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Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#261 - 2012-09-20 20:02:46 UTC
Do me a favor before you guys go live with this stuff. Run anoms in a drone boat and then run them in the racial BS that is best against the local rats and compare the bounty ticks. I would think that a Navy domi versus a Navy Apoc against Sansha / Bloodraiders for example would be a decent comparison.

The way things are now If you are a Minmatar pilot you can go to Angel space and do well. If you are Amarr then Bloodraiders or Sansha space is good for you. For Caldari obviously it's serpentis/guristas. Drone boat's however have no race that they do well at killing. The advantage currently is that they do decent at all of them.

I understand that the Gallente have Hybrids as well but the caldari are more rail focused and blasters really aren't any good for PvE. The amount of time you spend traveling to the target costs you more dps than if you could hit from further out. Projectile pilots have ships like the Machariel and Vargur to make AC's usefull in PvE and the Amarr have scortch ammo and the NApoc to make Pulses good. Heck even ships without an optimal bonus like the NApoc can do well with Pulses. Blasters however, I know of no ship that makes blasters a viable option for PvE when we are talking isk/hour or isk/tick as the judging factor.

Please experiment with isk/hour potential of Gallente and drone pilots versus everyone else. Other wise you are giving Gallente / Drone pilots a serious ass pounding. Isk per hour is the almighty equalizer of everything in game. If you make half as much that means you can afford to loose half as many ships which means you'll get half as much experience and be half as good as another pilot of a different race with the same amount of game time as you. Keep that in mind.

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Li Charen-Teng
#262 - 2012-09-20 20:02:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Li Charen-Teng
I am all open for a revamp of PvE content, alot of things need updates and fixes. This AI change is currently tested on Guristas content and than you didn't even tested it on ALL of a race content? :notsureifserious:

Every pirate faction has high end plexes starting with the 6/10 that requires careful aggro management, a dedicated tank, a logi and a dps ship. Most of the high end plexes require already a team to finish it (unless you super pimp your ships for a cpl billions) and with the new AI you will have to bring alot more people in the complexes, which brings down the isk/h alot, especially if you have to share it with 4 or 5 people instead of the usual 2 now. Since the nerf to high-end plexes in the months after Dominion (due to people getting alot more escalations) 0.0 dwellers just have about the same or even less income than other PvE content like Incursions or now FW plexing with a lot higher risk. Most people still do complexes in 0.0 because they want to be able to help defend their 0.0 space when needed and using jumpclones is only allowed every 24 hours - so they will stay close to their staging system.

I stopped plexing in 0.0 already because it's not worth it anymore, I can earn alot more ISK in low-sec plexing with alot less risk due to the changes made to complexes with Dominion, so the next step is high-sec for me?! Seriously?

So basically this is a nerf to 0.0 PvE which is only the third best PvE income available to players atm - having an alt in high-sec NPC corp running the missions can't be a goal for a MMO that basically lives from the stories and content that lowsec and nullsec create.

Checking EVE GATE every few minutes...

Ispia Jaydrath
Reib Autonomous Industries
#263 - 2012-09-20 20:05:24 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
Syn Fatelyng wrote:

Can defenders kill citadels? If so, that might suddenly have a use for the aggroed ship.

Smartbombs can ;-)


They can, but the timing is extremely hard. I tried repeatedly with a large smartbomb on a carrier, and never once managed to hit it. And this was back before the missile graphics change, when you could actually see them coming at you.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#264 - 2012-09-20 20:05:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Revamp aggro mechanics on PvE system that is largely balanced around players' careful managing of aggro mechanics, state adjusting the missions themselves isn't a possibility
hmmm...
Ispia Jaydrath
Reib Autonomous Industries
#265 - 2012-09-20 20:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ispia Jaydrath
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
What about sites like Dread Guristas Fleet Staging Point 3?
There is a Guristas Fleet Stronghold that launches Citadel Torpedos every 30 seconds. It will obliterate any subcap support for the capital already required to tank it if it switches targets.
Or is it expected some sites become cap only?


To be honest I am not familiar with this site and will have to test it.


I am now terrified for the future of exploration. Unless you've actually run the maze, you have absolutely no business ****ing with the AI in DED complexes. I'm glad I've moved past using exploration as my primary income, as these changes would have prevented me from getting into it in the first place and I would never have become filthy rich and started living off investment income.

Now sure, I could look at the elimination of one route by which new players can join me and my bemonocled friends in the 1% as a good thing, from a self-interest standpoint, but somehow I don't think it would be good for the game.

tl;dr proposed changes represent large nerf to exploration, large nerf to nullsec income, complete elimination of ninja exploration profession as it exists today.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#266 - 2012-09-20 20:08:34 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Louis deGuerre wrote:
BRAIIIIIIINNNNNS BRAIIIINNNNSSSS

This is going to be soooooo much fun. I can already taste the sea of tears Pirate


A sea of tears over this... you should have seen what else we wanted the NPC to do. Pirate


You can have a few buckets from me.

