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Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

First post First post First post
Author
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#461 - 2012-09-22 05:04:55 UTC
Great stuff!

.

Starakus
Shrouded in secret
#462 - 2012-09-22 05:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Starakus
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I am entertained at all the crying over this.
Everyone always likes to claim Eve is 'harder than other MMO's'.
Welcome to Agro Mechanics 101 guys, something everyone in all those other 'Easy' MMO's has been dealing with for years.
Will it change things, sure and CCP will then have to rebalance other things going forward, but congratulations, you have gotten your wish about Eve becoming a 'harder' game. Now stop crying and enjoy your harder game. So 10/10 DED complexes no longer are LOL fests but are risky and might result in wipes? Well, prices for loot only available in them will rise to match over time, supply and demand. You now have some challenges to fight. Enjoy!


I am entertained by your willingness to go to an EverQuest® or WOW® aggro management system. I laughed so hard at how you think aggro mechanics makes things HARDER. EVE is not a hard game at all to master other than keeping up with constant needless changes, I had played harder MUDS. In fact aggro mechanics are very predictable and boring.
There will never be an AI that will make PVE equal to PVP, never in this lifetime at least. I thought we were suppose to be doing PVP not PVE if that was the push, but as mentioned some ninja and pirate work will go down with this too.

Sure lets go to an agrro management system so we can sit around for hours looking for a tank or a healer (repper) like we did 15 years ago. So if your tired of sitting on a gate, listening to your FC, or a rage from your corp about how you don't spend ever waking hour serving them, you can't even escape to high-sec or solo PVP because you now have to have a group to do anything.
Its a free country here but only the way "we want you to live it" and this sandbox is slowly becoming "its a sandbox, but your going to play it how we want you to".
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#463 - 2012-09-22 08:01:14 UTC
Wonderful.
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#464 - 2012-09-22 08:12:21 UTC
Another ISK nerf.
Naomi Reiku
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#465 - 2012-09-22 08:57:06 UTC

I like it. :)

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#466 - 2012-09-22 09:34:58 UTC
Apparently some posters post before thinking.
They 'think' that it's some nerf ( deserved or not ) to hisec missioning making them harder to farm.

What are the most popular ships for L4 missions?
- Caldari Missile Boats ( Drake, Tengu, CNR and SNI )
- Pirate Battleships ( Machariel and Nightmare )
- Marauders
- Dominix ( Sentries + Rails )
- Rattlesnake ( Sentries + Cruise )
- AFK Dominix ( Sentries + remote reps )

Will those AI changes influence the most popular boats used for missioning?
No. Nothing will change here.

Missile Boats - unaffected
Pirate Battleships - unaffected
Marauders - unaffected
Sentry Dominix - unaffected
Sentry Rattlesnake - unaffected
AFK Dominix - probably unaffected ( depends on how many rats can target your drones at the same time )

What will it affect :
- pvp in pve environment ( hunting ratters and plexers, makes bombers ( and probably recons ) useless for this kind of pvp )
- mobile drone boats ( if your drones can be webbed then it will make those ships practically useless in pve, you will be forced to use only sentries )
- nullsec group plexing ( high end DEDs, we all know nullsec needs a nerf in that areaRoll )
Lady Hanguko
Koho Exploitation Corporation
#467 - 2012-09-22 10:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Hanguko
More difficult npc is all nice and dandy, but will its not also kill the missioning as a form of income? If AI becomes such, that the only way to do a lvl4 is with a group, then, unless bounties and rewards increase to compensate, this kills already one of the lowest PvE income professions. On a side note, a number of folks already mentioned it, then if ever or at all new High Sec PvE content made ? Many of us will never go and live full time in 0s no matter how attractive u make it. to be a full time PvP pilot every single day is just not a thing every1 dies to do. i visit 0s for trade and an occasional roam or for a strange desire to get a solo kill. But i cant see my self living in 0s full time period. Give us new toys here in High, new missions, new things... Content. Ai by it self is not a very meaningfull content addition.
Josef Djugashvilis
#468 - 2012-09-22 10:44:37 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Apparently some posters post before thinking.
They 'think' that it's some nerf ( deserved or not ) to hisec missioning making them harder to farm.

What are the most popular ships for L4 missions?
- Caldari Missile Boats ( Drake, Tengu, CNR and SNI )
- Pirate Battleships ( Machariel and Nightmare )
- Marauders
- Dominix ( Sentries + Rails )
- Rattlesnake ( Sentries + Cruise )
- AFK Dominix ( Sentries + remote reps )

Will those AI changes influence the most popular boats used for missioning?
No. Nothing will change here.

