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Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

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Alexandr Archer
LENINGRAD SPB Ru
#241 - 2012-09-20 19:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexandr Archer
I have just a simple idea ,AI changes doesn't include drones.Agro from drones is counting as agro from host-ship.This will be fair to all drones ship, becouse AI cant just focus fire on your missiles launcher or turret and take it down.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#242 - 2012-09-20 19:21:57 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Lors Dornick wrote:
you're trapped and out of luck.

Well then this is boring, so much for more excitement in missions.

Yes i took only heavy drones and i think light drones would die even faster.
I got a guristas mission with alot of frigates and jamming ships, so yea.

So new mechanics let you get stuck in mission for 24 hours.
Cool

Very exciting missions i must say.


Hey wouldn't it be cool if there were other people in this game that you play that you could as to help you out in situations like this. Might go something like this

Hey I am stuck in a mission can someone come kill this frig that is tackling me.

Sure I can for a few ISK

OK just hurry up and get here.

Wow that was so hard to think of all on my own I needed to call in experts
Feldercarb
Shrouded in secret
#243 - 2012-09-20 19:22:16 UTC
Bob Bedala wrote:
I've just realised something.

On large scale software projects, you have engineers dedicated to feature releases & sections of the codebase. But those features are specced by product owners who are experts in their fields, in this case game designers.

Do CCP really have engineers in effect doing game design with seemingly little feedback from game designers?

The latter are the people who should be in communication with the playerbase, not engineers -- unless it's digging into the details of a bug. Seems weird-as, to me, but explains a heck of a lot.


I have to agree here. Its like this team has to find something to do to keep a job instead of being assigned something to do by a game designer. Does CCP have game designers anymore? I am really beginning to wonder. I can testify first hand at the frustration of CCP breaking content. I am constantly getting more reasons to leave rather than more reasons to come back. I have been back approx 2 months with the notion that CCP finally listened to their players and were making the changes players have been asking for. To stop working on useless things and address the things players have been pointing out and to not waver from that goal. This is a waver from that goal.

I had relearned all the stuff I had missed, I had finally settled into a role and learned all the new changes and and mods and started making a plan and a goal and working toward that goal. Now I am faced with a nerf that challenges my entire goal and makes me consider just leaving. I chose rattler pilot, wrong time to come back I guess. The new ancillary mod made rattler viable again, now this nerf sucks all the fun out of game play again. Suck me in with great new changes and a listening ear to player concerns, and then chase them away again with needless changes and failure to deliver on the promises used to lure players back.
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2012-09-20 19:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dalilus
Despana wrote:
I can't believe so many people actually HAPPY about this changes....

How about you will turn on your brains before you post something in here and make CCP think they are on the right path?


Let me tell you why I will quit this game if this changes will go live:

I play eve since 2004 and I am not a big fan of gangs, fleets etc.
Because this game is sandbox, it gives us free choice what to do. My choice is SOLO, period, and here's why it will kill 95% of my fun:

I do fly Assaults and other small ships ships in null / low sec. to catch belt, anomaly, mission hunters on small ships and then kill them when they don't pay enough attention to local and d-scan. Now, killing drakes, ravens, dominixes and other hunter will be impossible on small ships, because I won't have enough time to kill them before NPC's will trim me off.

Covert OP bombers? Forget about it. We barely could orbit tank ships without NPC's attacking us, now - no chance at all.

Basically, killing people while they are doing their hunting will be impossible on small and even medium ships.


By any means, killing solo pvp will NOT make people happy.


lol, the hunted might disagree. Imagine flying a marauder or bs and a pilgrim shows up to ruin your day. The marauder and bs pilots just have to keep taking care of business, or even better stop taking care of business, while the rats take care of the little pest. Works both ways. Twisted Make the NPC work for you for a change....talk about backup.

Hmmmm....now that I think about it CCP why not make NPCs be attracted to cynos? Imagine the tears...
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#245 - 2012-09-20 19:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Alexandr Archer wrote:
I have just an simple idea ,AI changes doesn't include drones.Agro from drones is counting as agro from host-ship.This will be fair to all drones ship, becouse AI cant just focus fire on your missiles launcher or turret and take it down.

