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Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

First post First post First post
Author
Mund Richard
#961 - 2012-11-15 15:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Idgarad wrote:
My fear is the real impact of this is going to hit lower skill point pilots more then higher skill point pilots.

The entry level for tougher level 4s does possibly get a bit higher, both SP and drone-herding skillwise (and the rest, you need to tank the damage when you wanted to warp out, but had to recall drones that were eating the scramblers).

As for the rest, I understand the concern all too well, but...

1) Logi...
Yea, they are ****ed. Unless folk come with dps ships have a utility high with an adequete-sized remote repper. And stay close to the logi.
Which, by some sheer galactic coincidence is best done in a spider domi fleet.
Which (as one of CCP admitted) is the LEAST affected composition (besides the likes of 0mbps T3s)...
Brilliant, aint it?

2) Drones:
Sentries are in fact the easier to maintain, since they are the only one to stay inside rep/scoop range.
Still a hassle, but the easiest of the 4 subcap sizes.

Now the DPS loss due to highslots being redirected for repair, the pain in the ass to target 5 drones when a domi has a cap of 7 targets max, the dps loss when you are recalling drones, they travel to you, having them in bay so rats target you, then releasing them again, that hurts.
Possibly quite a bit.
(And ofc a Passive Rattlesnake/Ishtar/Gila doesn't really have the luxury of fitting any remote repair at all.)

But we still haven't been able to test the current version of the AI, neither the one coming out at dec 4. Maybe they'll tune it so, that drones can get agro only once 5 mins or at new waves. Roll

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Idgarad
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#962 - 2012-11-15 16:45:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Idgarad
Part of it I think is we lack a conventional aggro system like other MMOs.

TAUNT: We don't have the ability to 'taunt' NPC pilots to pull aggro off a pilot (we could with a 'Target Redirector" EWAR module that for say 1 second per skill rank redirects and locks anyone targeting the target to yourself, friend or foe).

DETAUNT: We don't have a way to really lose aggro with an NPC unless we warp out. We can jam them so they lose their targeting but they just tend to re-target the same person. We could try a new EWAR jammer mechanic that says if you are jammed by someone there is a cooldown to re-target that particular player. (Say x4 their initial locking time due to "residual effects of the jamming are slowing your targeting speed against this target..."_

e.g. Player 1 and Player 2 engage NPC A. NPC A targets and locks Player 1. Player 1 jams NPC A. Once the jamming clears NPC A is still on cooldown to target Player 1, so instead targets Player 2. Player 2 is getting is ass kicked so Player 1 targets Player 2 and hits is 'Target Redirector' and NPC A's current locks on Player 2 are switched to player 1 for X seconds (I assume he's got Rank 4 so for the next 4 seconds NPC A is stuck targeting Player 1 for example.)

This gives us, regardless of how the AI is going to work, some tools to deal with aggro management. Hell the Target Redirector could be a "Hella Fun" in pvp fleets as a new EWAR tool. Rather then Jam targets, steal the target and lock for a few seconds. Imagine targeting an enemy BS and stealing the locks from the remote reppers?! Or grabbing the locks off your logis to buy them time to MWD out of range. Or just keep it as an "Usuable only on NPCs" type EWAR module. It's a thought.
Mund Richard
#963 - 2012-11-15 22:04:35 UTC
Idgarad wrote:
Part of it I think is we lack a conventional aggro system like other MMOs.

Lack, or don't need?

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

David Gnoll
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#964 - 2012-11-17 23:36:50 UTC
Ok, so not 100% bad. I like the idea of target swapping and making the missions that use gangs a bit more tough; but this is the biggest and stupidest thing in the world for drone boats and for some really good reasons. Also, this is not just a rage post; I will show some simple ideas on how to fix it.

