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HEAVY MISSILES NERFED, switch to assault heavy missiles?
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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-09-21 07:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Narcotics Dealer wrote:
you'll be able to hit from 40kms for 450-550dps with javelin hams


And one may note, that s a lot of damage for pretty much any other medium short range system. You are getting exotic at that point with pulses or ACs.....well range bonused HACs anyway.
t
Ishtar can get there, but I dare anyone to call that boat op.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#82 - 2012-09-21 07:50:33 UTC
Personally I think sensor dampners and tracking disruptors should be chance based too. You know, Similar to ECM. Also, sensor dampners are'ot as effective as tracking disruptors and I don't need or want to go into why.

As for this being a problem limited to faction warfare. Yeah it's because in null I can own all the r3t@rds there like it's no tomorrow, so I don't have a problem with using cruisers, battlecruisers and even battleships solo there.

Basically, the frigate pilots are superior and most frigates in these faction warfare fleets have some kind of electronic warfare other than a stasis webifier and warp scrambler. So, they run frigate fleets the way they're suppose (not terribubble). Clearly, you start to quickly notice the preference for tracking disruptors and to a lesser extent ECM. Which have always been since I started playing the game in late 2007; the most effective and only 2 forms of electronic warfare other htan webs and warp whatevers worth using in pvp...

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Tassian Marrix
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-09-21 11:31:20 UTC
So it seems i shouldn't have trained in missiles as my main weapon system. Wonder if I can get the skills refunded.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#84 - 2012-09-21 16:02:16 UTC
Tassian Marrix wrote:
So it seems i shouldn't have trained in missiles as my main weapon system. Wonder if I can get the skills refunded.


I think it's funny how the missile camp is basically divided between people who can only see the HML nerf and the rest of us who are lusting over a potential 30% explo rad TC. I don't think you properly understand how much better missiles are going to be. We have been arguing for this for literally years, and sacrificing OP HML is just not a big deal.

Missile are going to **** face until they nerf the **** out of them. They are going to be that overpowered. You just don't even know. MUAHAHAHAHAHA.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#85 - 2012-09-21 17:21:23 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tassian Marrix wrote:
So it seems i shouldn't have trained in missiles as my main weapon system. Wonder if I can get the skills refunded.


I think it's funny how the missile camp is basically divided between people who can only see the HML nerf and the rest of us who are lusting over a potential 30% explo rad TC. I don't think you properly understand how much better missiles are going to be. We have been arguing for this for literally years, and sacrificing OP HML is just not a big deal.

Missile are going to **** face until they nerf the **** out of them. They are going to be that overpowered. You just don't even know. MUAHAHAHAHAHA.

-Liang



Dude.


Shut up!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#86 - 2012-09-23 06:55:28 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
It will be far from useless. You get a little less range, which is well over due, and a little less dps. However, you can fit a targeting computer in the mids, sacrificing some tank for greatly improved damage application. Also keep in mind that the Drake will get a revamp along with every other BC in time, and I think it will all pan out very well.


20% dps less with all missiles, including t2.....
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#87 - 2012-09-23 06:56:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tassian Marrix wrote:
So it seems i shouldn't have trained in missiles as my main weapon system. Wonder if I can get the skills refunded.


I think it's funny how the missile camp is basically divided between people who can only see the HML nerf and the rest of us who are lusting over a potential 30% explo rad TC. I don't think you properly understand how much better missiles are going to be. We have been arguing for this for literally years, and sacrificing OP HML is just not a big deal.

Missile are going to **** face until they nerf the **** out of them. They are going to be that overpowered. You just don't even know. MUAHAHAHAHAHA.

-Liang


Ever fly a Cerb? Heavy missile dps is laughable and now 20% less....yeah.......
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#88 - 2012-09-23 06:59:19 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Smabs wrote:
I don't think HAM's will be all that useful even with the buff.

You're still talking about ~30km range on a drake with 2 TEs. Because of the way missiles work that will effectively be 25km or so. Javelins will go to 45 or so, but with similar DPS to current HML drakes. In other words a HAM drake will do okay to good damage to 25km, and mediocre damage to 45 after a reload.