I agree with this.

MIrple wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Lors Dornick wrote:
you're trapped and out of luck.

Well then this is boring, so much for more excitement in missions.

Yes i took only heavy drones and i think light drones would die even faster.
I got a guristas mission with alot of frigates and jamming ships, so yea.

So new mechanics let you get stuck in mission for 24 hours.
Cool

Very exciting missions i must say.


Hey wouldn't it be cool if there were other people in this game that you play that you could as to help you out in situations like this. Might go something like this

Hey I am stuck in a mission can someone come kill this frig that is tackling me.

Sure I can for a few ISK

OK just hurry up and get here.

Wow that was so hard to think of all on my own I needed to call in experts

And if no one wants to help you or you have no isk ?... then you're stuck for 24 hours until downtime.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#246 - 2012-09-20 19:30:03 UTC
I know we recently got drone damage mods but I'd like to point a couple things out.

Some of the benefits of drones include:

no ammo costs (assuming you don't loose any)

versatility

ability to control aggro (example is keep aggro on yourself so drones don't take ewar)


These benefits come with some draw backs which include:

low damage potential

low damage increases on damage mod

little to no damage increases from rigs ( the sentry augmenters have a hard time fitting even on ships that can use sentries)

dps loss from recalling drones

dps loss from travel to target and deploy delays.


The changes listed are going to make PvE a lot more difficult and more expensive for drone boats. I'm sure you've taken this into consideration but I don't think you fully understand the extreme end to which this will tip the scales. I for one will likely dump all of my Dominix's. It's not a big deal for me since I'm equally skilled on all races' battleships but for Gallente focused toons and especially new Gallente toons this is a game changer and not in a good way.

Please consider the extreme differential of effect this has on drone boats versus everything else. You might want to give drones in general or drone boats specifically some love to compensate. Maybe better bonuses from the mods or more rig options. The way things stand now if you were to put sleeper AI in all of empire (which I know you said is not happening) then Gallente pilots would be at an extreme disadvantage from an isk making standpoint. So the only question is to what extent but if you have to keep an eye on drones and constantly recall and deploy them it will be pointless to fly drone boats. In PvE.

Again this is more of an issue for new characters than it is for us older ones that have options but please look into this a little better. Keep in mind that if you are capable of making half as much isk per hour as every other race then effectively everything in game costs you twice as much.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Stratocast
Distant Knight Inc
#247 - 2012-09-20 19:31:23 UTC
K so now why fly anything besides a missile boat? Drone boats will feel it the hardest unless aggro is sent to the ship and not the drone. Large gun ships also need to use drones to kill of close orbiting frigs even with a web. Seems like new players that choose to go any other race than Caldari are going to have an even harder time soloing L4's.
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#248 - 2012-09-20 19:33:06 UTC
Feldercarb wrote:
Bob Bedala wrote:
I've just realised something.

On large scale software projects, you have engineers dedicated to feature releases & sections of the codebase. But those features are specced by product owners who are experts in their fields, in this case game designers.

Do CCP really have engineers in effect doing game design with seemingly little feedback from game designers?

The latter are the people who should be in communication with the playerbase, not engineers -- unless it's digging into the details of a bug. Seems weird-as, to me, but explains a heck of a lot.


I have to agree here. Its like this team has to find something to do to keep a job instead of being assigned something to do by a game designer. Does CCP have game designers anymore? I am really beginning to wonder. I can testify first hand at the frustration of CCP breaking content. I am constantly getting more reasons to leave rather than more reasons to come back. I have been back approx 2 months with the notion that CCP finally listened to their players and were making the changes players have been asking for. To stop working on useless things and address the things players have been pointing out and to not waver from that goal. This is a waver from that goal.

I had relearned all the stuff I had missed, I had finally settled into a role and learned all the new changes and and mods and started making a plan and a goal and working toward that goal. Now I am faced with a nerf that challenges my entire goal and makes me consider just leaving. I chose rattler pilot, wrong time to come back I guess. The new ancillary mod made rattler viable again, now this nerf sucks all the fun out of game play again. Suck me in with great new changes and a listening ear to player concerns, and then chase them away again with needless changes and failure to deliver on the promises used to lure players back.


