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HEAVY MISSILES NERFED, switch to assault heavy missiles?
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Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-09-19 11:19:31 UTC
Quote:
It will be far from useless. You get a little less range, which is well over due, and a little less dps. However, you can fit a targeting computer in the mids, sacrificing some tank for greatly improved damage application. Also keep in mind that the Drake will get a revamp along with every other BC in time, and I think it will all pan out very well.


20% damage and 25% range is huge. The way it'll work out is that people will switch to whatever is strong at the time. The drake will be a fair way down the list. Therefore people won't use it.

Quote:
Considering that the AC cane is being nerfed, and the armor cane effectively removed, it's not that bad.

I for one like the changes off the bat, I Friggin hate Drakes, I can fly them well but they were to good at to much.


I got the impression that canes will still be decent, but you might have to go for 1 med, 1 small neut instead of 2 medium. Like I was saying, smaller shield gangs will switch over to nados, talos' and arty canes. No one is going to fly a beam harbinger you have to be joking.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-09-19 11:29:30 UTC
Yeah, range comes down a tad BUT the T2 ammo is getting fixed, so no more faction only, drake has to trade damage for range for tank like everything else.....moreso now that it has YEs and TCs to consider.

That medium neut is 200 grid, cane loses 225 grid, I have to look, but I'm pretty sure it'll be 425 and no neuts, or neuts and 220s.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-09-19 11:33:02 UTC
Meta 4 neuts should let you get it on there. I'd say the standard would be 425s and 1 medium/1 small.

I'm not arguing that the drake doesn't need a nerf. I'm saying that the current suggestion will make it obsolete.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-09-19 11:37:36 UTC
Smabs wrote:
Meta 4 neuts should let you get it on there. I'd say the standard would be 425s and 1 medium/1 small.

I'm not arguing that the drake doesn't need a nerf. I'm saying that the current suggestion will make it obsolete.


Not sure, we don't have numbers on how the mods will effect everything.

I have a Drake that slings missiles 110km, so obsolete, 80km doing 350 DPS us acceptable for a medium weapon system.

If you want to brawl with the canes and taller, HAM --------> again just like the rest of the BCs, no one size fits all Drake.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#45 - 2012-09-19 11:38:17 UTC
Drop to meta 4 on shield cane, swap one trimark for an ACR and use medium meta neuts on the armor Cane.

Normal stuff you have to do on every other ship in game, they are called fitting compromises, a vital ingredient in balance between ships.

.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#46 - 2012-09-19 11:40:36 UTC
It's more lake (-)15-20% range because of the revamp of the missile acceleration, so it's not that big of a deal.
And it is still looooong range. If you want more damage, fit HAMs and a Tracking Computer, and ur good to go.

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-09-19 11:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Roime wrote:
Drop to meta 4 on shield cane, swap one trimark for an ACR and use medium meta neuts on the armor Cane.

Normal stuff you have to do on every other ship in game, they are called fitting compromises, a vital ingredient in balance between ships.




Like I said nerfed

That cane only had 35k ish tank with a point, so meta 4 and losing a rig makes it less tanky than a Tornado.

Cool by me, 650 arty was my favorite roaming build anyway.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-09-19 11:46:47 UTC
Quote:
I have a Drake that slings missiles 110km, so obsolete, 80km doing 350 DPS us acceptable for a medium weapon system.

If you want to brawl with the canes and taller, HAM --------> again just like the rest of the BCs, no one size fits all Drake.


Well, with the changes it'll be 60 or 50km doing 300dps. HAM's suck a bit because they need to be in scram range and are awful against frigates.

All this stuff about medium weapons systems is meaningless when there's a lineup of battlecruisers that fit BS guns. People pick the things that work best regardless of how it's 'meant' to be used. Like medium rails and beams, HML's would become fairly pointless. Therefore people will fly things that have good speed and damage projection. A null talos, nado and arty cane will probably have the best combination of speed and damage. That's why people will fly those in roaming gangs and why drakes will be obsolete.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#49 - 2012-09-19 11:47:20 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Heavy Missiles:

Well, I was suggesting a NERF to heavy missile range for a long time now. The aforementioned had a serious advantage over comparable turrets (artillery, beam laser). @ first I didn't like the reduction in damage, but it makes sense when compared to artillery and beam laser @ 60,000m (using long range ammunition).

Increasing heavy assault missiles range by fitting tracking enhancers is interesting, but isn't needed if CCP's removing the penalties of javelin missiles...

So, pilots have to fit 3 damage mods on thier heavy missile-Drakes instead of 2 (I rock 3 now). You'd need 3 damage modules to repilcate what 2 damage modules are capable of doing currently. How much will this really NERF the Tengu? Not that much. Infact, it puts the Tengu inline with a Proteus using railguns or a Legion using pulse lasers @ 45 - 55,000m. However, there's still a significant difference in range and damage maintained @ that range. Solo-Tengu setups will be hit HARD. CCP should also remove the ability of strategic cruisers to fit ganglinks altogether. To make sure Command ships are the first and only choice for that purpose.