Missile Boats - unaffected
Pirate Battleships - unaffected
Marauders - unaffected
Sentry Dominix - unaffected
Sentry Rattlesnake - unaffected
AFK Dominix - probably unaffected ( depends on how many rats can target your drones at the same time )

What will it affect :
- pvp in pve environment ( hunting ratters and plexers, makes bombers ( and probably recons ) useless for this kind of pvp )
- mobile drone boats ( if your drones can be webbed then it will make those ships practically useless in pve, you will be forced to use only sentries )
- nullsec group plexing ( high end DEDs, we all know nullsec needs a nerf in that areaRoll )


It appears that you are labouring under the mistaken impression that Dominix mission runners do not use Hammers, Hobs and Ogres.

This is not a signature.

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#469 - 2012-09-22 11:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tomcio FromFarAway
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:

It appears that you are labouring under the mistaken impression that Dominix mission runners do not use Hammers, Hobs and Ogres.


I said 'the most popular' boats. Ogre Dominix isn't exactly popular and on sentry Domi you are using mobile drones to kill rats when they get too close ( using sentries is still much more effective when those rats are in the med/long range ) and recalling drones from close ranges is not a problem.

Also I said :

Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:

What will it affect :
...
- mobile drone boats ( if your drones can be webbed then it will make those ships practically useless in pve, you will be forced to use only sentries )
...


Heavy drone Dominix is a 'mobile drone boat' so I'm not 'labouring under the mistaken impression' Blink
The only problem for those boats will be the webbing when you use mobile drones in long range ( which I pointed out in my previous posts ) but this is only a matter of tweaking webs used by rats currently ( so that they won't work on drones, which I also pointed out in previous posts ).

I have been referring to posters who are saying about 'killing missioning' or 'obsoleting Gallente'.
Those are all exaggerations and that is my point.
Zedrich Ederech
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#470 - 2012-09-22 11:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zedrich Ederech
If there are suggestion i would make, a custom AI rule template for each and every mission would be great, so as to allow for individual mission tweaking.
If that is not possible (I can guess that it will take a LOT of work) is to make a sort of 'AI Sub-Level Difficulty' for each group of missions.
Mission Agent-given 'Combat' missions - NPC aggression profiles

Level 1's are left either untouched or have far lower chances of NPCs switching targets.

Apply these to level 2 and higher missions: (adjust percentages as appropriate for other things such as DED Complex Threat Levels, anoms, etc.)
60-70% priority in targeting player ships that first appear, as well as any that directly shoot, damage or any EWAR used on them
REPEAT ABOVE for any ship that appears afterward
15-25% will target anyone else on field - limit this as stated below
5-20% will target any drones


In addition, the aggression percentages must be based on whether the ships in question have offensive modules or not. Obviously, the player ships that are fully packed with guns get highest aggression priority.

There's also the issue with logistics ships suddenly getting yellowboxed by every other rat - a special aggression priority monitor should be put for ships with remote repper mods and repper drones alike, allowing for less rats than what would go after a ship fitted for dealing damage - and optimally, they also get damaged though not as much as offense-armed ships.
The goal is to make flying logistics more than just fly in and rep fleet members - has to be with the addition of flying transversal, running hardeners and reppers(or broadcasting for reps), and not taking too much damage in a short period of time that they have to warp out every minute. Yes, there are players multiboxing two alts, and one of them flies a barebones-just-got-there logistics ship - and ideally, what one would want is to make it challenging as to pay attention to what you are doing, but not make it useless to even fly a logistics ship in the first place - at least on intermediate difficulty levels - which is usually some L3s and most L4s.
(if you are a bittervet, have more than 15 million skillpoints or just hate the new players, or players working for their ISK (to PLEX their accounts) the way they want to AND actively doing so, or players not adhering to the playstyle you are trying to impose on them in the sandbox, don't waste your time making a negative, nonconstructive reply to this, as your post will be ignored)
Also, optimally, NPCs should be looking to find a target of the same size as they are, but with variance. This comes into play when there is more than one ship doing the mission. And yes, unwelcome guests get to be primaried by rats - they deserve it, both for being uninvited and for barging in hoping to make a quick killmail or grab some other player's hard earned lootdrops. But of course it shouldn't be all of them - it be best to keep a ratio of number of rats per additional player on grid, with an equal spread of ships across but modified for the incoming player's ship class (repeating the finding something their own size part here).

Ideally, L1 should be good for introduction to missioning without the complications, L2 and L3 are more of adding progressive strategies and ways of adapting to increased difficulty, and a few L3s and most L4s are either a challenge to solo or have to be done with a friend or two to complete them efficiently, or to at least not lose their ship in the process.
Same thing with other NPC-based combat activities.


