately only useful when sig kiting on small ships... like frigates. In large fleets HAC’s are too expensive and don’t add anything another ship doesn’t do better or cheaper. 'Hit and Run' is something HAC's always did well, behind enemy lines in small gangs or solo. So how can we achieve this?
Well I’m open to suggestions, but i think something radical is called for - here are a few idea's:

N.B. The purpose of these changes to keep their offensive and defensive abilities the same but to also give them the ability to escape small engagements. They will still die to medium+ gangs, or gangs with heavy tackle or EW VERY quickly. This is more aimed at getting HAC's into belts with unsuspecting targets, or catching stragglers/scouts for larger fleets and allowing them to get out afterwards once help starts to filter through.

• Immunity to Warp Scramblers MWD cancelling effect - Sounds crazy? Yea it is, but it also means that they can escape almost any solo engagement. I'm not sure this is the best solution, but I’m putting it on the table to inspire some creative thinking. I personally don't like "immunities" as a solution however.


• Bonus to warp Strength - We have seen this on transport ships. This would be, for example, +2 - allowing them to escape a scrambler point blank if a frigate burns to them or to escape 2 long points if they are being kited by interceptors (who sit at 20km and move far too fast to slingshot or otherwise escape).


• No penalties for fitting WCS - this is similar to the above but allows these ships to fit as many bonuses to warp strength as they please, at the expensive of lo-slot tank, speed or gank.


• Immunity to NOS/Neuts - again, i don't like immunities and i think this wouldn't achieve the hit and run goal... simply make them unkillable through cap warfare.


• 'Old Fashioned NOS' - so they basically get NOS to work the way they used to, sucking cap regardless of your own cap level.

Of all the above idea's i prefer the warp-strength related ones, as these are easily overcome by larger gangs or stationary bubbles but still give them and edge in 1v1's. Feel free to comment.

BHAC gangs are popular right now, but that's an extrememly limited use of this ship class, and not to mention the vast majority of HAC's aren't included in those gangs...

AHAC gangs wont be as popular when tiericide reaches the cruisers, since tech 1 cruisers will be 100 times cheaper and have similar effectiveness.

Beam buffs only really effects the Zealot - we're still left with ships like the cerberus and deimos which are literally pointless compared to T3's and Battle cruisers.

And i actually think the vaga isn't fine. I have flown the vaga for years across my accounts and have to say: It's underwhelming these days. I would rather pay extra and fly as sleipnir since the vaga's speed bonus leaves you with a hard choice: Have better damage and projetion and only move 2400, or get more speed and lose damage and projection (at which point the vaga does about < 200 DPS at any sort of real range).

The sleipnir on the other hand has the projection, slightly faster than most BC's/BS's and enough gank+tank to make anything faster than you wish it didn't catch you in the first place.

Im not saying HAC's are completely useless. They just don't offer must to the line-up right now. T2 frigs all have a role. T2 Battlecruisers have a role. T3's have multiple roles. T2 BS's... they work as intended.

Now when you look at the T2 cruiser line-up you have Logistics, mega buffed and very useful. Recons, who for better or worse have a definite role and then HAC's... which kinda feel like expensive battle cruisers with slightly better agility and resists and MUCH worse EHP.

With regards to the sliepnir and vagabond: The Vaga needs 5 low slots to do that sort of damage at those ranges, which means no speed mods or EHP - which severely cuts down is survivability. And the sleipnir is simply top of the dog pile right now with ASB's - it's a monster, sig radius or not.

Sig tanking is such a finite thing, most 100mn AB cruisers are the only ones who can take advantage of it to any real effect. You need to have a signature literally half of a gun/missiles target sig for it to start significantly lowers the damage you take. Slap on a few LSE's and the point is void on the vagabond.

Immunity to scram MWD effect would really only be a boost to shield / kiting hacs, while I doubt an armor zealot or sacrilege or diemost would truly benefit from it. As for +x warp core stab strength / no penalty to warp core stabs, etc.... what are you trying to create here? Blockade runners and mining barges have/had this utility built into the hull, but that's so they could run away... somehow, creating a combat vessel with a get-out-of-jail-free card doesn't make a good design philosophy. This will certainly make them more hit and run-ish... but hit and run shouldn't be about surprise and potency, with the caveat that a poorly chosen target with nearby backup can result in the loss of your ship... I'd much prefer suggestions like: all hacs get stronger webs, or increased propulsion jamming (scram/web/disrupt) range, or ... Something that helps them FIGHT better, not run away better!!!

I agree with you that tier 2 BC's offer cheaper, excellent dps, excellent tank alternatives to HAC's.... that tier 3 BC's offer high-speed, high-dps, excellent range/alpha, yet is cheaper alternatives to HACs, and t3 cruisers offer significant advantages over HACs if you're willing to spend a little more... I also agree that pirate cruisers overshadow hacs... but that's mostly because they ARE HACs, or have extremely unique utility like 90% webs. In the end, I don't think there is a fix-all solution that will suddenly make HACs viable again.... I think all BC's need to be rebalanced first, and then HAC's given an appropriate role bonuses that make them superior choices over the BC counterparts....

wouldn't a MWD sig bonus be enough.

I don't see a severe problem with hacs although considering their cost, they are not too amazing. However for me, the hacs should be all about getting in the fight dealing good damage, and good mobility... they definitely should not be immune to scram by default.

[typo forgot to put "not" after should"]

Isthar is phenomenal for PVE and PVP. It's not easy to fly, but it can project damage better than most other HAC's without risking itself. Put a 30km point on it and give it some speed... it's quite effective. Worse comes to worst you dump your drones and flee.

That's kinda what im talking about. HAC's being able to do that is good - it's also why the cynabal is popular. But I'm trying to get some idea to make all HAC's feel like they are that good. The vaga is decent, as is the Zealot - but these and in the minority. The GTFO factor is what makes them popular, since other ships can tank and gank harder.

Projection and run-away-factor are top choices for making a HAC harrass gang.

Extra fitting would allow them to do things involving 100mn AB's and the like. it doesn't address the issues that the close range HAC's have with being close to pointless.