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Testing ASB adjustments on Duality

First post First post
Author
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#121 - 2012-10-02 18:35:39 UTC
Nikuno wrote:

While I get the spirit of what you mean about active tanking it doesn't work that way in reality. Every active tank I run outside of pve relies on cap boosters.


Accepted, but I still hold ASBs are closer to LSEs in their dependence on cap, and much further away from true active tanks. Let me see if I can draw a continuum of tank features:

ACTIVE

a) HP gain unlimited in theory, but restricted in practice by cap charges and capacitor amount and regen rate
b) Vulnerable to neuting; HP gain can be disabled by neuting

BUFFER

a) HP gain strictly limited, no modification possible
b) Invulnerable to neuting; HP gain only overcome by moar DPS

ASBs

a) HP gain strictly limited to cap charges available; the true active option is prohibitively cap-intensive
b) Invulnerable to neuting; HP gain only overcome by moar DPS

Or do people think I'm crazy for thinking that this puts ASBs closer to "buffer"? Lol
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#122 - 2012-10-02 18:42:22 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Regarding the question of what we're trying to accomplish with the ASBs, then (as has been stated by some in this thread) the goal is to allow for a temporary massive boost.


This can easily be accomplished at no harm to PVE by fiddling with the overload stats of both shield boosters and armour reppers. A new module in the form of the ASB was not necessary.
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#123 - 2012-10-02 21:47:30 UTC
Remove them. Fix the problems ASBs were meant to address in a different way. They're a blasphemy to balance and make idiots happy.

I like my idiots sad.
Tatiana W1sla
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2012-10-04 09:05:59 UTC
with this fix we need the navy cap boosters 25/50, and maybe a little buff to the small ASB that at the moment is useless. Overall a good change as they were not supposed to be a permanent capless tank. This way you cannot chain 2 ASB until you run out of cap boosters
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2012-10-04 10:07:36 UTC
As others have iterated, all they needed to do was limit it to one per ship and here's why:

Ancils were designed to make active shield tanking viable without links+crystals (I have a maxed out boosting alt and ancils have made me leave her at home most occasions), the problem is when you have two and you can perma tank until your cargohold runs out of charges, the same as a regular booster, so there's no disadvantage at all.

Removing one booster creates a tension of having enough dps to finish the opposition before depleting charges, or fitting mobility or tackle mods to allow a "tactical retreat".

So many people have tried to explain this and nooooo one has said in ernest "no dual x-l ancils are a.ok. boss", and yet you just say well you know the story...

The only other adjustments that need to be made are bring xl cycle time back in line with other xl boosters and nerfing mediums a bit as well, as they are over powered on frigates, where fights are almost always over before charges become an issue (except when fighting dual td condor DAMN YOU!!!)

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#126 - 2012-10-04 21:04:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Akturous wrote:

Removing one booster creates a tension of having enough dps to finish the opposition before depleting charges, or fitting mobility or tackle mods to allow a "tactical retreat".

The rest is also damn funny, but this is plain hillarious; I hope you realise the same is true for dual boosters, right - bring enough DPS to wear it down despite the healing power.

In reality, dual ASBs have never been a problem since all they provide is merely some improvement over conventional active tanking, which is aknowledged to be fine all over the board or even underpowered; problem is exactly with ASB stats allowing single ASB setups to outperform in comparison to passive tanking, already dominant in EVE.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#127 - 2012-10-06 13:07:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
I understand what the dude above is and has been atempting to say for some time now. I also think there is some over analyzing of a simple issue on his part v0v back in the day that use to be a serious issue (over analyzing). Which lead to so many bad mechanics and just silly to begin with.

However, I don't fully agree and this issue can be delt with by simply limited these modules to 1 per ship.

Eve-online can be like the chinese game of GO, instead of chess. Simplistic in its design and complicated/difficult to play.

Another way might even be increasing the powergrid usage of xl to like 1500pg and mediums to 75pg and start NERFING boost amount or duration.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Nicoli Voldkif
Legion of the Obsidion Star
#128 - 2012-10-06 16:50:05 UTC
Anyone toss around the possibility of leaving them like they with the exception of having them cost the current capacitor of an equal sized shield booster with charges? That way you have the trade off of a much higher active tank with a ASB but your limited on charges and can still be neuted.
Kelleris
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#129 - 2012-10-06 17:26:15 UTC
I really like the idea of a stacking penalty. If you used -33% boost amount for each ASB after the first, then pretty much only 1 or 2 would be viable. This would work out to 66% of one ASB's boosting amount continuously if you had 2 of them that you staggered, or 133% of one ASB's boosting amount if you ran them both at the same time. Maybe 25% would be more appropriate, that would give 75% / 150% for the two cases I mentioned above. CCP could tweak this to make dual ASBs (staggered) about the same as a regular shield booster + cap booster, but with the option to run them both at the same time if a bigger burst i needed (eg. the guy you are shooting is in hull and your are bleeding hull between reps).
This would mean the second one would be far less effective without nerfing single ASBs and I don't really think anyone thinks the single ASB is unbalanced.

