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Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

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Bubanni
Primal Instinct Inc.
The Initiative.
#401 - 2012-09-21 11:40:20 UTC
Will ewar become useful in this pve your working on?

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Lord Okinaba
Aliastra
#402 - 2012-09-21 11:42:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Okinaba
I don't see this an an improvement at all. It's just a nerf to drone boats, which are already at a disadvantage compared to every other ship.
Carcopino
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#403 - 2012-09-21 11:46:29 UTC
I've been reading some pretty funny comments coming from self-styled pvpers who are now afraid that they might actually have to face npc fire while they're attacking some random mission runner.
Sorry, but LOL.

As for these weird proposed changes ... well, I don't even know where to begin.
Touting this npc ai upgrade as some kind of kick-ass big feature is kinda lame in my opinion.

How about you go and add more missions, improve existing ones, add more epic arcs, plex sites, give some function to dead npc factions/corporations or whatever ?.
Now THAT would be worth writing home about.
Hell, even getting rid of npcs getting stuck on various clutter or bumping away at supersonic speed would do a whole lot more good.

Bah.
Roll
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#404 - 2012-09-21 11:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Carcopino wrote:
I've been reading some pretty funny comments coming from self-styled pvpers who are now afraid that they might actually have to face npc fire while they're attacking some random mission runner.
Sorry, but LOL.

there is nothing about "self-styling", as soon as you engage another player its pvp, regardless of whatever he's doing even with a shitfit pve ship. In fact, bears becoming even more safe in 0.0 anomalies/plexes in already too safe place like 0.0 is a serious problem and very one sided.
I dont know if you ever tried to catch a ratter in 0.0, but this has become a ridiculously hard task and a lot of pvp already prior landing your first shot at all.

This patch would remove a big part of risk for 0.0 bears and a big part of pvp - hunting and shooting ratters is apart of sov shiit battes a major part of it, whether you like it or not - while it doesnt introduce any other kind of pvp in return, hence its reducing amount of pvp in eve, which cant be a good thing regardless of everything else.
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#405 - 2012-09-21 12:03:00 UTC
Well, look at that! I've been hoping/waiting quite a long time for this change. Missions might actually get interesting again! Thanks for listening to the players on this one.

Reading about the changes, or more specifically the consequences to the behavior of the rats, I'm a bit worried about one thing that might be a bit out of the ordinary.

"Bring a noob to L4"-day in EVE
Occasionally I like to bring newer players (maybe less than a month old or so) along to do a few level 4s. It's a good way for them to bring up their standings and see what the missions are like. My worry is now that he/she won't be able to do much because of how the NPCs choose targets. As far as I can tell there hasn't been any (official) information as to how the ewar is handled in regards to target selection, so lacking that I can only speculate (or ask). Quite a few Serpentis missions have quite heavy damps (I think examples are The Assault and The Blockade), capable of dampening a BS down to 5 km targeting range or so. Since these damps come primarily from [elite?] cruiser-sized vessels (Guardian Chief and the like), does this mean that my noob friend in his thorax/vexor will get the full force of these as he has roughly in the same sigsize, leaving him with a kilometer targeting range (at the most)? Will they split their damps? Is it just luck what happens?
I can't go test this as I don't happen to have a noob handy to test it with me Roll but I'm sure you guys at CCP could put an appropriate test together quite easily... Cool
Carcopino
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#406 - 2012-09-21 12:10:33 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:

there is nothing about "self-styling", as soon as you engage another player its pvp, regardless of whatever he's doing even with a shitfit pve ship. In fact, bears becoming even more safe in 0.0 anomalies/plexes in already too safe place like 0.0 is a serious problem and very one sided.
I dont know if you ever tried to catch a ratter in 0.0, but this has become a ridiculously hard task and a lot of pvp already prior landing your first shot at all.

This patch would remove a big part of risk for 0.0 bears and a big part of pvp - hunting and shooting ratters is apart of sov shiit battes a major part of it, whether you like it or not - while it doesnt introduce any other kind of pvp in return, hence its reducing amount of pvp in eve, which cant be a good thing regardless of everything else.


Look, I don't mean to belittle your efforts or anything like that, I understand that hunting down fellas in enemy controlled space is a warfare tool and a risky activity.