I also agree with a revamp to the drone UI - can always add a (Launch Drone Group>[dropdown list of drone groups]) to the context menu as well as making the drone launch hotkey assignable to launching a prespecified drone group.


One of the problems I myself have had to deal with in the past 5 months or so have had to do with mission difficulty as well as ship performance-related skill levels needed to do higher level missions than what i could do solo. Part of it was having to deal with the difficulty of getting better npc corp standings boosts with lower level missions i can barely solo without losing a ship to rats - and have thus adapted with an alt squadron.

But we all know not everyone has the capability to fund said squad and thus have to either wait a month or so skilling up tank, gunnery etc. if they hope to have a ghost of a chance, ask a friend or two (none here where i am) or perhaps a corp member - most players are either antisocial, embarrassed or otherwise don't like the idea of having to either split mission rewards or owe a favor to someone else just to complete a Blockade they lose a ship to every time - this applies to NPC corporations only though, but that is where the majority of new, casual or otherwise solo kind of players are.
LuckyQuarter
Eden Dominion Coalition
Scary Wormhole People
#471 - 2012-09-22 12:07:06 UTC
I'm fine with making the NPC AI's more difficult, but if it is going to impact drone boats....especially shield tanked myrms with heavies....than this pushes up the importance of revamping the whole drone system. Drones have been almost nothing but nerfed or ignored since they were introduced. Yes, there is a new damage module but I'm not seeing that as very useful for the ships I fly...and if you're making the npc's more dangerous to drones...then the t2 drone link extenders also become less useful...so perhaps as part of this roll out, find a way to a) make drones more intelligent themselves to compensate and b) make using drones more fun so that the extra time required to use drones (less gank) is tolerable....sometimes using drone boat involves mission time being twice other fits...you will get a bunch of tears if this time is spent doing nothing but recalling and sending out drones over and over....
Ushagar
Conquest of Spaces
#472 - 2012-09-22 13:26:20 UTC
you better do dronreg balance.

Do not spoil the hard life and so those who like drones.
xXxNIMRODxXx
Arial Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#473 - 2012-09-22 14:09:23 UTC
no, i don't welcome (partially) this change. Just because of 1 mission. And if you do this change, you gotta nerf this mission.

Enemies Abound 5 of 5

Too many minmatar ships spawn in that mission at a rate wich is impossible to solo in a Battleship.
The end dealing damage is 3300+ dps once all of them are spawned, impossible to be tanked.

So what i do to run this mission is to use 2 accounts, one that gets all the aggro, initially, with pure dps fit, and the second that reps me, pure rep.
Once the second gets target by next waves of spawns, if i can make it to kill the rats, both stays, if i don't, both leaves, and come back when everything has spawned, so get the aggro with 1, rep with 2nd.


And that's the only way to do it in less than 2-3 HOURS, by tanking it alone, and not risking to loose my ship, because soloing this means: hardeners hardeners hardeners hardeners hardeners, and no buffer to dmg = longer time to reload, lesser damage, rats rep themselves way too fast, you end shooting endlessly at the same time making the mission last too much time.

It is the only mission that drops minmatar's tags at least in amarr space, and is almost completely impossible to do alone.

The Assault against Guristas too i find it difficult to be done with only amarr race weapons, cause it takes a lot of time and they punch a lot and jam too, not to talk about Dreap Pirate Scarlet, last room is difficult when you encounter Angels, or Worlds Collide that is already impossible to be run alone, or Angel Extravaganza bonus room, where a complete army of Angels just aggro you in one microsecond and deal an incredible amount of damage that can't be tanked without remote rep.

And i'm talking about using a BS, cause that's what level 4 should be made for. Ppl shouldn't need a tier 3 ship to run lvl 4s, in my opinion. But that's the trend, nerf the rewards, buffer the difficulty.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

OFC, you never listen to us.



Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#474 - 2012-09-22 15:18:21 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I am entertained at all the crying over this.
Everyone always likes to claim Eve is 'harder than other MMO's'.
Welcome to Agro Mechanics 101 guys, something everyone in all those other 'Easy' MMO's has been dealing with for years.
Will it change things, sure and CCP will then have to rebalance other things going forward, but congratulations, you have gotten your wish about Eve becoming a 'harder' game. Now stop crying and enjoy your harder game. So 10/10 DED complexes no longer are LOL fests but are risky and might result in wipes? Well, prices for loot only available in them will rise to match over time, supply and demand. You now have some challenges to fight. Enjoy!
I'd like to add in here that loot drops in the DED 10/10 plexes aren't always that great and sometimes only result in rat bounties and an overseer's tag, <200M.

That barely covers the cost of a well-fit logistics ship and the pod piloting it should either or both be lost.

Split that ~200M, say, 3 ways and it isn't worth the time and risk to pimped ships to run the complex.

