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Dev blog: Brains! NOM NOM!

First post First post First post
Author
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#181 - 2012-09-20 17:51:07 UTC
Aethlyn wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Wait, WHAT? I totally missed this.

You're thinking about making changes to content you're not personally familiar with?

In a game as big and as complex as a MMORPG noone can know everything. I've played Dark Age of Camelot for 7 years and yet I only knew about one third of all contents.


...which is exactly why CCP's repeated attempts at economic balancing have been so laughably bad.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Aprudena Gist
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#182 - 2012-09-20 17:53:30 UTC
These changes will last for about a week and then you will reverse them because it will require attuning all pve content which you aren't willing to do.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#183 - 2012-09-20 17:53:37 UTC
Reginald Zebranky wrote:
NPCs switching targets in some of the more difficult complexes is going to be troublesome for sure.
I know lots of folks rely on being able to manage who the structures/npcs are shooting at.

Sites like

  • The Maze (final room)
  • Dread Guristas fleet staging point (final stage)
  • No Quarter (final stage)

put out an astronomical amount of DPS. A dedicated tanking ship is usually required.

The tank-ship (often a pimped-out Tengu or a capital ship) typically sacrifices dps for tank.
The high-skilled tengu-tanker takes the aggro and lower-skilled players warp in with whatever dps ships they have.

Managing who that structure fires its Citadel Torps or Siege Railguns Batteries at is pretty key.

It is going to be interesting to see how this works out. We're going to have to come up with new techniques on the double.
Hopefully it won't lock lower-skilled players out of participating in these harder plexes entirely.

On a related note: Along with the heavy missile dps nerf this is another hit to nullsec player income. We could sure use an isk buff out here!


I pride myself on being able to set up and implement solutions to PVE related problems/content , in other words adapting. The 1st thing I thought when i hear dof the proposed Heavy Missile nerf (while others screamed blood murder) is what i could do with a Tracking comp'd up Navy Raven lol.

But done wrong this change could make high end null sec exploration content seriously bad and broken beyond our (often incredible) ability to adapt. The 1st 2 rooms of guristas maze are bad, but doable even with switching, but that last room would be impossible if you can't control or predict where that torp is going to go......\


.....and as I was typing that I thought "maybe I could put a smart bombing rokh between our dps ship and the station... see, still trying to adapt lol. But if the rokh takes torp aggro and dies, blegh.

Yea, we'll see, hope CCP thinks this all the way through.
Lysanne Reqetta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2012-09-20 17:57:16 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

Our ultimate goal is that PvP and PvE fits should be the same and a lot of the thought process should be the same. That is... a long way off though.

I'm not sure this is a good idea. Remember, in most cases "NPC" stands for "Not Pod Controlled". NPCs should not be on the same level as capsuleer ships.

Blatant alt posting? In my EVE? It's more likely than you think.

NEVER FORGET - NOVEMBER 2013 - THE GREAT SIGNATURE MASSACRE

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#185 - 2012-09-20 17:58:13 UTC
corestwo wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
corestwo wrote:
So basically you're nerfing nullsec personal income again.

How is this nerfing nullsec income?

It makes exploration considerably harder (repping ships are more likely to die now). Most sites (which will, doubtless, not be redone) also rely on being able to carefully control aggression.


Right, precisely this. The result is less incentive to live in nullsec which is the opposite direction CCP should be going.


But isn't the real key of carefully controlling aggression something that should be based on observing the behaviour of the opponent and adjusting your behaviour to suit?

Not just carefully observe the opponents behaviour over a couple of runs and set down a strict tactic that will always work for a given scenario?

I do agree that it will be harder to grind out isk in null by using a well established tactic, but it will at the same time also be harder to grind out isk using a well established tactic everywhere.

However, I do think that forcing people to engage their brain to grind out isk instead of following a given manual is a good thing.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#186 - 2012-09-20 17:58:20 UTC
Aethlyn wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Wait, WHAT? I totally missed this.

You're thinking about making changes to content you're not personally familiar with?

