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Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

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Bob Bedala
#201 - 2012-09-20 18:19:45 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
Every mission is the same so what is the point of adding new missions


They aren't but, one reason would be to stop people who run missions (if you don't have mates in null what are you going to do? mine??) from quitting before they are even capable of running 4's and y'know, paying for the game. I would like to see those people getting a bit more love from CCP.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#202 - 2012-09-20 18:20:58 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Lors Dornick wrote:
Hmm, just had a similar result with a Rattler, some adjustment in tactics will be needed ;)

But scrambling rats tend to die quite fast to a flight of light drones.

And with 400m3 drone bay one can carry more than one set of drones.

Well new tactic is to dump rattlesnake / dominix and train for another more usefull ship.
Rattlesnake / Dominix becomes obsolete.

Your call.

The Rattler does offer quite some alternatives, not only by using several flights of drones.

It's got a nice tank, and can be fit in other ways than the ones currently written in stone based on the fact that rats always behave in a strict predictable manner.

But the days of warp to target, draw aggro, deploy drones, get coffee is over.

And despite the fact that I'll have to adjust and the skill time to 2xBS V, I still like the Rattler.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#203 - 2012-09-20 18:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
As this is a nerf to drones and fleets, maybe a balancing buff is needed for both. Suggestions:

Drones can already auto-aggro anything that is attacking me. Change it so I can order them to attack anything attacking me without the need to target lock. This would be good even if I do not get to select the target, just the ability to say "Pick one and go!" would be good. Edit, or just change it so drones on auto-aggro do this when initially deployed. Right now they sit and wait until a new target attacks me.

Define my drones and members of my fleet to be "cooperative targets". They cooperate with me in getting a target lock, allowing me to lock my drones and fleet members faster. This would help with remote reps.

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Hoarr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#204 - 2012-09-20 18:22:36 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Castor II wrote:
Can you teach NPCs to suicide gank too? ty


Well right now on the test server they are just killing everything and if you fight back CONCORD smacks you. So we at least tried this. Turns out most our players don't like it.


Bullsh*t. I thought it was hilarious. I tried to jump out of Jita, and traffic control locked me out while the police blapped me. I loled
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#205 - 2012-09-20 18:26:31 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Lors Dornick wrote:
Spc One wrote:
I just tested rattlesnake with heavy drones on DUALITY .. i lost all my drones then got scrambled and couldn't do s*it.
With cruise missiles / torpedoes you can't kill scrambling frigates so i am stuck.
I can just sit back and relax.


Hmm, just had a similar result with a Rattler, some adjustment in tactics will be needed ;)

But scrambling rats tend to die quite fast to a flight of light drones.

And with 400m3 drone bay one can carry more than one set of drones.

So if i get stuck like that on TQ ... can i petition GM to "unstuck me" ?



You managed to lose all your drones?

Including the light ones you need to kill off frigs?

Hmm, no need for a petition, just self destruct your rattler, you're trapped and out of luck.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#206 - 2012-09-20 18:29:33 UTC
Captain Surprise Sex wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Sturmwolke wrote:
L1 AI in L4 missions? ... ahaha ... it'll be very bloody the first few weeks Twisted

As for the drones issue, you have a mechanism to save them (by re-calling and re-launching) but it's too archaic/clunky/fidgety for extended use.
Fix this and it'll alleviate some of the major issues facing drone boats. I propose an auto-recall function when drone hits a user specified amount of dmg but keep the launch/re-launch manual.

Edit: This also looks like another indirect nerf to L4 income if it changes L4 missioning in such a way that it affects the avg pilot's completion time.
The lessons from the incursion changes are still fresh in mind.


Shift+R recalls drones... I do agree though that system needs some work. We will be keeping an eye on the income generated from L4 missions as we do have graphs and statistics for this. :)


Drone boats desperately need a way to launch drones with a hotkey. And not just a "Hey CCP pick some random drones and throw them into space! Heavy armor maintenance I's and a EV-900? Solid choices!" crap shoot like you get executing "Launch" on the root of the drone tree, but the ability to assign different hotkeys to different drone groups.

This is something that should have been done years ago, but being as we're apparently dead set on making cycling drones an exciting new facet of the engaging PvE experience a new flavor of tedium in a never-ending, soul-crushingly dull grind I'd say it now rates as pretty critical.

idon't know, maybe, you know, use that insane feature called groups?
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#207 - 2012-09-20 18:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Lors Dornick wrote:
you're trapped and out of luck.

Well then this is boring, so much for more excitement in missions.

