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NPC combat AI to be upgraded. Your thoughts?

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Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#1 - 2012-09-20 15:38:01 UTC
Missions, belts, anoms and similar are having their AI updated to include sleeper-similar target changing, based on ship signature. How will you handle this change and what are your thoughts?

Quote:

citation: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73413
forum thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155690&find=unread

snippet from the blog

Q) Will the NPC's switch targets now?
A) Yes, yes they will.

Q) Will the NPC's choose a targets of the same size, so npc frigates will first target player frigs.
A) Yes, the NPC will try and pick targets matching their own size.

Q) Will NPC's kill my drones?
A) Yes, but they don't hate them nearly as much as sleepers. I ran 9 level 4 missions and lost 2 drones. It does mean you need to pay more attention though. We can adjust their hatred of drones though which is why we are asking for feedback when this hits a test server.

Q) Will NPCs do any new ewar?
A) No. Their actual weapons and effects will not be changing.

Q) Does this change things like spawns or range activation?
A) No. When the NPC decide to start hating you is still based on the individual mission.

Q) Does this also cover DED sites, exploration sites, belt NPC, faction navies, and hauler NPC?
A) Yes. It covers everything except CONCORD.
Tarikla
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-09-20 15:49:15 UTC
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#3 - 2012-09-20 15:56:31 UTC
Tarikla wrote:
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.
I don't see active drone ships having much issue, at all. Sentry drones can be pulled in very quickly and any heavy drones that are taken out can be chalked up to what every other combat pilot experiences: Ammo cost (excluding t1, nonfaction crystals).
Tarikla
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-09-20 16:10:47 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.
I don't see active drone ships having much issue, at all. Sentry drones can be pulled in very quickly and any heavy drones that are taken out can be chalked up to what every other combat pilot experiences: Ammo cost (excluding t1, nonfaction crystals).


You assume Drones Ship are played in an active fashion ... it's not the case. Drones Ships are AFK machines, anyone who want an active ship will go for a GunBoat, much more efficient in term of damages ...

So RIP Drones Ships .
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#5 - 2012-09-20 16:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn Fatelyng
Tarikla wrote:
You assume Drones Ship are played in an active fashion ... it's not the case. Drones Ships are AFK machines, anyone who want an active ship will go for a GunBoat, much more efficient in term of damages ...

So RIP Drones Ships .
You assume I don't active play my 960 dps Rattlesnake. Or my 1.2k dps Navy Dominix.

I understand and am aware of AFK drone boats being hit by this. But not all drone boats, and not all drone pilots are afk pilots.
Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
#6 - 2012-09-20 16:21:25 UTC
Tarikla wrote:
RIP AFK Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.

Pretty much this. Can't see a change in damage or EWAR profiles, so no unexpected neuts / TD / TP etc.
Chimpy B
The Philosophy Of Two
#7 - 2012-09-20 16:28:49 UTC
I think it will somewhat hurt genuine users of drones (like myself). Yeah you can recall them and get them out again, but it takes time, especially for medium and large drones and this will cripple dps.

Sentry drones require the ship to be near them to get them in, so it means the player can't go off and kite easily.

Not saying this is a bad change, I think it's quite exciting, but it will shake things up a bit.
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#8 - 2012-09-20 16:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn Fatelyng
Chimpy B wrote:
Yeah you can recall them and get them out again, but it takes time, especially for medium and large drones and this will cripple dps.
Much like how falloff and tracking reduce turret dps, or transversal and speed reduce missile dps?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#9 - 2012-09-20 16:55:02 UTC
If the do this wrong it stand to be a huge and intense nerfing of null sec DED complexes, some of which throw insta-killer citadel torps at you.

For anomalies and such that I do, it doesn't mean anything every ship I take into an anom can tank the anom, period, hell, target switching means my machariel will take less damage in forlorn hubs, making it safer all around. I just worry about the affect this could have on 9/10 and 10/10 styled DEDs. The (slim) chance scalations from anoms to high level DEDs is part of the fun of doing anomalies, if they make them too risky I'd just have to skip em :(.....
Ginger Barbarella
#10 - 2012-09-20 17:15:18 UTC
Tarikla wrote:
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.
I don't see active drone ships having much issue, at all. Sentry drones can be pulled in very quickly and any heavy drones that are taken out can be chalked up to what every other combat pilot experiences: Ammo cost (excluding t1, nonfaction crystals).