What is amusing to me, though, is the thought that, for some reason, the npcs should spare the mission-guy hunter. That would be kinda difficult to justify..What would be more fun that both hunter and victim having to warp away in pods due to npc wrath?.
P
Li Charen-Teng
#407 - 2012-09-21 12:29:33 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
This patch would remove a big part of risk for 0.0 bears and a big part of pvp - hunting and shooting ratters is apart of sov shiit battes a major part of it, whether you like it or not - while it doesnt introduce any other kind of pvp in return, hence its reducing amount of pvp in eve, which cant be a good thing regardless of everything else.


Harassing an enemy in their ratting ground is a valid tactic and over the last cpl years it became harder and harder to catch somebody in either a belt or anomaly due to the simple fact that there are alot less people doing it now since the risk/reward of null-sec is terrible to Incursions/FW. And let's be honest about it: I did solo/small gank in null-sec over years and the best solo roaming ships out there just have enough dps to kill a ratter when there is actually npc damage on it.

Checking EVE GATE every few minutes...
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#408 - 2012-09-21 12:31:46 UTC
El 'Terrible wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
argleblargle wrote:
in addition to making gallente less useful for PVE ...


How are these changes going to make gallante less useful?

You're going to have to keep recalling drones if they get aggression.


Oh no Shocked you mean we will actually have to pay attention and play the game?! Roll

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
darius mclever
#409 - 2012-09-21 12:32:13 UTC
Alexandr Archer wrote:
CPP.How about module that repair drones/figthers on board of ship?


you mean like remote armor repair or shield transporter?
Despana
Perkone
Caldari State
#410 - 2012-09-21 12:35:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Despana
Robert Caldera wrote:
Carcopino wrote:
I've been reading some pretty funny comments coming from self-styled pvpers who are now afraid that they might actually have to face npc fire while they're attacking some random mission runner.
Sorry, but LOL.

there is nothing about "self-styling", as soon as you engage another player its pvp, regardless of whatever he's doing even with a shitfit pve ship. In fact, bears becoming even more safe in 0.0 anomalies/plexes in already too safe place like 0.0 is a serious problem and very one sided.
I dont know if you ever tried to catch a ratter in 0.0, but this has become a ridiculously hard task and a lot of pvp already prior landing your first shot at all.

This patch would remove a big part of risk for 0.0 bears and a big part of pvp - hunting and shooting ratters is apart of sov shiit battes a major part of it, whether you like it or not - while it doesnt introduce any other kind of pvp in return, hence its reducing amount of pvp in eve, which cant be a good thing regardless of everything else.


Li Charen-Teng wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
This patch would remove a big part of risk for 0.0 bears and a big part of pvp - hunting and shooting ratters is apart of sov shiit battes a major part of it, whether you like it or not - while it doesnt introduce any other kind of pvp in return, hence its reducing amount of pvp in eve, which cant be a good thing regardless of everything else.


Harassing an enemy in their ratting ground is a valid tactic and over the last cpl years it became harder and harder to catch somebody in either a belt or anomaly due to the simple fact that there are alot less people doing it now since the risk/reward of null-sec is terrible to Incursions/FW. And let's be honest about it: I did solo/small gank in null-sec over years and the best solo roaming ships out there just have enough dps to kill a ratter when there is actually npc damage on it.


Despana wrote:
I can't believe so many people actually HAPPY about this changes....

How about you will turn on your brains before you post something in here and make CCP think they are on the right path?


Let me tell you why I will quit this game if this changes will go live:

I play eve since 2004 and I am not a big fan of gangs, fleets etc.
Because this game is sandbox, it gives us free choice what to do. My choice is SOLO, period, and here's why it will kill 95% of my fun:

I do fly Assaults and other small ships ships in null / low sec. to catch belt, anomaly, mission hunters on small ships and then kill them when they don't pay enough attention to local and d-scan. Now, killing drakes, ravens, dominixes and other hunter will be impossible on small ships, because I won't have enough time to kill them before NPC's will trim me off.

Covert OP bombers? Forget about it. We barely could orbit tank ships without NPC's attacking us, now - no chance at all.

Basically, killing people while they are doing their hunting will be impossible on small and even medium ships.


By any means, killing solo pvp will NOT make people happy.



THIS.


Killing entire PVP category in null/low sec just to make a small tweak in PVE?

I thought this is PVP based game.... oh god, FoxFour even ignored my first post.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#411 - 2012-09-21 12:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Robert Caldera wrote:
Carcopino wrote:
I've been reading some pretty funny comments coming from self-styled pvpers who are now afraid that they might actually have to face npc fire while they're attacking some random mission runner.
Sorry, but LOL.

there is nothing about "self-styling", as soon as you engage another player its pvp, regardless of whatever he's doing even with a shitfit pve ship. In fact, bears becoming even more safe in 0.0 anomalies/plexes in already too safe place like 0.0 is a serious problem and very one sided.
I dont know if you ever tried to catch a ratter in 0.0, but this has become a ridiculously hard task and a lot of pvp already prior landing your first shot at all.