I understand that change is change but not everyone is a solo level four mission runner or a solo carrier in an anom. Is this supposed to nerf logistic ships so that groups have to have at least two on grid during any high damage site?

Is it that unbalanced that taking a new player into a higher level mission and giving them a role like frig killing
here they can feel active in the group is going to mean they die a lot? Their ships will pop or is the entire concept of a fleet and small ships being okay as well not on the table anymore? Or is this saying that if you want to mission with a newbie in a t1 fit destroyer and no logi you will learn your lesson and not do that... If the logo hasn't been shot down already.

I will have to switch my covops to a T3 just not to lose her in exploration sites while the dos ship is pewing things.

I understand that missions are boring and easy but missions are not everything.

As a logistics pilot I'm confused. I do not run missions but explore and scan down sites. I do none of this in high sec.

As an exploration pilot I'd also ask that the despawn of sites be looked at since players will be warping out a lot more.

I understand that eve is for fleets and group play but three people is a fleet.

Or is this just the general nerf and slow down missions to slow down isk without doing isk percentage cuts which generate rage.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Bob Bedala
#267 - 2012-09-20 20:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Bob Bedala
Bagehi wrote:
Soundwave is a game designer and he's been championing making PVE more like PVP. So, this looks like a step in the direction of what a game designer, the lead game designer, has stated as a goal for the game.


OK that's fine, that's the broad brush stroke. But again the devil is in the detail and quickly in this thread a bunch of issues have been identified, which seem pretty obvious. Just like "let's revamp the inventory" without considering all the edge cases around that little window. The game is too broad and deep to jump on a single piece of functionality because few operate in isolation.
agrajag119
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#268 - 2012-09-20 20:10:50 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
[
You should be able to range tank citadel torps though. That's what I've always done anyway. Pretty easy to keep out of range. Citadel Torps are really short range, and it shouldn't take a whole lot of effort to keep range on an outpost. It isn't like it is mwd'ing towards you.



That would work except the acceleration gate lands you within web range of the station. So you warp in and are immediately webbed down to about 3 m/s. So your initial tank will take that first couple torps, and then you'd have to pray the logi can burn out past the 60KM range of the stations torp before it gets target switched. All while somehow having the logic magically tank all the NPC's that will switch to it, who won't be able to be ranged tanked.


Of course this is doable, but now you come across the real kicker. You'll need 800-1000dps to break the tank on the station. Weapons systems with >60km range from one ship won't cut it.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#269 - 2012-09-20 20:11:01 UTC
Stratocast wrote:
K so now why fly anything besides a missile boat? Drone boats will feel it the hardest unless aggro is sent to the ship and not the drone. Large gun ships also need to use drones to kill of close orbiting frigs even with a web. Seems like new players that choose to go any other race than Caldari are going to have an even harder time soloing L4's.


Didn't they just announce a nerf to heavy missile damage? If you are talking Drake/Tengu Caldari may suck in the near future as well.

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#270 - 2012-09-20 20:15:49 UTC
Alexandr Archer wrote:
CPP.How about module that repair drones/figthers on board of ship?

Gel Matrix Biopaste! Make it able to rep drones!

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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#271 - 2012-09-20 20:17:11 UTC
Logicycle wrote:


By the way when are we gonna get a new dev blog about the inventory system? It would be nice if you guys fixed one catastrophe before making a new ones.



This

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#272 - 2012-09-20 20:18:22 UTC
agrajag119 wrote:
Bagehi wrote:
[
You should be able to range tank citadel torps though. That's what I've always done anyway. Pretty easy to keep out of range. Citadel Torps are really short range, and it shouldn't take a whole lot of effort to keep range on an outpost. It isn't like it is mwd'ing towards you.



That would work except the acceleration gate lands you within web range of the station. So you warp in and are immediately webbed down to about 3 m/s. So your initial tank will take that first couple torps, and then you'd have to pray the logi can burn out past the 60KM range of the stations torp before it gets target switched. All while somehow having the logic magically tank all the NPC's that will switch to it, who won't be able to be ranged tanked.


Of course this is doable, but now you come across the real kicker. You'll need 800-1000dps to break the tank on the station. Weapons systems with >60km range from one ship won't cut it.

I assume more pilots could do these sites. Maybe we just need to accept that like high end W systems and incursions, these complexes are fleet content.

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Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2012-09-20 20:19:54 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Aethlyn wrote:
Everyone? The only drones skill I'm having at level 5 is Drones. Others are on 1-4 maximum. Don't always assume everyone is just AFKing missions or whatever.

you don't have scout drone operation to 5? shameful, get some t2 drones all up ins they are amazing


I've got T2 Warriors and Hobgoblins - just don't remember exact prereqs. :)

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Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#274 - 2012-09-20 20:20:30 UTC
Alexandr Archer wrote:
I have just a simple idea ,AI changes doesn't include drones.Agro from drones is counting as agro from host-ship.This will be fair to all drones ship, becouse AI cant just focus fire on your missiles launcher or turret and take it down.