You assume Drones Ship are played in an active fashion ... it's not the case. Drones Ships are AFK machines, anyone who want an active ship will go for a GunBoat, much more efficient in term of damages ...

So RIP Drones Ships .


Non-sense.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#11 - 2012-09-20 17:35:31 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.
I don't see active drone ships having much issue, at all. Sentry drones can be pulled in very quickly and any heavy drones that are taken out can be chalked up to what every other combat pilot experiences: Ammo cost (excluding t1, nonfaction crystals).

Not quite. Losing a drone on a drone boat would be like losing a gun on a gun boat: Your dps is down for the rest of the mission or until you dock.

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Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#12 - 2012-09-20 17:39:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn Fatelyng
Vincent Athena wrote:
Not quite. Losing a drone on a drone boat would be like losing a gun on a gun boat: Your dps is down for the rest of the mission or until you dock.
I do get what you're saying. I really do. It's the complete removal of a damage system, for drone pilots.

Now I need you to understand that there are a number of missions where if non-drone pilots don't manage their aggro correctly, our entire tank and weapon system is removed. Serpentis Blockade? Most of the dampeners are 70+k away and if webbed, closing distance for short-range weaponry can be either difficult or impossible (not all ships have room for drones) while long-range weaponry won't have the tracking to hit the dampeners once you do reach the 4-5k lock range.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#13 - 2012-09-20 17:40:28 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Chimpy B wrote:
Yeah you can recall them and get them out again, but it takes time, especially for medium and large drones and this will cripple dps.
Much like how falloff and tracking reduce turret dps, or transversal and speed reduce missile dps?

No, because drones already have to deal with tracking, falloff, and sig radius. This is a additional hit that only effects drone users and fleets. Solo gun and missile users are not affected.

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Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#14 - 2012-09-20 17:42:31 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Chimpy B wrote:
Yeah you can recall them and get them out again, but it takes time, especially for medium and large drones and this will cripple dps.
Much like how falloff and tracking reduce turret dps, or transversal and speed reduce missile dps?

No, because drones already have to deal with tracking, falloff, and sig radius. This is a additional hit that only effects drone users and fleets. Solo gun and missile users are not affected.
With one omnidriectional tracking computer my Ogre IIs can hit everything, with very few glancing shots. This includes spider drones. Two omnis means my ogres couldn't glancing hit if they wanted to.

With one module, two at most, you completely negate the small penalties that drones have. You can't do that for turrets with two tracking computers.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-09-20 17:44:41 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.
I don't see active drone ships having much issue, at all. Sentry drones can be pulled in very quickly and any heavy drones that are taken out can be chalked up to what every other combat pilot experiences: Ammo cost (excluding t1, nonfaction crystals).


Ammo cost, really? When I lose drones during combat it isn't like using up ammo. It's like losing ammo and THE GUN. Not at all the same.


Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Much like how falloff and tracking reduce turret dps, or transversal and speed reduce missile dps?


You haven't pulled in heavy drones from 35km + much have you? It is a significant amount of time where you are applying ZERO DPS. It's not like your drones fire as they are retreating.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-09-20 17:49:18 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Not quite. Losing a drone on a drone boat would be like losing a gun on a gun boat: Your dps is down for the rest of the mission or until you dock.
I do get what you're saying. I really do. It's the complete removal of a damage system, for drone pilots.

Now I need you to understand that there are a number of missions where if non-drone pilots don't manage their aggro correctly, our entire tank and weapon system is removed. Serpentis Blockade? Most of the dampeners are 70+k away and if webbed, closing distance for short-range weaponry can be either difficult or impossible (not all ships have room for drones) while long-range weaponry won't have the tracking to hit the dampeners once you do reach the 4-5k lock range.



Yea and if a drone pilot is damped and cannot lock he also cannot control the drones. Yes sometimes they will keep fighting on autopilot (possibly hitting a trigger early). Sometimes they just plain stop and sit there.

And in the future when they take aggro they will have to be recalled and then we are both in the same boat as they won't auto re-engage when re-deployed.