Essentially drakes and tengus will be removed from small gangs as a kiting option. I'd expect to see most smallish gangs switching to tier 3 battlecruisers or arty hurricanes. Since you don't need t2 guns for canes or tornados, and since drakes will present much less of a threat to cynabals and vagas, we'll probably be back to minmatar online.


What an ignorant and arrogant opinion. A few comments:
- Pulse lasers have one of the highest optimals in the game for close range weapons. You can generally expect that unbonused HPL will not hit to 30km even with Scorch. It is and always has been one of the strongest kiting weapons in the game due to fantastic damage projection. Why do you feel that 45km HAMs is too short range to kite with? That's outside of even Loki boosted point range.
- There's no reason you won't be able to use HML to kite.
- You need T2 for HML far less than you need it for Artillery/Beams/Rails. The inability to use T2 LR ammo is crippling on those platforms, but not for HML.
- Minmatar are getting raped by these balancing changes. When was the last time you saw a Rifter and thought "Oh look, a good frigate!". Even the Slasher is generally bad when compared to the other options out there.

-Liang


Minnie are the most common used ships in pvp and hold the best of ship types in most categories.. Where do you think Winmatar came from?
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#89 - 2012-09-23 07:01:19 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Smabs wrote:
Meta 4 neuts should let you get it on there. I'd say the standard would be 425s and 1 medium/1 small.

I'm not arguing that the drake doesn't need a nerf. I'm saying that the current suggestion will make it obsolete.


Not sure, we don't have numbers on how the mods will effect everything.

I have a Drake that slings missiles 110km, so obsolete, 80km doing 350 DPS us acceptable for a medium weapon system.

If you want to brawl with the canes and taller, HAM --------> again just like the rest of the BCs, no one size fits all Drake.


You must have never used Hams.. Because they absolutely suck.. Think rockets before fix..
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#90 - 2012-09-23 19:40:33 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tassian Marrix wrote:
So it seems i shouldn't have trained in missiles as my main weapon system. Wonder if I can get the skills refunded.


I think it's funny how the missile camp is basically divided between people who can only see the HML nerf and the rest of us who are lusting over a potential 30% explo rad TC. I don't think you properly understand how much better missiles are going to be. We have been arguing for this for literally years, and sacrificing OP HML is just not a big deal.

Missile are going to **** face until they nerf the **** out of them. They are going to be that overpowered. You just don't even know. MUAHAHAHAHAHA.

-Liang


Ever fly a Cerb? Heavy missile dps is laughable and now 20% less....yeah.......


HMLs aren't the only missiles. If these changes go through then we are going to see some very interesting new doctrines.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Lili Lu
#91 - 2012-09-23 20:45:24 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
**** face MUAHAHAHAHAHA.

-Liang


Dude.

Shut up!

Dudes,

We don't know the numbers yet.

But yeah, crisis/opportunity, and all that jazz.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2012-09-23 20:48:59 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tassian Marrix wrote:
So it seems i shouldn't have trained in missiles as my main weapon system. Wonder if I can get the skills refunded.


I think it's funny how the missile camp is basically divided between people who can only see the HML nerf and the rest of us who are lusting over a potential 30% explo rad TC. I don't think you properly understand how much better missiles are going to be. We have been arguing for this for literally years, and sacrificing OP HML is just not a big deal.

Missile are going to **** face until they nerf the **** out of them. They are going to be that overpowered. You just don't even know. MUAHAHAHAHAHA.

-Liang


After seeing that 75km+ HAMs would be possible if Tracking Computers gave missiles 30% more range, I seriously doubt they'll go with 30%.
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#93 - 2012-09-23 21:52:05 UTC
my only issue is the damage they can pull at ranges past 54km. My drones can't even go far enough unless i sacrifice a highslot for a drone link.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#94 - 2012-09-23 21:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyella Stormborn
Hagika wrote:

20% dps less with all missiles, including t2.....



Until you factor in TC's and TE's, which will put them the same if not higher. Its 20% less dps with all Heavy Missiles, Base. Not all missiles period. Or did they now change the base damage reduction to be on all classes of missile?