So first: Why is this bad for drone boats?
This should be obvious, before you could control agro if you handled it properly and your drones may never have been shot at. Now they will swap targets to your drones and you will need to constantly pull them back. Some testers have said "Well, I just pulled them back from time to time when they get shot, it's not a big deal." The problem is that the VAST majority of people have found it quite aggravating. I'm not saying that we should all have an easy AFK mission run game, but this is a disadvantage that is so disproportionate that it blows my mind.

~If you are SOLOing a mission and running a Raven, is agro EVER an issue? NO! Because you are the only target.
~If you are running a mission solo and in a Raven, can agro swapping kill your missile launchers? NO
~If you are running a mission solo and in a Raven, can even your missiles be stopped by agro? NO

There is no disadvantage to ANY ship in the game with this change. (other than their ability to use drones as supplemental damage).

CCP has worked hard to create drones as a PRIMARY form of damage for some ships in this game and now they are effectively BREAKING THEM! Every call back is time my ship is doing under 200 dps for that whole travel time. Every time they are going back to the target is the same thing. Trying to recall heavy drones? GOOD LUCK! In the dev forum they posted that they ran 9 missions and lost only 2 drones so it's no big deal; however at 600,000 + per drone PLUS ammo cost for the hybrid guns, that is a heavy hit to the runner on top of the fact that it will make them take twice as long to finish missions.

I know I'm going to get the "But...but...they are doing it to stop AFK farming in drone boats! I don't want my game to be an AFK farm fest!!"

Neither do I, but you know what it is that allows them to afk farm? IT IS NOT DRONE AGRO IT IS AUTO ACQUISITION OF TARGETS! You want an easy way to stop afk drone farming without KILLING drone boats? Remove the god damn 'aggressive' stance on drone and make them be ordered to attack just like EVERY SINGLE OTHER PRIMARY WEAPON SYSTEM IN EVE ONLINE! Use your brains devs please.

So fixes to this are:
1: Remove drone aggressive stance
2: Don't let enemies randomly swap to your drones as a target because it's just stupid. No other weapon type in eve has this issue. (and drones don't yet either, but they want to give it to you)

That is all. Get your heads out of your asses.

P.S. I would challenge any that read this to give me a good list as to why it is beneficial to have drones targeted by NPC ships at random in solo mission runs. Please....

EDIT: Here is the dev blog on the new AI btw http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73413
Mund Richard
#965 - 2012-11-18 20:34:09 UTC
David Gnoll wrote:

So fixes to this are:
1: Remove drone aggressive stance
2: Don't let enemies randomly swap to your drones as a target because it's just stupid. No other weapon type in eve has this issue. (and drones don't yet either, but they want to give it to you)

How does #1 have any effect?
I mean, in a droneboat, when are your drones not shooting/flying towards a target? Besides when you recall them due to agro, or not having more targets.

Second one... Well, obviously it would be a huge boon, but we did have somewhat similar things even before (proximity agro, new waves, weird missions). Only mostly not all the time.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Miss Silv
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#966 - 2012-11-20 23:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss Silv
Mund Richard wrote:
David Gnoll wrote:

So fixes to this are:
1: Remove drone aggressive stance
2: Don't let enemies randomly swap to your drones as a target because it's just stupid. No other weapon type in eve has this issue. (and drones don't yet either, but they want to give it to you)

How does #1 have any effect?
I mean, in a droneboat, when are your drones not shooting/flying towards a target? Besides when you recall them due to agro, or not having more targets.

Second one... Well, obviously it would be a huge boon, but we did have somewhat similar things even before (proximity agro, new waves, weird missions). Only mostly not all the time.


#1. Specifically between the waves in plexes, so that 23/7 AFK plexers are dead in the water until they tell the drones to go for the new spawn. Which looks like what the devs are trying to address, but screwing regular missioners in the process.