Bottom line is these changes are gonna suck for drone ships more than any other.
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#17 - 2012-09-20 17:49:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn Fatelyng
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Ammo cost, really? When I lose drones during combat it isn't like using up ammo. It's like losing ammo and THE GUN. Not at all the same.
When I don't pay attention and pop the wrong ship in Blockade, my primary weapon system has the potential to become completely and totally useless. Either by constant jams or a locking range so short that my guns can't hit.
Derath Ellecon wrote:
You haven't pulled in heavy drones from 35km + much have you? It is a significant amount of time where you are applying ZERO DPS. It's not like your drones fire as they are retreating.
I have, plenty. In fact, my primary ships are an active Rattlesnake and active Navy Dominix. In fact, here's a few tips for you:

  1. Don't pull in all of your drones when only one has aggro. You have skills to increase drone durability for a reason.
  2. Order your drones to engage the webbers, if one of them has your drone locked down
  3. Don't use heavy drones for targets that your Gardes can kill in a fraction of the time. Typically 20k and closer is Heavy Drone range.

Quote:
Sometimes they just plain stop and sit there.
In ten years, this has never happened to me. My drone settings are aggressive, focus fired, and so long as something is hitting me or them there's zero issue.
Quote:
And in the future when they take aggro they will have to be recalled and then we are both in the same boat as they won't auto re-engage when re-deployed.
Except you can recall them, warp out, back in and redeploy them. If we warp out and back in, we get in a volley, maybe two, before we're dampened and the damage is repaired.

edit:You're making responding to you most difficult by creating so many posts.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-09-20 17:58:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Derath Ellecon
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Quote:
Sometimes they just plain stop and sit there.
In ten years, this has never happened to me. My drone settings are aggressive, focus fired, and so long as something is hitting me or them there's zero issue.


I haven't been playing 10 years, and I have had times where my drones won't attack. And if I'm jammed out the just sit. Or I have had a new wave spawn, aggro drones, so drones get pulled, re-deploy but they wont attack because I'm still jammed.

And I honestly don't use heavies all that often specificaly because they take too long, even at 20km. But sometimes sentries become tedious as they completely kill your mobility.

And yea, I only have drone durability at 4. All other drone skills at 5 however(well not all the specs, they are at 4 too). But thanks for the tip.


Either way, same argument still stands. These NPC changes will negatively impact drone ships more than any others.


Quote:
edit:You're making responding to you most difficult by creating so many posts.


I've only made 3 posts to your 7 Lol
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#19 - 2012-09-20 18:00:42 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Not quite. Losing a drone on a drone boat would be like losing a gun on a gun boat: Your dps is down for the rest of the mission or until you dock.
I do get what you're saying. I really do. It's the complete removal of a damage system, for drone pilots.

Now I need you to understand that there are a number of missions where if non-drone pilots don't manage their aggro correctly, our entire tank and weapon system is removed. Serpentis Blockade? Most of the dampeners are 70+k away and if webbed, closing distance for short-range weaponry can be either difficult or impossible (not all ships have room for drones) while long-range weaponry won't have the tracking to hit the dampeners once you do reach the 4-5k lock range.

I do that same mission with sentry drones, and can have similar issues. Long range drones cannot track once the enemy gets close. I switch to Gardes for the close targets, but if Im damped or jammed, I cannot get the drones to attack them. Sometimes the drones will auto-aggro (if a jammer misses a cycle, then hits you again, the drones will auto aggro), but with this change Ill have to keep pulling them in and re-launching them, and then wait for them to auto-aggro, hoping that happens before they catch NPC aggro.

I can have my entire weapon system removed in 2 ways: The drones get destroyed, and by ECM coupled with drone aggro. A gun user can only have it removed one way: ECM.

Blockade is also one of those missions that shows the folly of "Launch drones, go AFK". The drones seem to love triggering additional waves early. Unless you are in a Rattler you can easily pop from those. Also new waves aggro drones. If you go afk you could easily come back to find them all gone.

Testing to see if any of this is really an issue is needed. CCP said it will not be nearly as bad a W-space. I fly a Thanny in W, so I know what sleepers are like (solo: terrible, 3 ships: no issue).

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Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#20 - 2012-09-20 18:01:32 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
These NPC changes will negatively impact drone ships more than any others.
And that is the point I can agree on.

I think it brings it more in line with what non-drone pilots have to deal with, but this patch does without a doubt impact drone ships the most.

Whether or not you agree with that, well... perhaps to each their own opinion on this one. However, you seem intelligent enough and I'd like you to convo me in-game if you ever want to talk drone mechanics. Always helpful to have people share their experiences, and perhaps show me the drone bug you spoke of.
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