Soundwave is a game designer and he's been championing making PVE more like PVP. So, this looks like a step in the direction of what a game designer, the lead game designer, has stated as a goal for the game.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#249 - 2012-09-20 19:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Good points.

Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
Proposition :
- no webs on drones ( all other forms of ewar are fine )
- light drones targeted by frigates only ( no destroyers )
- medium drones targeted by short range cruisers only
- heavy drones targeted by short range cruisers/battlecruisers
- no more than 4 normal rats ( 2 elite ) shooting at single drone at the same time


A counter-proposition:

- small drones have the sig radius of shuttles, at most; med drones of small frigates; heavies, somewhere between frigate and destroyer;
- drones have two rules when webbed: 1) do not fire MWD; 2) auto-recall to drone bay, only firing MWD once clear of the web;
- drone UI gets updated so that you can see when one of your drones is being targeted, and by which and how many ships. Also, make it possible to see what EWAR is on them.

Drone management would still have to be careful, like it is now, but at least you could see that your drones were in peril, and by whom, and the small sig radius would give you time to adjust tactics while they were being targeted. Also, the drones would no longer suicide themselves by MWDing while webbed.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#250 - 2012-09-20 19:39:24 UTC
Missile ships: Obsolete
Drone Ships: Obsolete
Other ships: good as long as they can track frigates.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#251 - 2012-09-20 19:43:07 UTC
Bob Bedala wrote:
I've just realised something.

On large scale software projects, you have engineers dedicated to feature releases & sections of the codebase. But those features are specced by product owners who are experts in their fields, in this case game designers.

Do CCP really have engineers in effect doing game design with seemingly little feedback from game designers?

The latter are the people who should be in communication with the playerbase, not engineers -- unless it's digging into the details of a bug. Seems weird-as, to me, but explains a heck of a lot.

I've worked on several of major software releases.

With the risk of shutting down the operations of more than 10 offices over more than 3 continents.

However, EvE is a game, as hard as it might be to grasp sometimes, it's a game, it's not a serious software with the ability to shift billions of money all over the planet or even shift a replacement Ford gearbox to the next state.

It's a game.

And if we are talking large scale software projects, EvE is a very small project.

So before you even try to compare what the slackers^h^h^h^h^h^h poor dudes at CCP are doing with SAP. remember that it's game, and whatever bizarre bugs that CCP Arrow is going to introduce to your UI (or UI UI), you'll still get your replacement gearbox from Ford.

If you didn't ordered a new gearbox from Ford, if you get one anyway it's most likely that CCP Arrow worked at Ford before getting employed to destroy EvE.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Joker Dronemaster
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2012-09-20 19:44:57 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
As for the drone hate: This is something we are keeping a very close eye on and have already tweaked several times. We are working hard to find the right balance between just killing all drones and drone pilots having to pay attention.


Speaking as someone with 22 million SP in drones (less then a day for FB 5 to have every skill at 5) I can tell you with absolute certainty that if you reasoning for the drone hate is to make me pay attention then your doing redundant work. I've spent a considerable amount of time running drone boats through high end content and AFKing even for a second has cost me billions due to current drone aggression mechanics. I can't tell you how many times a lapse in concentration has caused them to LEROYYYYYYYY!!!!! straight to the ship that triggers the new wave consisting of 500 DPS/Neut Towers/Scram frigs resulting in at best the loss of 1 - 2 drones and at worst my lodgi exploding in a miserable hellfire before I've had a chance to kill of everything scramming the Billion+ isk tank; which shortly follows his lodgi friend into the afterlife. WHILE THE DRONES ARE SET TO FREAKING PASSIVE!!!! *REPEATEDLY BANGS HEAD INTO DESK*

How about we do something that will make everyone happy.
*1. Remove the auto aggression feature from drones completely and make them only engage what the controller is shooting or whatever they have received a command to. (No other race gets to enjoy jam/damp immunity in PVE so why should we.)

2. Remove them from NPC aggression lists completely.

AFK domi pilots still get a nerf bat shoved where the sun don't shine, drone users no longer have to worry about their drones running off and hitting spawn triggers, and finally making us drone users viable in wormholes/incursions.