One of the goals of this change is to make AFK NPC grinding with drones impossible, so your suggestion is likely to be deemed unacceptable. Even if you ignore that goal, making a total exception for drones would open up ways to exploit such an obvious failure in how the AI behaves. It's a careful balancing act to keep drones effective with a smarter AI, but I think even a somewhat unbalanced situation is preferable to just throwing your hands in the air and giving up even before trying to get that balance right.
Feldercarb
Shrouded in secret
#275 - 2012-09-20 20:21:14 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
Feldercarb wrote:
Bob Bedala wrote:
I've just realised something.

On large scale software projects, you have engineers dedicated to feature releases & sections of the codebase. But those features are specced by product owners who are experts in their fields, in this case game designers.

Do CCP really have engineers in effect doing game design with seemingly little feedback from game designers?

The latter are the people who should be in communication with the playerbase, not engineers -- unless it's digging into the details of a bug. Seems weird-as, to me, but explains a heck of a lot.


I have to agree here. Its like this team has to find something to do to keep a job instead of being assigned something to do by a game designer. Does CCP have game designers anymore? I am really beginning to wonder. I can testify first hand at the frustration of CCP breaking content. I am constantly getting more reasons to leave rather than more reasons to come back. I have been back approx 2 months with the notion that CCP finally listened to their players and were making the changes players have been asking for. To stop working on useless things and address the things players have been pointing out and to not waver from that goal. This is a waver from that goal.

I had relearned all the stuff I had missed, I had finally settled into a role and learned all the new changes and and mods and started making a plan and a goal and working toward that goal. Now I am faced with a nerf that challenges my entire goal and makes me consider just leaving. I chose rattler pilot, wrong time to come back I guess. The new ancillary mod made rattler viable again, now this nerf sucks all the fun out of game play again. Suck me in with great new changes and a listening ear to player concerns, and then chase them away again with needless changes and failure to deliver on the promises used to lure players back.


Soundwave is a game designer and he's been championing making PVE more like PVP. So, this looks like a step in the direction of what a game designer, the lead game designer, has stated as a goal for the game.


...and where were these stated goals in the release notes for Inferno? Where did it say we are going to release new mining changes, mods, fixes, and DRONE AI? This is deviating from the set goals posted in this release and creating new bugs and unforeseen consequences in HighSec PVE, null sec ganking, DED sites, Eve economy, and a direct impact on player count, and eve itself. Where are any of these changes helpful? I don't see a game designers hands on this at all, and much has been left unconsidered in the impact this seemingly small change is really producing. This idea should be completely scrapped and is taking way too much dev time away from serious issues. Concord is attacking players? I mean come on this is pathetic. Creating bugs out of thin air for no reason. I don't see Soundwave's signature on this either.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#276 - 2012-09-20 20:29:14 UTC
\o/ been asking for this for awhile Lol
( the mission AI not the rogue doughnuteaters ALTHOUGH maybeanoccasionalroge cop couldbe a new feature P)



CCP FoxFour wrote:
Louis deGuerre wrote:
BRAIIIIIIINNNNNS BRAIIIINNNNSSSS

This is going to be soooooo much fun. I can already taste the sea of tears Pirate


A sea of tears over this... you should have seen what else we wanted the NPC to do. Pirate



PLEASE TELL

An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Chih Neu
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#277 - 2012-09-20 20:29:16 UTC
Yes, estamels modified leviathon should drop on a random carrier running an anomaly when it feels like it. Drops normal officer loot table if tackled

Maybe give it a 1 in 337 chance per anom respawn with a single carrier in it.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#278 - 2012-09-20 20:30:33 UTC
Anything that provides more variety and challenge in missions is a Good Thing, IMO. Missions are a deadly boring grind-fest at present, and are in dire need of an update.

In fact, I'd like to see not only more aggressive rats, but also a degree of randomization in missions. It shouldn't be possible to map out every single aspect of a mission site such that it becomes totally predictable. If you want PVE to become more PVP-ish, then randomness is an essential element.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#279 - 2012-09-20 20:35:08 UTC
I am back from that event and dinner. I have read through every single post since I was last here and will now begin trying to answer as many questions as I can.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#280 - 2012-09-20 20:39:10 UTC
Feldercarb wrote:
Concord is attacking players? I mean come on this is pathetic. Creating bugs out of thin air for no reason. I don't see Soundwave's signature on this either.


When you're playing with NPC AI in what amounts to delta or alpha code on a test server, this isn't even unusual.

Now, if CONCORD started behaving that way on TQ, it'd be really funny a serious lapse on CCP's part.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!