TL;DR = Don't nerf the thing that is working as intended in order to nerf your unintended consequences.
FunkBoi69
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2012-10-06 19:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: FunkBoi69
Its simple, make it so that you can only fit one per ship. If you are going to reduce its capacity or even if you're not either make it so that it automatically reloads one charge every 10 secs or make it so that you can use the booster while it is reloading, this will atleast bring it more in line with active tanking and give a cool aspect to the module and make it slightly more stratgic while nerfing it. I personally think if it reloaded a booster while active or inactive up to its maximum capacity every so many secs would be the best option
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#131 - 2012-10-06 20:26:21 UTC
Lol, there's a pharisee uprising or something? I find it utterly odd how passive tank apologists got yet another OP option (single ASB) and want to abuse it as long as possible while trying to bring the active tank option (dual ASB) down at the same time. No way this can be good!

It's like proposing to introduce a 99% web and then make it 'balanced' by limiting to one per ship. Insanity? Apparently, not for some.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2012-10-07 07:58:56 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Akturous wrote:

Removing one booster creates a tension of having enough dps to finish the opposition before depleting charges, or fitting mobility or tackle mods to allow a "tactical retreat".

The rest is also damn funny, but this is plain hillarious; I hope you realise the same is true for dual boosters, right - bring enough DPS to wear it down despite the healing power.

In reality, dual ASBs have never been a problem since all they provide is merely some improvement over conventional active tanking, which is aknowledged to be fine all over the board or even underpowered; problem is exactly with ASB stats allowing single ASB setups to outperform in comparison to passive tanking, already dominant in EVE.


Dual boosters lets you tank enormous dps until your cargo hold runs out and even longer if you use a hauler. One booster gives you 13 shots, that's it.

Your comparison to a 99% web proves that you are infact the result of a poor incest family that no doubt grew up next to Chernobyl, because there's no other way you could be that mong.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#133 - 2012-10-07 08:24:55 UTC
Active tank allows you to tank enormous dps until your cargo hold runs out and even longer if you use a hauler. One plate gives you 4200 HP, that's it.

Nerf active tank, yeah.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2012-10-07 10:16:42 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Active tank allows you to tank enormous dps until your cargo hold runs out and even longer if you use a hauler. One plate gives you 4200 HP, that's it.

Nerf active tank, yeah.


So we agree? or are you seriously saying 1 plate is better than an xl ancil...

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#135 - 2012-10-07 11:29:33 UTC
Nope, it's you saying 2-3 med reps plus a cap booster are better than 1600mm plate. In terms of tanking specifics, fitting and trade-offs that's pretty much the same comparison as dual ASB vs. single one.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2012-10-08 01:46:01 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Nope, it's you saying 2-3 med reps plus a cap booster are better than 1600mm plate. In terms of tanking specifics, fitting and trade-offs that's pretty much the same comparison as dual ASB vs. single one.


I never said any such thing, like I said, not only are you a mong, but you can't read.

3 reps on a myrm is certainly better than one xl asb, because you can tank for sooooo long. You really are being silly and ASBs are not balanced when you have two, the end.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

Doddy
Excidium.
#137 - 2012-10-09 15:39:51 UTC
Onslaughtor wrote:
If you want to fix the ASB, just make a new modified one and seed it. At the same time stop seeding the old one. This was the original plan from what I remember. Economics will take care of the rest.


Someone has a couple of thousand xl asbs stashed away huh.
Doddy
Excidium.
#138 - 2012-10-09 15:46:43 UTC
Single asbs are balanced, multiple asbs are broken, answer seems obvious tbh. I would even suggest buffing asb capacity while making them 1 per ship.
FunkBoi69
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2012-10-09 20:34:08 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Single asbs are balanced, multiple asbs are broken, answer seems obvious tbh. I would even suggest buffing asb capacity while making them 1 per ship.


I pretty much agree, i think they should reload a booster every 10 or 15 secs automatically whether active or not instead of one long 60 sec reload.
Mixu Paatelainen
Eve Refinery
#140 - 2012-10-10 17:45:10 UTC
Scale boost with cap charge size. Break link with crystals, blue pill etc.