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HEAVY MISSILES NERFED, switch to assault heavy missiles?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#61 - 2012-09-19 21:00:20 UTC
Smabs wrote:
I don't think HAM's will be all that useful even with the buff.

You're still talking about ~30km range on a drake with 2 TEs. Because of the way missiles work that will effectively be 25km or so. Javelins will go to 45 or so, but with similar DPS to current HML drakes. In other words a HAM drake will do okay to good damage to 25km, and mediocre damage to 45 after a reload.

Essentially drakes and tengus will be removed from small gangs as a kiting option. I'd expect to see most smallish gangs switching to tier 3 battlecruisers or arty hurricanes. Since you don't need t2 guns for canes or tornados, and since drakes will present much less of a threat to cynabals and vagas, we'll probably be back to minmatar online.


What an ignorant and arrogant opinion. A few comments:
- Pulse lasers have one of the highest optimals in the game for close range weapons. You can generally expect that unbonused HPL will not hit to 30km even with Scorch. It is and always has been one of the strongest kiting weapons in the game due to fantastic damage projection. Why do you feel that 45km HAMs is too short range to kite with? That's outside of even Loki boosted point range.
- There's no reason you won't be able to use HML to kite.
- You need T2 for HML far less than you need it for Artillery/Beams/Rails. The inability to use T2 LR ammo is crippling on those platforms, but not for HML.
- Minmatar are getting raped by these balancing changes. When was the last time you saw a Rifter and thought "Oh look, a good frigate!". Even the Slasher is generally bad when compared to the other options out there.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#62 - 2012-09-19 21:41:08 UTC
Oh NO! HML are being brought into line with other LR weapon systems! Cry

Get over it you bunch of whiners!!

Now the drake and cane are going to lose their popularity because they are being reigned in. GOOD!

As for missiles themselves have an actual look at the new stats. They will be just as effective as other LR weapon systems (comparable damage with multiple ways to buff/debuff them)

I for one will fly more missile ships because of these changes. Love those HAM's!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2012-09-19 21:44:38 UTC
Roime wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:

Not the ship, the missiles. HMs just get rid of Frigates and Cruisers faster. CMs get rid of BS faster. Swings and round abouts, but on balance HMs still faster overall IMHO.

I don't see why that means they needed a nerf, all CCP needed to do was change the NPC ship balance on Lvl 4s if they needed to be. I don't accept they do - happy with them as they were.


Ok, so the missiles were better? Sounds pretty logical that they were balanced then, no?



You're either being disingenuous or deliberately obtuse. Quit mischaracterizing him.

HMs were better for frigates/cruisers. CMs were better for BSs. There was no balancing required, unless your point is that the entire game should be balanced around lvl 4 PVE missions.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-09-19 22:54:39 UTC
Someone did the maths in the other thread, cba to dig it out, basically new HML stats put it firmly on par with Arties, Rails and Beams, as they finally should be.

I lied :o
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-09-20 01:00:29 UTC
Quote:
What an ignorant and arrogant opinion. A few comments:
- Pulse lasers have one of the highest optimals in the game for close range weapons. You can generally expect that unbonused HPL will not hit to 30km even with Scorch. It is and always has been one of the strongest kiting weapons in the game due to fantastic damage projection. Why do you feel that 45km HAMs is too short range to kite with? That's outside of even Loki boosted point range.
- There's no reason you won't be able to use HML to kite.
- You need T2 for HML far less than you need it for Artillery/Beams/Rails. The inability to use T2 LR ammo is crippling on those platforms, but not for HML.
- Minmatar are getting raped by these balancing changes. When was the last time you saw a Rifter and thought "Oh look, a good frigate!". Even the Slasher is generally bad when compared to the other options out there.


You're comparing things as if only medium guns exist in a vacuum. You could use HML or HAMS to kite but there will be lots of better options.

What will happen is that people will use short range guns on tier 3 battlecruisers, since they offer better damage projection and tracking on a more agile ship. Arty will still have the high alpha so packs of hurricanes could definitely work.