#2. Thing is, all of the things that you mentioned are manageable (strategically picking off groups/sacrificing dps for tank while taking out triggers e.t.c), whereas the only way to manage the new change is to strap your eyelids onto the tiny drone health bars and hover above the recall shortcut. Sounds like fun, eh?
Jipouille
H.R.F.
#967 - 2012-11-21 11:55:45 UTC
did eve developpers upgraded life status refresh of the drones and red underline to see that they are beeing fired on ?

if not the drones wont be used anymore.
DSpite Culhach
#968 - 2012-12-05 01:43:10 UTC
No offence everyone, but one of my main annoyances is the fact that Smartbombs would be much more useful with these new changes (for me anyway) but theres still the very silly fact that CONCORD will magically appear on grid because you accidently clipped a gate/can/wreck/whatever and blew you up only because you were trying to defend yourself.

Why cant we just get a Smartbomb system that WONT fire when a dangerous object is SCANNED within range? That sounds like a real "Smartbomb" to me.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.

Mund Richard
#969 - 2012-12-05 02:16:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
DSpite Culhach wrote:
Why cant we just get a Smartbomb system that WONT fire when a dangerous object is SCANNED within range? That sounds like a real "Smartbomb" to me.

Or just rename smartbombs. Roll
Something like [EM/Plasma/Shockwave/Fission] Shockwave Generator. Makes it clear that it's not something nice. More OOMPH to the name, sounds awesomer than it is (and should).

No, seriously, how good would them being smart be for missions, if you are scram/webbed down to 4m/s (did happen to me), gate-warping in on a second gate at 0, and having the whole room on you?
By the time you pull enough distance, you can make three posts here, a cup of Tea in the Kitchen, and take out the garbage.
Also, needs a highslot and crazy cap amounts, not many ships can pull it off without severe sacrifice
Easier to have a web, and take your chances with the new AI hating it (plus the dps you apply to battleships) more than your freshly released drones.

And I haven't even touched on targets you have NOT scanned, like an SB that scans you down just as you manage to warp out, cloaks up, waits for you to get back and bomb...
Not likely to happen?
Depends how much bling you run with.
Then again, people running smartbombs in blinged ships deserve it.

How about a more realistic scenario, ninja salvager warping in on you at zero while you run your SB? Turn away to look at your mug of coffee, or while you tab to come here and make a post how the new AI is a bunch of bollocks, and in less than half Concorde nails you.
Man... now suddenly I want to make an alt...

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Solutio Letum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#970 - 2012-12-05 14:22:30 UTC
i got a better idea, learn how to do missions in lowsec? hows that for one

1. make more isk
2. dont risk a ship
3. can stay even safer while running smartbombs

if you learn how to dscan everything is possible even better, if you learn how to watch local you can even do them with a war in a highsec system, is that not fun? knowing stuff is fun right!
Suddiez
Random Casualties
#971 - 2012-12-05 17:43:21 UTC
David Gnoll wrote:
Get your heads out of your asses.

That's the first thing to do CCP about new NPC AI.

Flying billions fitted ship with all skills five'd, launch your drones, then scoop back to avoid their destruction and now all the NPC groups in the pocket, that will normally should just fly around, will switch at you and start firing. No armor tank can stand against it. Even more funny with two or three warp disruption effects on you.

Get your heads out of the asses. Think, then do, CCP.

erased

Macaya
Little Builders
#972 - 2012-12-06 04:21:25 UTC
What a sh1t PVE update...

Caldari are more cr@p than they ever have been.

Concept of NPC AI was OK but the whole killing ma drones shiz, is getting old real quick.

Game was just changed massively overnight and the loot from drops in 8/10 9/10 & 10/10's are still worthless even thou they are much harder now and more time consuming.

Exploration sites seem to have had a nerf Shocked

CCP you have lost your way..
Solutio Letum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#973 - 2012-12-06 10:46:09 UTC
Macaya wrote:
What a **** PVE update...

Caldari are more cr@p than they ever have been.

Concept of NPC AI was OK but the whole killing ma drones ****, is getting old real quick.