As I have written before, the rewards from these ultimate, end-game complexes need to be consistently better should a NPC AI improvement be implemented.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.

xXxNIMRODxXx
Arial Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#475 - 2012-09-22 15:20:58 UTC
and by chance, any way that you can add a simple command to the mining drones to engage with hotkey the asteroids, like normal drones do against the rest? cause actually I STILL have to use the mouse to tell mining drones "go mine that roid".

furthermore, missions are so nerfed on the reward size, that actually you have to beg someone to come along with you and play them, cause he knows it's just a pure loss of time. The funny part of doing missions in group relies only on bitchtalking about how useless is doing missions right now to make money out of them, especially after you ALSO increased the salvage a salvager can get from a wreck (that, brought the prices of salvaged materials to a useless state of doing that job, cause now for example i gotta collect salvaging 3, 4 times more to make the same amount of money i could make before).
No big reward, no interest.
You nerfed the bounties of rats, we do missions only for the LPs, and guess what? If you do change the AI to engage your partners occasionally, collecting tags in missions that will also hit your standings, will become even more uninteresting.
The risk, compared to the reward, will be, honestly, even worse than now, and this will make ppl want to do something else instead of risking their ship running something that is already broken now, imagine it after!

Do you think we NOW play missions for fun? Seriously? They are non-sense, their only purpose is to collect standings toward a corp or a faction, LPs, tags and storyline missions, and that's it.

And from long time, we do this ALONE. I remember clearly when it was funny to do this as a group cause it was very profitable, especially the salvaging, we were used to go run missions in pack and ask around for a salvager if there wasn't one that could do that.

Now, it's just a job for the LP store. A job that needs a single person, not a group.
Ragnarok Knight
ROGUE - DRONES
#476 - 2012-09-22 15:41:41 UTC
i know this is an improvement, but i do love clocking lvl4's in two domi's. Twisted
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#477 - 2012-09-22 16:20:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
whatever you do CCP, dont nerf any pvp with your f*cking pve content, which will suck anyway regardless of what you do with it, it will still remain repetitive, boring, systematic bracket shooting, all you can do is adding annoying aspects on top of everything else like constant drone aggro or more ecm.
Orizabus subaziro
496th State Defence Division
#478 - 2012-09-22 16:36:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Orizabus subaziro
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Apparently some posters post before thinking.
They 'think' that it's some nerf ( deserved or not ) to hisec missioning making them harder to farm.

What will it affect :
- pvp in pve environment ( hunting ratters and plexers, makes bombers ( and probably recons ) useless for this kind of pvp )
- mobile drone boats ( if your drones can be webbed then it will make those ships practically useless in pve, you will be forced to use only sentries )
- nullsec group plexing ( high end DEDs, we all know nullsec needs a nerf in that areaRoll )


qft.

This change must be made very carefully:
- Ninja salvaging oder harassment of missionrunners should still be possible.
- 0.0 complexes should still be doable without everyone having to be able to tank 3k dps.
- FW missions should still be doable in frig-sized ships, anything else is just not valid when you have to do your PvE in lowsec in a beacon everyone can see.


edit: Drones are hella annoying to use in PvE even now. Either they die in a fire whenever a respawn comes in or you have to stand around and babysit your sentrys when that Machariel/Tengu can approach the next gate at the same time without losing damage. Don't make this even worse.
Xenuria
#479 - 2012-09-22 16:54:42 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
A welcome change. This should close up loopholes used by AFK domis, and people doing FW missions with a speedtanking frig/bomber pair.


Why is it every time I come out with something for my CSM 8 platform, CCP ends up releasing a dev blog or announcing a fix that resolves 1 or more of the core issues expressed in said platform?

Dollars to Donuts, If I make a my CSM platform about why eve needs fedoras and other hats within 2 weeks CCP is going to announce the hats expansion.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#480 - 2012-09-22 17:36:52 UTC
I must say, I'm a bit confused about all these “onoz, drone boat!” complaints.

Drones can be (and are being) used just fine against the new AI — it's just a different type of aggro management than before. Drones are employed in w-space and in incursions as we speak and they're doing fine.

Also, why on earth would anyone ever use heavies (except maybe 'zerkers) in missions? They are useless as it is and this change does not affect that in any way whatsoever. Hell, even medium drones are often quite unnecessary, so the only (slight) worry is light drones to kill off ewar frigates, but even then, they can be kept alive by the aforementioned aggro management.

Yes, people, you will have to learn one new tactic. It is not the end of the world, nor is it the end of your drone ships.
Pablo Nerdfighter wrote:
How about fixing npc ECM?
They did that ages ago (and even then, tests had shown that it wasn't as broken as people thought it was).