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Al Anders
Star Revival
#95 - 2012-09-24 07:53:21 UTC
Damn guys. That is a hidden Amarr boost :) All Amarr short range missile platforms (maladiction, sacr, vengeance ect.) and all SB's with TC/TE gonna just f***face the universe. Cool
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#96 - 2012-09-24 09:28:46 UTC
Do we really need ANOTHER thread filled with really bad people that think this nerf isn't justified?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-09-26 10:02:01 UTC
Roime wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:

Not the ship, the missiles. HMs just get rid of Frigates and Cruisers faster. CMs get rid of BS faster. Swings and round abouts, but on balance HMs still faster overall IMHO.

I don't see why that means they needed a nerf, all CCP needed to do was change the NPC ship balance on Lvl 4s if they needed to be. I don't accept they do - happy with them as they were.


Ok, so the missiles were better? Sounds pretty logical that they were balanced then, no?



The point is, when you compare two systems (Cruises and Heavies here), then there are two possible answers if one is performing better than the other. First option - HML are OP, Cruise Missiles are fine. Second option, HML are fine, Cruises are UP. Now you can examine a bit more - do Cruise Missiles play *any* role in PvP? No? Hum ... guess why.

And to the ships compared: CNR beats Drake *grand*time in PvE/Missions. Its not comfortable sometimes, but a LOT faster. Its also faster than a Tengu in many missions if kinetic damage is not the best choice. But the Tengu is faster in others, much easier to fly and fit and therefor more fun for many people.

With a buff to Cruises that would maybe change, and I would for sure like to see Caldari Missile BS be back on top (they dont suck completely for PvE, but there are better options than them right now, and they suck hard for PvP).
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#98 - 2012-09-26 10:04:00 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tassian Marrix wrote:
So it seems i shouldn't have trained in missiles as my main weapon system. Wonder if I can get the skills refunded.


I think it's funny how the missile camp is basically divided between people who can only see the HML nerf and the rest of us who are lusting over a potential 30% explo rad TC. I don't think you properly understand how much better missiles are going to be. We have been arguing for this for literally years, and sacrificing OP HML is just not a big deal.

Missile are going to **** face until they nerf the **** out of them. They are going to be that overpowered. You just don't even know. MUAHAHAHAHAHA.

-Liang


Ever fly a Cerb? Heavy missile dps is laughable and now 20% less....yeah.......


HMLs aren't the only missiles. If these changes go through then we are going to see some very interesting new doctrines.


HMLs are the only missiles which are of use in Caldari combat ships above frig size right now, except Torps in a SB. Thats why nerfing them before buffing other stuff sucks. And they are only really competitive in just 2 ships!
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-09-26 10:11:25 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:


The only thing I read from your post is a good argument for nerfing the base strength of TDs and that they should affect missiles in roder to level the playing field.


In order to level the playing field give Caldari viable missile PvP ships above frig size different from Tengu and Drake, give missiles wrecking hits, falloff and instant damage. Or give every race the chance to fit every weapon platform available, remove racial bonuses, adjust ships fitting hardpoints, grid and so on.

I bet you wont see HML on every ship, but instead ACs ...
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#100 - 2012-09-26 10:35:30 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:

HMLs are the only missiles which are of use in Caldari combat ships above frig size right now, except Torps in a SB. Thats why nerfing them before buffing other stuff sucks. And they are only really competitive in just 2 ships!


But missiles are getting buffed at the same time. The ship penalties are being removed (Sig for Fury, Speed for Precision). All missiles will get a very considerable buff from the TE/TC change. ACs are only good because of tracking enhancers. When HAMs and Torps get velocity and explosion velocity bonuses from TEs & TCs, they'll be hugely improved.

Oh and Cruise might well become viable again. Dual-TC Ravens could be very interesting indeed. Lots of alpha (well, volley) and 63% better explosion velocity along with the removal of the ship penalties for T2 missiles... yeah that will change a lot of calculations.


You're making the classic EVE forum mistake of only looking at one aspect of a proposed change and ignoring all the others. Personally, I agree that a -20% DPS nerf for HMLs is too much. What I am saying is that missile weapons as a whole will be significantly improved. I hope that CCP dial back that -20% to no more than 10% or 12.5%, but even if they don't, then recovering HAMs, Torps and Cruise as viable PvP (and greatly improved PvE) weapons will be worth it.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016