Nobody will use medium beams or rails. I mean seriously, who is going to think a beam harbinger with 270 dps, awful tracking and 600 volley is actually worth using.

And yeah, minmatar frigates are pretty poor these days.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#66 - 2012-09-20 10:30:08 UTC
The issue is that HAMs are getting nerfed too because of the proposed changes to Tracking Disruptors. A ship traveling 1100ms or so away from a HAM ship will already cut the effective range of HAMs by half. Turret ships deal with this kiting tactic by switching to Scorch/Barrage/Null. HAMs don't have this option. With TDs cutting HAM range further, HAMs will be rendered completely useless.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#67 - 2012-09-20 12:16:00 UTC
There's nothing wrong with heavy assault missiles and I've used them personally versus after burning frigates, with a stasis webifier applied (they hurt). Seriously though. When it comes to applying damage on everything cruiser and above, you're doing full damage with heavy assault missiles. The purposed changes won't effect this if anything heavy assault missiles will become better.


However, tracking disruptors effecting missiles is a bad idea.


Unlike many in 0.0; low security space and faction warfare produce SUPERIOR frigate pilots. Faction warfare has become alot more difficult than I remember. Mainly because of wide spread proliferation of frigates using tracking disruptors (alot more compotent pilots to, but it could just be the gallente). Anyway. I've literary near stopped flying cruisers and battlecruisers altogether because every other frigate has a f*cking tracking disruptor.


These missile ships are an effective counter to that proliferation: Drake, Caracal Navy Issue, Osprey Navy Issue and the Caracal. "drone boats" are also effective, but yeah... I have come to realize how lame Tracking disruption is and I must say it's almost as lame as ECM.


Missiles shouldn't be effected by tracking disruptors and it would also compound the divergence of ECM and tracking disruption from the other forms of electronic warfare. I rather limit the application of electronic warfare modules like ECM, remote sensor Dampners and tracking disruptors. That way of thinking may hurt those modules effectiveness but, I believe it would increase the fun factor and limit the amount of complaining in this game. Leads to a happier player base which is good for CCP's wallet. basically don't give players more reasons to complain...

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#68 - 2012-09-20 12:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Major Killz wrote:
There's nothing wrong with heavy assault missiles and I've used them personally versus after burning frigates, with a stasis webifier applied (they hurt). Seriously though. When it comes to applying damage on everything cruiser and above, you're doing full damage with heavy assault missiles. The purposed changes won't effect this if anything heavy assault missiles will become better.
How will HAMs get better when they're not touching HAMs but giving medium turrets a buff to their fitting requirements and introducing TDs that affect missiles? HAMs can only get worse than they currently are, and currently, they're really not very good. The velocity change proposal is only affecting Heavy Missiles, perhaps you got confused.

If a frig is letting itself get webbed then it's already failed at kiting and has nothing to do with the quality of HAMs. HAMs have a paper range of about 20km with faction missiles. But if you're chasing something that's burning away from you at 1100+ ms you lose half that range due to missile travel. It's very easy to kite a HAM fit unless it's on a bonused ship like a Cerberus. This is why HMLs are used over HAMs even for most under 20km engagements. So I feel if they want to nerf the HML so that it falls in line with other long range medium weaponry, they need to buff the HAM a little so that it steps up to be competitive in the close range department.
Denuo Secus
#69 - 2012-09-20 15:25:10 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
The issue is that HAMs are getting nerfed too because of the proposed changes to Tracking Disruptors. A ship traveling 1100ms or so away from a HAM ship will already cut the effective range of HAMs by half. Turret ships deal with this kiting tactic by switching to Scorch/Barrage/Null. HAMs don't have this option. With TDs cutting HAM range further, HAMs will be rendered completely useless.


They have: Javelins. Since the ship penalty will be removed from them I'd say they are quite interesting now.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#70 - 2012-09-20 16:04:01 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
The issue is that HAMs are getting nerfed too because of the proposed changes to Tracking Disruptors. A ship traveling 1100ms or so away from a HAM ship will already cut the effective range of HAMs by half. Turret ships deal with this kiting tactic by switching to Scorch/Barrage/Null. HAMs don't have this option. With TDs cutting HAM range further, HAMs will be rendered completely useless.