In a game as big and as complex as a MMORPG noone can know everything. I've played Dark Age of Camelot for 7 years and yet I only knew about one third of all contents.

Also, they don't claim these changes are final, nor that they've tested them everywhere. They especially asked us to test these, because we might play completely different, do different things, etc.

These feedback threads are there fore such things. See something the devs didn't think about? Tell them about it and they'll most likely be happy to look at it.

Modifying a game like Eve it's impossible to keep every possible mission, constellation, etc. in mind. It's just astronomically (pun intended).



This is also the reason why you don't make "broad brush" changes if you can avoid it. Change Mission npc AI, cool, but keep that separate from other things. The problem is that back in the day, ccp simply reused npcs for other things, the mission npcs are also the anomaly and DED npcs ect.

But come now, how does the developers in charge of npc improvements not know fundamental aspects of NPC content, high end DED complexs aren't obscure features like some of the cosmos crap, it's content players do every singe day. New Developers maybe, I dunno, but damn.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#187 - 2012-09-20 18:00:55 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
corestwo wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
corestwo wrote:
So basically you're nerfing nullsec personal income again.

How is this nerfing nullsec income?

It makes exploration considerably harder (repping ships are more likely to die now). Most sites (which will, doubtless, not be redone) also rely on being able to carefully control aggression.


Right, precisely this. The result is less incentive to live in nullsec which is the opposite direction CCP should be going.


But isn't the real key of carefully controlling aggression something that should be based on observing the behaviour of the opponent and adjusting your behaviour to suit?

Not just carefully observe the opponents behaviour over a couple of runs and set down a strict tactic that will always work for a given scenario?

I do agree that it will be harder to grind out isk in null by using a well established tactic, but it will at the same time also be harder to grind out isk using a well established tactic everywhere.

However, I do think that forcing people to engage their brain to grind out isk instead of following a given manual is a good thing.


This initial change isn't doing anything like that.

I rat null sec Forsaken Hubs with a single macharial at time, aggro switching doesn't matter if there is nothing to switch too lol.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#188 - 2012-09-20 18:02:53 UTC
I just tested rattlesnake with heavy drones on DUALITY .. i lost all my drones then got scrambled and couldn't do s*it.
With cruise missiles / torpedoes you can't kill scrambling frigates so i am stuck.
I can just sit back and relax.
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#189 - 2012-09-20 18:05:49 UTC
Spc One wrote:
I just tested rattlesnake with heavy drones on DUALITY .. i lost all my drones then got scrambled and couldn't do s*it.
With cruise missiles / torpedoes you can't kill scrambling frigates so i am stuck.
I can just sit back and relax.
Why didn't you use your drones to kill the scramblers first? Why didn't you use a secondary flight of drones? Why not use smaller drones to kill scramblers faster, and save the larger drones for bigger targets? Why not use sentry drones and use your empty highslots for remote repairing?
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#190 - 2012-09-20 18:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
I also tested angry amarr costums npc's in high sec.
When they attack you, speed of your ship disappears, so you're like immovable enigma, get jammed 100% of the time, but can tank them in maelstrom.

Lol
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#191 - 2012-09-20 18:06:52 UTC
Does CCP plan to follow up on this AI revamp with other enhancements or additions to PVE content? Right now there is a distinct lack of worthwhile content for anything smaller than a battlecruiser, and, while it is a good start, most of the missions and complexes need a lot more than an AI change.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#192 - 2012-09-20 18:07:38 UTC
Spc One wrote:
I just tested rattlesnake with heavy drones on DUALITY .. i lost all my drones then got scrambled and couldn't do s*it.
With cruise missiles / torpedoes you can't kill scrambling frigates so i am stuck.
I can just sit back and relax.


Hmm, just had a similar result with a Rattler, some adjustment in tactics will be needed ;)

But scrambling rats tend to die quite fast to a flight of light drones.

And with 400m3 drone bay one can carry more than one set of drones.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#193 - 2012-09-20 18:09:25 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
Hmm, just had a similar result with a Rattler, some adjustment in tactics will be needed ;)

But scrambling rats tend to die quite fast to a flight of light drones.