Yes i took only heavy drones and i think light drones would die even faster.
I got a guristas mission with alot of frigates and jamming ships, so yea.

So new mechanics let you get stuck in mission for 24 hours.
Cool

Very exciting missions i must say.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2012-09-20 18:31:49 UTC
worried about it. this could make mission running much much harder making highsec income much less (bad thing).
granted so far all I can tell is you want NPCs to switch from 1 ship to another sometimes, if solo would it still be bad?
-
also this means you have to have spider tank with lvl 5 missions, but since you took them from highsec no one really runs them anymore so who cares.
Josef Djugashvilis
#209 - 2012-09-20 18:34:38 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I would have to be one of those Drone pilots that is a little concerned.

First off I don't AFK. But regardless, the issue is especially with Heavies. If you have your heavy drones out at 45km and they take aggro, they are so slow that often they will die before they can get back.

Now before you say, "just stay closer to your drones" keep in mind that for say a Battleship class mission runner 45km is probably a good range. A turret based BS would be engaging at 45km so it is reasonable that a drone ship (like a dominix) would be expected to engage at that range as well.

It also hampers drone ships much more, as they will have to waste time recalling and re-deploying, further putting drone pilots behind the curve vs turret based ships.

Luckily I mostly prefer sentries. But still, it could be more annoying. Maybe if NPC's had the ability to target a ships turrets...Lol


^^^This really.

It is not like drones are able to 'tank' in any meaningful sense of the word.

Heavy drones are so slow I never let mine go further than about 10km from my Domi.

At least with sentry drones you can pull them in quickly.

Do we get an improved drone UI to help deal with this?

This is not a signature.
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#210 - 2012-09-20 18:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aethlyn
Vincent Athena wrote:
As this is a nerf to drones and fleets, maybe a balancing buff is needed for both. Suggestions:

Drones can already auto-aggro anything that is attacking me. Change it so I can order them to attack anything attacking me without the need to target lock. This would be good even if I do not get to select the target, just the ability to say "Pick one and go!" would be good. Edit, or just change it so drones on auto-aggro do this when initially deployed. Right now they sit and wait until a new target attacks me.

Define my drones and members of my fleet to be "cooperative targets". They cooperate with me in getting a target lock, allowing me to lock my drones and fleet members faster. This would help with remote reps.

This would open up a can of worms regarding griefing etc. I understand what you're trying to suggest. That's perfectly fine in a PvE environment. But how about people camping a gate with sentry drones? You wouldn't be able to get away, even if they can't lock you in time for you to warp out (the drones could, as you don't have to lock first). This could definitely screw over balancing regarding locking times, especially when using smaller drones to catch more fragile targets while being in a bigger ship yourself.

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Agaetis Byrjun Endalaust
#211 - 2012-09-20 18:35:48 UTC
long story short: not only you're nerfing the 3 most popular ships in EVE but also the way everyone was pve-ing since ever.

This update is breaking salvaging during mission, mining, plex runners, drone boats, everyone who spent months to skill a 2nd/3rd/.... account for some specific task. Moreover it will break every technique previously used (thus making all sites reporting info and 'blitz strategies' totally useless) such as the bring-the-tough-guy-who-gets-aggro and clean the rooms with dps boats with some specific role and fitting. Now if I'm not completely wrong, every and each ship should potentially be able to tank the full room. This is a dead end.

Yeah, indeed NPC are getting smarter. Doesn't look the same for humans programming them though

And I'm sure It would be stupid to ask for a complete revamp of bounties and missions rewards

__________________________ just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not after you
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#212 - 2012-09-20 18:37:05 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:

idon't know, maybe, you know, use that insane feature called groups?


Correct, but as far as I know there's no way to assign a hotkey to deploy a given group.

Grouping of drones are nice but it's still a bit annoying to deal with the drone UI to send out the correct flight of drones.

You still have to call the current flight back in (for which there is a hot key that works, unless it's sentries) and then select the flight/group of drones you want to send out, wait for the currently deployed ones to get home, and then r-click and send out the ones you want.

It's not exactly pressing F1 :/

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#213 - 2012-09-20 18:37:34 UTC
Everyone? The only drones skill I'm having at level 5 is Drones. Others are on 1-4 maximum. Don't always assume everyone is just AFKing missions or whatever.

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stoicfaux
#214 - 2012-09-20 18:38:04 UTC
So... aside from drone aggro, mission running for solo people hasn't changed much, or has it? (I ask because I don't expect to have time to try out Duality any time soon.)

Also, +1.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#215 - 2012-09-20 18:38:36 UTC
Its been suggested that you should be able to set drone groups to a HUD button, like a weapon. Click it, that group launches.