People said the same thing about Autocannons and Vagabonds. Turns out they were 100% right... Ohwai-----

It'll be just as true with missiles.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#71 - 2012-09-20 16:05:59 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
There's nothing wrong with heavy assault missiles and I've used them personally versus after burning frigates, with a stasis webifier applied (they hurt). Seriously though. When it comes to applying damage on everything cruiser and above, you're doing full damage with heavy assault missiles. The purposed changes won't effect this if anything heavy assault missiles will become better.
How will HAMs get better when they're not touching HAMs but giving medium turrets a buff to their fitting requirements and introducing TDs that affect missiles? HAMs can only get worse than they currently are, and currently, they're really not very good. The velocity change proposal is only affecting Heavy Missiles, perhaps you got confused.

If a frig is letting itself get webbed then it's already failed at kiting and has nothing to do with the quality of HAMs. HAMs have a paper range of about 20km with faction missiles. But if you're chasing something that's burning away from you at 1100+ ms you lose half that range due to missile travel. It's very easy to kite a HAM fit unless it's on a bonused ship like a Cerberus. This is why HMLs are used over HAMs even for most under 20km engagements. So I feel if they want to nerf the HML so that it falls in line with other long range medium weaponry, they need to buff the HAM a little so that it steps up to be competitive in the close range department.


Who said that every frig kites? There are an incredible number of close range gank AB frigates out there. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#72 - 2012-09-20 16:06:58 UTC
Smabs wrote:
Quote:
What an ignorant and arrogant opinion. A few comments:
- Pulse lasers have one of the highest optimals in the game for close range weapons. You can generally expect that unbonused HPL will not hit to 30km even with Scorch. It is and always has been one of the strongest kiting weapons in the game due to fantastic damage projection. Why do you feel that 45km HAMs is too short range to kite with? That's outside of even Loki boosted point range.
- There's no reason you won't be able to use HML to kite.
- You need T2 for HML far less than you need it for Artillery/Beams/Rails. The inability to use T2 LR ammo is crippling on those platforms, but not for HML.
- Minmatar are getting raped by these balancing changes. When was the last time you saw a Rifter and thought "Oh look, a good frigate!". Even the Slasher is generally bad when compared to the other options out there.


You're comparing things as if only medium guns exist in a vacuum. You could use HML or HAMS to kite but there will be lots of better options.

What will happen is that people will use short range guns on tier 3 battlecruisers, since they offer better damage projection and tracking on a more agile ship. Arty will still have the high alpha so packs of hurricanes could definitely work.

Nobody will use medium beams or rails. I mean seriously, who is going to think a beam harbinger with 270 dps, awful tracking and 600 volley is actually worth using.

And yeah, minmatar frigates are pretty poor these days.


I'll be really surprised if HAMs don't become one of the premier weapon platforms post HML nerf.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gabrielle Lamb
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2012-09-20 19:11:28 UTC
Personally I'll be running split missile systems in PVE. Having already experimented heavily with HAMs I've come to the conclusion that a using them exclusively just doesn't work. You end up getting caught in a Deadspace pocket, 60km from a pair of stasis webifier towers and you're royally ******. Havent quite figured out how I'll do it yet but for my Tengu i recon I'll be running either a 2+4, 3+3 og 4+2 split between CN Heavy Launchers and T2 HAM Launchers.

IMO though, these changes are a huge loss for EVE. I'd rather see more longrange cruisers capable of doing decent DPS then a bunch of immobile space-bricks capable of doing something in between jack and ****.
Kinet
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-09-20 19:55:11 UTC
I think you missed the other blog about the new changes to the Thorax. Better tracking, a 4th mid slot and more speed. Who is going to waste time in a Caldari missile boat when the Thorax is going to be the new pwnmobile?
Ginger Barbarella
#75 - 2012-09-20 21:39:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
What an ignorant and arrogant opinion.