* Leave the assist feature in though. I love seeing gate camps with a few interceptors and clouds of drones following them :)
Bob Bedala
#253 - 2012-09-20 19:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Bob Bedala
Lors Dornick wrote:
So before you even try to compare what the slackers^h^h^h^h^h^h poor dudes at CCP are doing with SAP. remember that it's game, and whatever bizarre bugs that CCP Arrow is going to introduce to your UI (or UI UI), you'll still get your replacement gearbox from Ford.


It's large enough to require exactly the kind of management concerns i discuss.
Melina Lin
Universal Frog
#254 - 2012-09-20 19:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Melina Lin
nevermind wrong thread
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#255 - 2012-09-20 19:52:22 UTC
Note to self: finish training for T2 sentries. Let's see them pick those off

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#256 - 2012-09-20 19:53:18 UTC
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
[ I can't tell you how many times a lapse in concentration has caused them to LEROYYYYYYYY!!!!! straight to the ship that triggers the new wave consisting of 500 DPS/Neut Towers/Scram frigs resulting in at best the loss of 1 - 2 drones and at worst my lodgi exploding in a miserable hellfire before I've had a chance to kill of everything scramming the Billion+ isk tank; which shortly follows his lodgi friend into the afterlife. WHILE THE DRONES ARE SET TO FREAKING PASSIVE!!!! *REPEATEDLY BANGS HEAD INTO DESK*


Oh, come on. Next you'll go and ask them to have drones focus their attacks after you specifically tell them to focus their attacks.

Be reasonable, man!

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#257 - 2012-09-20 19:57:31 UTC
we better all start training marauders, we need DPV soon™ Bear

I like the idea, maybe ill run mission fleets again (sometimes for 9 hrs straight for DJ Sarge)

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Lemming Alpha1dash1
Lemmings Online
#258 - 2012-09-20 19:59:32 UTC
Can you maybe add a 4th Level One AI template;

all npc's must hunt and kill DJ LMP Bear

Information is Ammunition,

War does not tolerate Ambiguities.

May you live in an interesting Empyrean age !

http://eve-radio.com/
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#259 - 2012-09-20 20:02:07 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
[ I can't tell you how many times a lapse in concentration has caused them to LEROYYYYYYYY!!!!! straight to the ship that triggers the new wave consisting of 500 DPS/Neut Towers/Scram frigs resulting in at best the loss of 1 - 2 drones and at worst my lodgi exploding in a miserable hellfire before I've had a chance to kill of everything scramming the Billion+ isk tank; which shortly follows his lodgi friend into the afterlife. WHILE THE DRONES ARE SET TO FREAKING PASSIVE!!!! *REPEATEDLY BANGS HEAD INTO DESK*


Oh, come on. Next you'll go and ask them to have drones focus their attacks after you specifically tell them to focus their attacks.

Be reasonable, man!


Yeah, everyone knows the uncontrollable nature of drones is part of their charm. They're like dogs - adorable and generally can be trained, but will occasionally go mental and do whatever the hell they want.

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#260 - 2012-09-20 20:02:22 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:

A counter-proposition:

- small drones have the sig radius of shuttles, at most; med drones of small frigates; heavies, somewhere between frigate and destroyer;
- drones have two rules when webbed: 1) do not fire MWD; 2) auto-recall to drone bay, only firing MWD once clear of the web;
- drone UI gets updated so that you can see when one of your drones is being targeted, and by which and how many ships. Also, make it possible to see what EWAR is on them.

Drone management would still have to be careful, like it is now, but at least you could see that your drones were in peril, and by whom, and the small sig radius would give you time to adjust tactics while they were being targeted. Also, the drones would no longer suicide themselves by MWDing while webbed.


Oh, I do think that drones should have their signature and sig bloom reduced. It could make real drone boats much more attractive for pvp. But that's a different thing entirely and it would require some serious rebalancing.
Maybe some day we'll get thereBlink

I don't know about that auto recall thing but not using mwd would have some sense ( maybe on option similar to 'focus-fire' ).

Drone UI just needs total redesign in general.