Or you could define 3 hot keys: Launch currently selected drone group, move to next drone group, move to previous drone group.

But what would really be nice is a fast and easy way to recall just the drone that caught aggro. Maybe put the drone control buttons on the drone window. I would click on drone in question, click on recall button. You could also define "recall selected item(s)" key. Or alt-click on a drone recalls that drone.

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Ardon Gareau
Chasm City Syndicate
#216 - 2012-09-20 18:38:37 UTC
Syn Fatelyng wrote:
Spc One wrote:
When npc's are 70km away... it's hard to recall drones faster, so you loose all heavy drones.
70k are for sentry drones. Most active drone pilots won't use heavy drones until 20-25k since Gardes can easily track (with omnis) most things that close.


I find myself sending heavy drones out as far as 60k when it will take *forever* for my ship to make its way out to the target ships. Yes, I "chase" the drones and often end up in the 20-25k range, but they can reach the outlying ships faster than I can. If they start taking damage at that range (especially if a new flight of warps in and webs them), they're toast.
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#217 - 2012-09-20 18:40:18 UTC
Ardon GareauI wrote:
find myself sending heavy drones out as far as 60k when it will take *forever* for my ship to make its way out to the target ships.
Sounds like a good time to switch to Wardens and ranged ammo.
Letrange
Chaosstorm Corporation
#218 - 2012-09-20 18:46:09 UTC
CCP FoxFour

I see you guys are going for the baby step method (you softies you).

Years ago I proposed that NPC AI should behave more like players and not just with regards to podding, if there's a mission critical ship that must be killed to complete the mission it will try and disengage and warp away when the player engages it if the player does not have it tackled. And yes if the player let the target get away, he'd fail the mission. If NPCs behaved like that, it would certainly make for PVE with more PvP style fits and be better training. Mix this with a general NPC bug out of a mission if the NPC fleet falls below certain thresholds and it means that they have to have the mission ship tackled by a certain point in the mission or it would also depart as part of the general bug out.

I do realize that you'd have to balance the salvage a bit in this case since there would be less wrecks left on the field.

also things like new spawns appearing a random amount of time after a trigger instead of immediately.

Make the NPCs behave as the players would.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#219 - 2012-09-20 18:46:30 UTC
Agaetis Byrjun Endalaust wrote:
long story short: not only you're nerfing the 3 most popular ships in EVE but also the way everyone was pve-ing since ever.

This update is breaking salvaging during mission, mining, plex runners, drone boats, everyone who spent months to skill a 2nd/3rd/.... account for some specific task. Moreover it will break every technique previously used (thus making all sites reporting info and 'blitz strategies' totally useless) such as the bring-the-tough-guy-who-gets-aggro and clean the rooms with dps boats with some specific role and fitting.


Yep, agree on every point.

And this I think is the best thing with this change.

By changing something as simple as the AI of ye olde common rat, they've actually created something new.

People can't just rely on previously gathered information and tactics set in stone, people will actually have to engage their brain and think about new ways to achieve their goals.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#220 - 2012-09-20 18:47:55 UTC
Aethlyn wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
As this is a nerf to drones and fleets, maybe a balancing buff is needed for both. Suggestions:

Drones can already auto-aggro anything that is attacking me. Change it so I can order them to attack anything attacking me without the need to target lock. This would be good even if I do not get to select the target, just the ability to say "Pick one and go!" would be good. Edit, or just change it so drones on auto-aggro do this when initially deployed. Right now they sit and wait until a new target attacks me.

Define my drones and members of my fleet to be "cooperative targets". They cooperate with me in getting a target lock, allowing me to lock my drones and fleet members faster. This would help with remote reps.

This would open up a can of worms regarding griefing etc. I understand what you're trying to suggest. That's perfectly fine in a PvE environment. But how about people camping a gate with sentry drones? You wouldn't be able to get away, even if they can't lock you in time for you to warp out (the drones could, as you don't have to lock first). This could definitely screw over balancing regarding locking times, especially when using smaller drones to catch more fragile targets while being in a bigger ship yourself.

The command would be "Attack something that is attacking me". So in the gate camp case above, the ship tying to escape is not attacking, so the drones will not auto aggro, and I cannot get them to.

Right now if you have drones out on aggressive, they will attack anything that starts to attack you without you locking first. But if the entire room is aggroed on you and you then launch drones, they just sit there despite being on aggressive. Im suggesting changing that: When I launch my drones on aggressive, they should attack, not wait for a new target to aggro me.

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