Don't hold back... what do you REALLY think? Roll

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-09-20 21:56:42 UTC
Quote:
I'll be really surprised if HAMs don't become one of the premier weapon platforms post HML nerf.


Uh, no.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#77 - 2012-09-20 22:10:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Smabs wrote:
Quote:
I'll be really surprised if HAMs don't become one of the premier weapon platforms post HML nerf.


Uh, no.


Shrug. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "premier", but when you can suddenly fit modules to overcome all of their weaknesses (range and damage application) and figure in their high damage to start with... I'd say they'll be highly competitive.

Edit: not to mention the fact that the damage delay will be reduced, but that isn't HAM-specific.
Lili Lu
#78 - 2012-09-21 00:28:29 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
However, tracking disruptors effecting missiles is a bad idea.

Unlike many in 0.0; low security space and faction warfare produce SUPERIOR frigate pilots. Faction warfare has become alot more difficult than I remember. Mainly because of wide spread proliferation of frigates using tracking disruptors (alot more compotent pilots to, but it could just be the gallente). Anyway. I've literary near stopped flying cruisers and battlecruisers altogether because every other frigate has a f*cking tracking disruptor.

These missile ships are an effective counter to that proliferation: Drake, Caracal Navy Issue, Osprey Navy Issue and the Caracal. "drone boats" are also effective, but yeah... I have come to realize how lame Tracking disruption is and I must say it's almost as lame as ECM.

Missiles shouldn't be effected by tracking disruptors and it would also compound the divergence of ECM and tracking disruption from the other forms of electronic warfare. I rather limit the application of electronic warfare modules like ECM, remote sensor Dampners and tracking disruptors. That way of thinking may hurt those modules effectiveness but, I believe it would increase the fun factor and limit the amount of complaining in this game. Leads to a happier player base which is good for CCP's wallet. basically don't give players more reasons to complain...

The only thing I read from your post is a good argument for nerfing the base strength of TDs and that they should affect missiles in roder to level the playing field.

As for TDs why should they continue to be weak in that they can't to squat to missile boats? ECM can affect any ship and it's weapon system (even drones if they weren't released in time). Damps can affect any ship. Painters can affect any ship. The relative value of these ewars is of course not balanced since ecm is so much better since preventing a lock is better than reducing a lock range or slowing it down, or increasing the sig on a ship. So here we have Caldari, Gallente, and Minmatar ewar all universally effective (of course the worth of that effect will depend on the situation). But Amarr ewar is absolutely worthless on a whole segment of ships as things are atm. That is not balance in any sense of the word.

Yes, TDs are overused and op in small ship fw fighting. Plenty of mid-slot blessed Caldari ships abusing that mechanic to neuter turret ships. Just don't turn those ******* back on me is not a good reason to oppose CCPs coming change. If they now worry the abusers so much they'd all better get on board with asking for the base module strength for turrets and missiles to be less than it presently is for turrets.

Then when the specialized ships get a bigger ship bonus to compensate it will make them as desireable as griffins and blackbirds etc. This should be done for damps and TPs as well. And it will be a buff to the ships specialized for them. This ironically will be to the benefit of ecm boats. They might not always be the automatic primaries anymore.P

As for heavy missiles, they will be fine. Even with a nerf (at whatever level it ends up being, as percentages could change) they will be far from useless. But they will no longer be a weapon for all seasons. And on the flip side other underperforming and less utilized missile types may be getting slight buffs which will result in making them worth using.

All this is good for the game. Drakes and Tengus Online had to end sometime. If I was vindictive I'd love them to be as worthless and little used as Harbingers etc. have been and that that would last for the next 4 years. But that would not be good for the game.
Narcotics Dealer
G U N D A M
#79 - 2012-09-21 04:16:57 UTC
you'll be able to hit from 40kms for 450-550dps with javelin hams
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-09-21 07:34:36 UTC
I'm getting 530dps with 3 BCU and hobgoblin II's. Discounting drones and using 2 BCU you get 384.