And with 400m3 drone bay one can carry more than one set of drones.

Well new tactic is to dump rattlesnake / dominix and train for another more usefull ship.
Rattlesnake / Dominix becomes obsolete.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#194 - 2012-09-20 18:09:36 UTC
Its almost like you could add a target painter and a web to a Rattlesnake to make killing tackling frigates easier

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Feldercarb
Shrouded in secret
#195 - 2012-09-20 18:10:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Feldercarb
This is why CCP fails and keeps failing: Working on creating new ways to nerf things while not concentrating on what you said you were going to fix. Sure I want deadspace loot to be even more expensive because those that farm it will have a harder time or not even bother. In turn newer players would have to do more high sec missions as a peon to save more ISK (also at increased risk) to buy overpriced items, while PLEX prices drop.
So the translation is: We want more people doing PVP and not PVE, we also want to reduce the circulation of ISK and devalue plex because those who farm for them by selling deadspace items to pay rent will not bother. Your messing with a delicate circle here: Those who buy PLEX with real life money from CCP to sell for ISK because they are too lazy/busy with a job and family to farm items, and those who are poor or frugal that don't mind grinding for items to sell as long as they can sell those items to buy game time.

This is not a rant about new brains this is a rant about fixing things that are not broken and wondering why people leave the game. I have been playing since beta and still feel like this is beta. Stop "fixing" things that are not broken and fix the things that are clearly broken and release some new content. Why are you creating "new things to test", new things to be broken, instead of fixing the stuff that IS BROKEN? Every time you introduce something you risk creating more bugs to squash, at least take this risk for something interesting, something someone would actually WANT to come back to the game for! Hmm should I go back to EVE? Its mission rats are harder, making it harder to grind ISK which is already a boring grind, making it less boring is not by making it more risky! If you want it more fun you can start by introducing new missions to go along with the ones that are more than 10 years old. This would be new content, this would be exciting, not tweaking code. From experience when I come back to eve I don't want new mechanics, I want the same old eve with new content and fixed bugs, if I see a coded AI change it must be tied in with a reason. The first thing I would ask is " a code change? why a code change? Oh I see.. while I have been gone they introduced ship X, which does Y, which is new, and in order to compensate, the did this to the code, so it all makes sense to a returning player. As a returning player I don't want to see altered mechanics I want to see new content with the same mechanics. I only want to see new mechanics introduced for reasons that warrant new mechanics such as new mods or ships that REQUIRE the NPCs to adapt to these mechanics. If your going to add code and break content at least make it worth coming back to EVE for. Not "we nerfed more stuff, come back to EVE".
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#196 - 2012-09-20 18:11:14 UTC
Every mission is the same so what is the point of adding new missions

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#197 - 2012-09-20 18:11:58 UTC
Oh I forgot there is that mission where you have to pick up a load of Quafe in a shuttle

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#198 - 2012-09-20 18:12:45 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
Its almost like you could add a target painter and a web to a Rattlesnake to make killing tackling frigates easier

When npc's are 70km away... it's hard to recall drones faster, so you loose all heavy drones.
As i said this mechanic is broken for high sec as you can't smartbomb.
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
#199 - 2012-09-20 18:16:07 UTC
Spc One wrote:
When npc's are 70km away... it's hard to recall drones faster, so you loose all heavy drones.
70k are for sentry drones. Most active drone pilots won't use heavy drones until 20-25k since Gardes can easily track (with omnis) most things that close.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#200 - 2012-09-20 18:17:27 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
Spc One wrote:
I just tested rattlesnake with heavy drones on DUALITY .. i lost all my drones then got scrambled and couldn't do s*it.
With cruise missiles / torpedoes you can't kill scrambling frigates so i am stuck.
I can just sit back and relax.


Hmm, just had a similar result with a Rattler, some adjustment in tactics will be needed ;)

But scrambling rats tend to die quite fast to a flight of light drones.

And with 400m3 drone bay one can carry more than one set of drones.

So if i get stuck like that on TQ ... can i petition GM to "unstuck me" ?