Game was just changed massively overnight and the loot from drops in 8/10 9/10 & 10/10's are still worthless even thou they are much harder now and more time consuming.

Exploration sites seem to have had a nerf Shocked

CCP you have lost your way..


thats why i suggest to add something to make drones repair when there in the drone bay, like a actual drone in the drone bay that would repair one of your drone, ofc you still ge tthem damaged thats the POINT of taking missiles compared to drones
Imuran
Zentor Industries
#974 - 2012-12-06 15:58:31 UTC
Quote:
Q) Does this change things like spawns or range activation?
A) No. When the NPC decide to start hating you is still based on the individual mission.


I am seeing reports of whole room aggro in some missions now as opposed to staged aggro - so this no longer appears true
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#975 - 2012-12-07 11:20:51 UTC
Imuran wrote:
Quote:
Q) Does this change things like spawns or range activation?
A) No. When the NPC decide to start hating you is still based on the individual mission.


I am seeing reports of whole room aggro in some missions now as opposed to staged aggro - so this no longer appears true


You are correct, that is a bug, fix is incoming.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

vasuul
BLUE M00N Fetish Group
#976 - 2012-12-07 12:30:06 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Imuran wrote:
Quote:
Q) Does this change things like spawns or range activation?
A) No. When the NPC decide to start hating you is still based on the individual mission.


I am seeing reports of whole room aggro in some missions now as opposed to staged aggro - so this no longer appears true


You are correct, that is a bug, fix is incoming.


fix is incoming, Good the question is when ?

also would it be possible to turn off the warp scram capability on the bugged rats until said fix is in place ???
I mean getting hammered is one thing ,being glued to the floor While its happening is quite another

especially since the scramblers are frig sized and to kill them usually requires the use of drones which we all know will get instapopped the moment they launch with whole room aggro
Kithran
#977 - 2012-12-07 12:46:18 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Imuran wrote:
Quote:
Q) Does this change things like spawns or range activation?
A) No. When the NPC decide to start hating you is still based on the individual mission.


I am seeing reports of whole room aggro in some missions now as opposed to staged aggro - so this no longer appears true


You are correct, that is a bug, fix is incoming.


Has the cause been tracked down or would more information (e.g. exactly which missions where npc aggro is different to pre-retribution and how it is different - I know at least one where it has changed however it is not the case of full room aggro).

Kithran
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#978 - 2012-12-07 13:11:20 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Imuran wrote:
Quote:
Q) Does this change things like spawns or range activation?
A) No. When the NPC decide to start hating you is still based on the individual mission.


I am seeing reports of whole room aggro in some missions now as opposed to staged aggro - so this no longer appears true


You are correct, that is a bug, fix is incoming.


Will NPC's in missions and complexes be switching targets based on a new A.I. system or will it all go back to normal then?

Not today spaghetti.

Roccus
Volanti Imperium
#979 - 2012-12-07 23:51:54 UTC
Hi all, i love the fact that u guys try to make pve more of a challenge :)

But for some reason drones are hard to use now couse they been targeted right away by frigs npc at any given time (even after recalling and releasing) and if u got a swarm on u then its a pain to kill the one that is scramming you...

Its nice that it all get harder but it should still be possible to use drones propperly as frig countermessures. So in my eyes the new AI likes to pop drones a bit to much.

Thanks for your attention.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#980 - 2012-12-08 02:35:03 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Imuran wrote:
Quote:
Q) Does this change things like spawns or range activation?
A) No. When the NPC decide to start hating you is still based on the individual mission.


I am seeing reports of whole room aggro in some missions now as opposed to staged aggro - so this no longer appears true


You are correct, that is a bug, fix is incoming.


Just to be cynical for a moment, after having the code in various stages of testing for something akin to two and a half months... was the code tweaked after the last round of player testing, thus... giving us this wonderful new bug? It does sound like the sort of thing we would have noticed during the tests. So I'm curious.