This patch would remove a big part of risk for 0.0 bears and a big part of pvp - hunting and shooting ratters is apart of sov shiit battes a major part of it, whether you like it or not - while it doesnt introduce any other kind of pvp in return, hence its reducing amount of pvp in eve, which cant be a good thing regardless of everything else.


Have you considered not decloaking until the rats are dead? You're in a stealth bomber that locks pretty much instantly.

However, i must admit that story wise is would make sense for the rats to continue shooting the ratter and not you, as you would effectively be assisting the rats.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Despana
Perkone
Caldari State
#412 - 2012-09-21 12:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Despana
Rek Seven wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
Carcopino wrote:
I've been reading some pretty funny comments coming from self-styled pvpers who are now afraid that they might actually have to face npc fire while they're attacking some random mission runner.
Sorry, but LOL.

there is nothing about "self-styling", as soon as you engage another player its pvp, regardless of whatever he's doing even with a shitfit pve ship. In fact, bears becoming even more safe in 0.0 anomalies/plexes in already too safe place like 0.0 is a serious problem and very one sided.
I dont know if you ever tried to catch a ratter in 0.0, but this has become a ridiculously hard task and a lot of pvp already prior landing your first shot at all.

This patch would remove a big part of risk for 0.0 bears and a big part of pvp - hunting and shooting ratters is apart of sov shiit battes a major part of it, whether you like it or not - while it doesnt introduce any other kind of pvp in return, hence its reducing amount of pvp in eve, which cant be a good thing regardless of everything else.


Have you considered not decloaking until the rats are dead? You're in a stealth bomber that locks pretty much instantly.



Oh really? The longer you are in local, the less your chances to kill your target.
Even more, when you enter 0.0 system, you have around 30 seconds to scan down target and catch it

OTHERWISE:
A. He will warp to safe spot
B. He will call nearest chip & dale squad to hunt you down while you waiting until he will finish his red crosses

And yes, how about other small size ships like assaults without cloaks? Will they now become useless in actually doing what they were made for - catching and killing targets larger than they are?
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#413 - 2012-09-21 12:45:17 UTC
I have to agree that a change like that pretty much means that heavy drones will be dead and sentries the only useable drone type. That also means speed tanking drone boats will be unusable.

It's hard enough to work with heavy drones in missions with spawns already but random aggro will be completely unmanageable and even if it IS, it will completely eat up drone DPS.

The basic drone management is also terribly unsuited to this new behaviour. The 'guard' command will be completely useless if aggro is not concentrated on the guarded target, since the drones prefer to sit idle instead of reverting back to their former behaviour once their guarded target runs out of aggressors. Manually allocating targets will not be an option, since the majority of target slots (typical drone boats have 7) will be used up by the 5 drones to keep an eye on and rep up - in an attempt to mitigate the DPS drop a bit.


Personally i will be severely affected since my current strategy (due to SP restrictions) of running missions in a tank+DPS setup will be invalidated and I will be forced to run Lvl3's or not run missions at all until I can accumulate enough SP for a spider setup on both accounts, but at least that problem CAN be overcome. (Please feel free to explain to your marketing staff that you completely nullified their 'power of two' campaign with you ingenious AI idea) I'm not sure if i really want to invest the effort though instead of simply canceling my subscription and finding another game to play.


I would strongly suggest that for this patch you concentrate on creating/reworking SOME missions to the new AI and see how players accept the change. If those missions are avoided by drone boats and fleets as a general rule that might be a hint that people do not welome your change as much as you expected.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#414 - 2012-09-21 13:06:23 UTC
So, the pirate pvp types are upset because their pve fit targets might have a chance in an actual fight instead of just being the Target in a one sided gankfest?

People play this game to have fun. Getting ganked by some mouth breathing baby eater isn't fun for anyone but the ganker.

While I hope that they put in the tools to manage aggro or to control where the damage goes, keeping pve for groups and drone boats viable, its attitudes like Caldera's that have made me wish for a change of this nature for years. Assuming the game stays playable for myself and my friends, this change will actually get you new targets, because I will move to low and null sec areas if I feel I'm more than some chuckleheads target for thier twisted domestic abuse fantasies.

