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NPC combat AI to be upgraded. Your thoughts?

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#81 - 2012-09-26 12:18:19 UTC
It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.

Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)



.
Allophyl
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#82 - 2012-09-26 12:20:58 UTC
Roime wrote:
It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.

Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)

This isn't fixing it, it's breaking it more. Why do you think every single MMO out there has a way to control a mob's aggro? Do you seriously think that taking that ability away is going to be good for the game?
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#83 - 2012-09-26 14:47:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
i'll just buy 10000 T1 drones and never ever recover them. problem solved.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#84 - 2012-09-26 15:58:21 UTC
Allophyl wrote:
Roime wrote:
It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.

Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)

This isn't fixing it, it's breaking it more. Why do you think every single MMO out there has a way to control a mob's aggro? Do you seriously think that taking that ability away is going to be good for the game?


Do you actually claim that wh PVE and Incursions are bad for the game, because they are not like other MMOs? Or something.

.
Allophyl
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#85 - 2012-09-26 18:05:01 UTC
Roime wrote:
Allophyl wrote:
Roime wrote:
It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.

Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)

This isn't fixing it, it's breaking it more. Why do you think every single MMO out there has a way to control a mob's aggro? Do you seriously think that taking that ability away is going to be good for the game?


Do you actually claim that wh PVE and Incursions are bad for the game, because they are not like other MMOs? Or something.


Is this a troll, or are you just that dense and incapable of actually reading? Having a way to control a mob's aggro is essential for group PvE to work, otherwise you have squishy dps players/ships dying all the time and leaving the tanks without enough dps to kill the mobs, and anything beyond solo PvE becomes unfun, or else EVERYBODY is forced in to the same, identical cookie-cutter role. In Eve, rather than having skills to control aggro, we're able to exploit its AI. YES, it is unrealistic, but so is the mechanic in other MMOs, and since when do we play MMOs for their realism? Fun > Realism.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#86 - 2012-09-26 18:39:30 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Ishen Villone wrote:

Realistically, though, the AI needs to change because right now the default AI is absolutely pathetic. It's boring, and boring hurts Eve.
This will definitely make the high end DED complexes more interesting. Any ship on the field is going to have to be able to tank those ridiculous citadel torpedoes. Gurista complexes will be particularly... er, interesting, since their torpedo does EM damage.


+10 on this
+100 on this

The missions are too much of a cakewalk with the predictable current AI.
Incursion AI can still surprise at times & although it does become a grind they often can become challenging when someone DC's or screws something up. I assume the sleeper AI is the same.

I think it is far FAR BETTER to improve the AI to reduce the mission/rat/anom/complex ISK faucets then to have to resort to the 10% across the board bounty reductions that CCP Soundwave was putting forth during his TenTonHammer interview earlier this year.

I see this as a good step and hopefully one of many towards improving Eve's PvE.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2012-09-26 18:48:01 UTC
My thoughts:

Instead of people running a tank and dps for lvl 4 missions, you're just now going to see the same thing you saw in wormholes - RR'ing ships that orbit each other. My dominix/dps combo will now become RR domi/domi sentry drone.. Yawn.
Chimpy B
The Philosophy Of Two
#88 - 2012-09-26 20:11:02 UTC
I foresee the market cost of deadspace modules is going to go up :p
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#89 - 2012-09-26 20:29:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Allophyl wrote:
Roime wrote:
Allophyl wrote:
Roime wrote:
It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.

Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)

This isn't fixing it, it's breaking it more. Why do you think every single MMO out there has a way to control a mob's aggro? Do you seriously think that taking that ability away is going to be good for the game?


Do you actually claim that wh PVE and Incursions are bad for the game, because they are not like other MMOs? Or something.


Is this a troll, or are you just that dense and incapable of actually reading? Having a way to control a mob's aggro is essential for group PvE to work, otherwise you have squishy dps players/ships dying all the time and leaving the tanks without enough dps to kill the mobs, and anything beyond solo PvE becomes unfun, or else EVERYBODY is forced in to the same, identical cookie-cutter role. In Eve, rather than having skills to control aggro, we're able to exploit its AI. YES, it is unrealistic, but so is the mechanic in other MMOs, and since when do we play MMOs for their realism? Fun > Realism.


I do only group PVE in EVE, against rats that already have this improved AI.

Take your dumb back to wow, while we have fun with remote repair.

Oh and this PVE is even more fun because it happens in -1.0 space with very limited means to control player aggro.

.
Allophyl
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#90 - 2012-09-26 20:54:36 UTC
Roime wrote:
Take your dumb back to wow.

Not only have I never even touched wow, aggro-control mechanics have existed since the days of MUDs, many of which, if you want this to be a "EVE is so hardcore and so am I hurr durr go back to wow" pissing contest, were far less forgiving than Eve is. Enjoy your cookie-cutter fits.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#91 - 2012-09-26 20:56:44 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:



Testing to see if any of this is really an issue is needed. CCP said it will not be nearly as bad a W-space. I fly a Thanny in W, so I know what sleepers are like (solo: terrible, 3 ships: no issue).


And you actually BELIEVE the devs???

Just like Incursions were going to suffer a slight nerf, and datacore income was only going to be halved, and meta 4 drops were not going to be increased.....yeah, I have total faith in what CCP says.
This is a complete disaster for drone boat operators, right across the board.

But as I posted on GD, I am waiting for the other shoe to drop when the null sec plexers scream blue murder in the high end plexes (and they rightly should), so Fox Four will fix it for null by introducing a separate slider for null sec so the AI target switching is a bare minimum, while high sec is cranked right up.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#92 - 2012-09-26 22:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Roime wrote:
It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.

Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)






ITT someone is actually silly enough to believe that mission rats are worth the same amount of ISK at the end of the day as incursion and WH rats.

wow.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#93 - 2012-09-27 02:22:00 UTC
Roime wrote:
This fixes one of the stupidest mechanics of EVE Online, and has been on my short list of dream fixes since I started playing-

"Tank & DPS" ships. It's hilariously ******** that you drop a tanking ship to a site, and then the rats just keep shooting it, and neglect all the other ships that are actually killing them. Props to CCP for fixing this!

This also means that a PVEr is not automatically worse off in case someone jumps you while running a site. In w-space attackers have to account for the sleepers, which makes it more interesting and challenging to everybody.

As what comes to drones getting aggro, it's a non-issue, especially if it's even milder than in wormholes. I've soloed C 1-3 anoms and sites in drone ships and it's perfectly doable. Yes, you have to be alert, but that's why I play, to have an immersive and involving experience. I've never worried about waiting for aggro before dropping drones, when running k-space plexes in Ishtar I always drop sentries right away, and start one-shotting frigs. By the time the poor rats realize they are getting obliterated and start locking my drones, I've done a lot of damage. Then recall them, drop again.

HP bonused drones don't instapop.

Drones today are very powerful for their raw dps, range, tracking and damage application, this change prevents drones from becoming completely OP compared to other setups in PVE.


It means is this;

The Eve economy is ****** and CCP wants more PvP deaths. They all but stated this in their QEN's. As a matter of fact they did state it, just without the F word.

So Sleepers, Incursion Sanshas, and now mission boats will have fits that induce a more PvP like setup from the player, in an effort to get them to PvP.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#94 - 2012-09-27 04:40:45 UTC
Adigard wrote:
Roime wrote:
It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.

Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)






ITT someone is actually silly enough to believe that mission rats are worth the same amount of ISK at the end of the day as incursion and WH rats.

wow.


ITT someone actually stupid enough to believe that the deciding factor in a game is virtual currency.

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2012-09-27 04:49:06 UTC
Allophyl wrote:
Roime wrote:
Take your dumb back to wow.

Not only have I never even touched wow, aggro-control mechanics have existed since the days of MUDs, many of which, if you want this to be a "EVE is so hardcore and so am I hurr durr go back to wow" pissing contest, were far less forgiving than Eve is. Enjoy your cookie-cutter fits.


My point is that this aggro-switching rat AI already exists in EVE, and most people agree it's more fun than the idiot version.

Cookie-cutter? Unlike the current cap-stable L4 fits? Empire AFK mission running, the pinnacle of innovation.

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#96 - 2012-09-27 04:54:10 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:


It means is this;

The Eve economy is ****** and CCP wants more PvP deaths. They all but stated this in their QEN's. As a matter of fact they did state it, just without the F word.

So Sleepers, Incursion Sanshas, and now mission boats will have fits that induce a more PvP like setup from the player, in an effort to get them to PvP.


That is a good motive, PvP is fun and CCP wants their customers to have as much fun as possible, instead of AFK-grinding or botting all day.

.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#97 - 2012-09-27 05:19:04 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.


I use drone ships in both wormholes and incursions without losing any.

Glad you did your research before posting.


Yes, I believe you. I must go now, Scarlett Johansson is about to give me my rubdown.
I believe my statement has as much validity as yours.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#98 - 2012-09-27 05:19:57 UTC
Roime wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:


It means is this;

The Eve economy is ****** and CCP wants more PvP deaths. They all but stated this in their QEN's. As a matter of fact they did state it, just without the F word.

So Sleepers, Incursion Sanshas, and now mission boats will have fits that induce a more PvP like setup from the player, in an effort to get them to PvP.


That is a good motive, PvP is fun and CCP wants their customers to have as much fun as possible, instead of AFK-grinding or botting all day.


Yes, it is so much fun watching your drones evaporate and watch your ISK/ hour reduced to nil.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#99 - 2012-09-27 05:39:21 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Roime wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:


It means is this;

The Eve economy is ****** and CCP wants more PvP deaths. They all but stated this in their QEN's. As a matter of fact they did state it, just without the F word.

So Sleepers, Incursion Sanshas, and now mission boats will have fits that induce a more PvP like setup from the player, in an effort to get them to PvP.


That is a good motive, PvP is fun and CCP wants their customers to have as much fun as possible, instead of AFK-grinding or botting all day.


Yes, it is so much fun watching your drones evaporate and watch your ISK/ hour reduced to nil.


They don't evaporate, and I'm referring to the full version of the new AI, not the toned down one empire rats get. You can use solo drone ships in C3 and below just FYI.

I fly a sentry Domi in wh PVE, it's an awesome ship and centerpiece of our C3 farming concept. I've lost exactly one Garde during the past seven months, and I haven't ruled out the possibility that one of us shot it by accident.

All this nerfs is AFK drone farming. Which is really good for the game, economy and the fun factor.

Sky is not falling, this is a good change.

.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#100 - 2012-09-27 11:06:13 UTC
Roime wrote:
My point is that this aggro-switching rat AI already exists in EVE, and most people agree it's more fun than the idiot version.


Because the rewards in a single L4 mission are equal to the rewards in a single C3 WH site...

the risks should be the same?

the difficulty should be the same?

Oh wait... the rewards aren't the same at all, or did CCP add ribbons to the high-sec salvage loot pool when I wasn't looking?