The goal of making pve and pvp fits the same is good for that reason. The game is supposed to be fun, and being victimized isnt fun. It may be fun for the kind of guy that likes slapping those weaker than themselves without fear of repercussions and watching them cry, but not for anyone else.

Crying because NPCs are going to partially level the feild kinda makes you look less like some badass pvper fighter pilot, and more like the kind of fat-kid bully that sobs when he gets a taste of what he's been serving.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#415 - 2012-09-21 13:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Rek Seven wrote:
Have you considered not decloaking until the rats are dead? You're in a stealth bomber that locks pretty much instantly.

lol you clearly have no idea whats going on.
0.0 isnt like high sec where a ratter happily goes on missioning with 80 neutrals in local. As soon as neutral appears in local, almost everyone will warp out to station/POS/safe or logoff, even if not much earlier as soon as you get reported in intel channels 2 jumps away. Getting there intime and see the ship on grid already requires a lot of effort and luck, so waiting till NPCs are done isnt an option at all - either you grab him at first chance or you wont kill anything there.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#416 - 2012-09-21 13:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Phill Esteen wrote:
In a bid to improve the PvE content of their MMO, CCP hands out a massive nerf to group-oriented PvE. Solo mission runners remain unaware that there has been any change.

Further news as the situation develops.


lol

Hyperbole aside, there is some truth to this. I got a buddy (actually a friend of a friend) who just started playing and is now "barely" skilled into a drake. Because of being in fleet with me and has Real Life friend who introduced him to the game, he now has the standings to run lvl 4s, but of course his ship (and real) skills are lagging behind. he's lost 2 drakes so far trying to solo lvl 4s (lol) when me and his friend aren't online.

When we are online we let him tag along and watch and he's learning the ropes and of course the dude should be in a Raven by the time this change happens. Just saying that it would have made things more difficult had it been in place now.

I'm not quick to throw the word nerf around, but this change seems like nothing more than a Drone DPS/New player/Alt salvage nerf on the pve side. On the PVP side it's potentially a combat nerf, as pvp ships aren't usually set up to tank npcs.

If i'm ratting in a BS and a cruiser tries to gank me in a null anom, I bascially get support from all the NPC cruisers and maybe frigs in the anom. That just tells me to shoot npc battleships 1st lol.

When I take my FoF missile ships (Tengu now, maybe Navy Raven in the future depending on how hard the HML nerf hits) + Machariel into anomalies I won't notice a single difference as I never use drones anyways. The solo mission runner (even the dual boxer) will notice nothing except a higher and more frequent drone replacement bill.

But the guy actually trying to help a bud by letting him tag along and watch IS going to notice. Let me say again, not against the change, just want the powers that be to be aware.
Despana
Perkone
Caldari State
#417 - 2012-09-21 13:16:36 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
So, the pirate pvp types are upset because their pve fit targets might have a chance in an actual fight instead of just being the Target in a one sided gankfest?

People play this game to have fun. Getting ganked by some mouth breathing baby eater isn't fun for anyone but the ganker.

While I hope that they put in the tools to manage aggro or to control where the damage goes, keeping pve for groups and drone boats viable, its attitudes like Caldera's that have made me wish for a change of this nature for years. Assuming the game stays playable for myself and my friends, this change will actually get you new targets, because I will move to low and null sec areas if I feel I'm more than some chuckleheads target for thier twisted domestic abuse fantasies.

The goal of making pve and pvp fits the same is good for that reason. The game is supposed to be fun, and being victimized isnt fun. It may be fun for the kind of guy that likes slapping those weaker than themselves without fear of repercussions and watching them cry, but not for anyone else.

Crying because NPCs are going to partially level the feild kinda makes you look less like some badass pvper fighter pilot, and more like the kind of fat-kid bully that sobs when he gets a taste of what he's been serving.



Can I ask you - what the hell are you doing in this game?

Let me explain what is EVE from PVP point of view for people like you came from regular MMORPG's with pvp existing only in BG's and Arenas.

1. This game is not fair - deal with it. 99.9% of battles are NOT FAIR
For example, you and your buddy decided to have a little bit of PVP somewhere. You might find yourself in situations like:
A. GateCamp - You jump and encounter 10x outnumbered amount of people on other side - no chances for you without a scout (scout will die anyway)
B. Accidentally got caught by 10x more size roam & zergs (this might include FW gangs, alliance roams etc)

2. This game is actually MADE in a way to create risk for you everywhere outside high sec (even high sec is not safe - read suicide ganking)
So when you go to low sec for extra profit, or trying to make your career in NPC 0.0 region you will always find someone trying to find your weak spots. So you should think yourself how you want to balance your risk / profit.

This is tactical game.
Starakus
Shrouded in secret
#418 - 2012-09-21 13:17:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Starakus
Before I cancel both my accounts due to this proposed AI work, can you explain how these proposed AI changes are in any way part of your attempts to listen to the player community and fix existing broken content rather than actually creating an upheaval and breaking working content?

Have you bothered to read all of these concerns that your proposed changes to AI are stirring up? Yet this is only a preliminary view of the problems your creating, something which probably could have been hammered out over lunch before even attempting to introduce this information to the player community.

All of your focus and what you will be working on from now until the winter release are the AI as your main priority?
How is this not a 180 turn from what you have proposed as far as your promises to stop doing this sort of thing?

Why are your priorities not fixing existing broken content as in:
-The bounty system
-The alliance and corporation system
-bounding box and PC/NPC hangup issues on asteriods/gates/stations
-random disconnects
-Promised UI fixes

I was lured back with the intent that CCP would stop breaking things so they could fix them and fix the things that were already broken instead. I have a few days to decide and almost a decade worth of work to consider losing so I figured I would ask a legitimate question instead of rage quitting, which seems to already be happening on this thread.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#419 - 2012-09-21 13:25:42 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
Carcopino wrote:
I've been reading some pretty funny comments coming from self-styled pvpers who are now afraid that they might actually have to face npc fire while they're attacking some random mission runner.
Sorry, but LOL.

there is nothing about "self-styling", as soon as you engage another player its pvp, regardless of whatever he's doing even with a shitfit pve ship. In fact, bears becoming even more safe in 0.0 anomalies/plexes in already too safe place like 0.0 is a serious problem and very one sided.
I dont know if you ever tried to catch a ratter in 0.0, but this has become a ridiculously hard task and a lot of pvp already prior landing your first shot at all.

This patch would remove a big part of risk for 0.0 bears and a big part of pvp - hunting and shooting ratters is apart of sov shiit battes a major part of it, whether you like it or not - while it doesnt introduce any other kind of pvp in return, hence its reducing amount of pvp in eve, which cant be a good thing regardless of everything else.


Have you considered not decloaking until the rats are dead? You're in a stealth bomber that locks pretty much instantly.

However, i must admit that story wise is would make sense for the rats to continue shooting the ratter and not you, as you would effectively be assisting the rats.


Rat Aggro should be standings based. If you want to go hunt out in 0.0 and dont want the rats to shoot you get standings towards them. This would help tie in the lore better and make it so people that still want to hunt in null can. Not sure if this would be hard to implament but I would think this would be the same mechanic as faction police in empire.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#420 - 2012-09-21 13:29:58 UTC
Carcopino wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:

there is nothing about "self-styling", as soon as you engage another player its pvp, regardless of whatever he's doing even with a shitfit pve ship. In fact, bears becoming even more safe in 0.0 anomalies/plexes in already too safe place like 0.0 is a serious problem and very one sided.
I dont know if you ever tried to catch a ratter in 0.0, but this has become a ridiculously hard task and a lot of pvp already prior landing your first shot at all.

This patch would remove a big part of risk for 0.0 bears and a big part of pvp - hunting and shooting ratters is apart of sov shiit battes a major part of it, whether you like it or not - while it doesnt introduce any other kind of pvp in return, hence its reducing amount of pvp in eve, which cant be a good thing regardless of everything else.


Look, I don't mean to belittle your efforts or anything like that, I understand that hunting down fellas in enemy controlled space is a warfare tool and a risky activity.

What is amusing to me, though, is the thought that, for some reason, the npcs should spare the mission-guy hunter. That would be kinda difficult to justify..What would be more fun that both hunter and victim having to warp away in pods due to npc wrath?.
P


It's not difficult to justify at all.

Why would the captains of the NPC ships who are getting SLAUGHTERED as soon as they appear by some mad man in a Tengu suddenly say "hey, there is this other guy who just warped in and is trying to kill the guy captaining the Tengu who is slaughtering us, well we can't have that, KILL OUR RESCUER BEFORE HE RESCUES US??!?!?!

It makes perfect sense for the NPCs to wait till the actual immediate threat is dead before trying to kill the second (only potential) threat. Good pirate AI would recognize the concept of "enemy of my enemy is my friend, at least till 1st enemy is dead" lol