Cruisers:

These changes are the most interesting. I'm not going to go into why to much, but the Caracal and Thorax seem to make it out like bandits. I'm waiting to see what will happen with the Rupture and Vexor. I'm worried about the Vexor, but after seeing the Thorax changes I'm worried about the Thorax @tleast in warp scrambler and stasis webifier range. However, the Moa could suprise me esp if they increased the drone bay like they with the Omen.


- end of transmission



https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1939744#post1939744

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-09-19 11:51:25 UTC
Smabs wrote:
Quote:
I have a Drake that slings missiles 110km, so obsolete, 80km doing 350 DPS us acceptable for a medium weapon system.

If you want to brawl with the canes and taller, HAM --------> again just like the rest of the BCs, no one size fits all Drake.


Well, with the changes it'll be 60 or 50km doing 300dps. HAM's suck a bit because they need to be in scram range and are awful against frigates.

All this stuff about medium weapons systems is meaningless when there's a lineup of battlecruisers that fit BS guns. People pick the things that work best regardless of how it's 'meant' to be used. Like medium rails and beams, HML's would become fairly pointless. Therefore people will fly things that have good speed and damage projection. A null talos, nado and arty cane will probably have the best combination of speed and damage. That's why people will fly those in roaming gangs and why drakes will be obsolete.


Nah, it only 20% before tracking mods and before JAVELIN...

And surprise, I've spent a lot more time in nadoes, Drakes,and Oracles then canes in the last 6 months.

No more drake blobs? Excuse me while I shed a tear. Seriously.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#51 - 2012-09-19 11:55:15 UTC
Peter Raptor wrote:
Almost finnished training the Tengu, and suddenly I see CCP Fozzie announcing Heavy Missiles will be nerfed Ughhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155029&find=unread

Will people switch to Heavy Assault Missiles for the Tengu and Drake (the Assaults will not be rebalanced in the winter Expansion), or is it something thats just not done? I'm fairly new to these ships, that's all.



If the TE/TC changes go through as advertised, then the Cruise CNR will become the go-to missile PvE ship again. TEs are easy to fit and they'll fit just fine in that 5th low slot. And the CNR can easily mount a Tracking Comp as well. Put a tracking script in there and T2 Cruise missiles become extremely effective.

I've already sold my mission Tengus (thanks for the ISK, chumps!) and I'll be skilling up my Tengu alt for Caldari BS 5 and T2 Cruise. He already has all the other skills he needs from flying the Tengu.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#52 - 2012-09-19 12:21:15 UTC
Also, this MAY mean heavy missile Drakes will be less effective against a shield-Hurricane or Harbinger. Will this effect thier use in small gangs? Not really. Heavy missile range is still significant and thier tank is still intact. You'll have to use 3 damage modules instead of just 2. @ that point your damage is 330 or 340 compared to 370 now (with faction ammuntion).

I personally use 3 damage modules on my nano-Drake now and it's not that difficult to fit. Pilots may use tracking enhancers to increase missile range to be extra lame with a arazu/claymore on grid providing boost v0v

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#53 - 2012-09-19 12:34:28 UTC
Old-school 2007-2008 HAM Drake used to reliably beat other BCs, with the amusing exception of the Myrm. While blasters and ACs do a bit more damage these days, it's still extremely competitive, particularly if Rage is going to do even more damage. Frigates never used to be a fundamental problem, although shooting kinetic at an ABing Enyo is unlikely to be sensible.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-09-19 13:15:29 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Old-school 2007-2008 HAM Drake used to reliably beat other BCs, with the amusing exception of the Myrm. While blasters and ACs do a bit more damage these days, it's still extremely competitive, particularly if Rage is going to do even more damage. Frigates never used to be a fundamental problem, although shooting kinetic at an ABing Enyo is unlikely to be sensible.



Yeah I'm not tossing my missile hulls yet.

I actually like HAM tengus
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-09-19 13:19:45 UTC
the HML nerfed is far too much imo, granted the tengu and HML ships arnt my everyday choice, but with 20% less dps i might just not use them again at all.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-09-19 13:55:09 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
the HML nerfed is far too much imo, granted the tengu and HML ships arnt my everyday choice, but with 20% less dps i might just not use them again at all.



HML's were simply brought into line with the other medium long range weapons. It simply no longer does BS damage at BS ranges.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#57 - 2012-09-19 14:11:07 UTC
Problem with current HM's is that they can do the same damage as close range guns even though they are technically the LR option, suggested changes sorts that nicely.

Tengu will nerfed regardless, too good at too many things at once. HAM Drake (aka. PvP Drake) gets a massive boost as does proposed Caracal.

Plus you get a lot more control over the performance of the missiles by way of TC/TE, you'll no longer have a maximum range dictated solely by skills .. in exchange your missiles become vulnerable to eWar.

In Short: Changes are geared towards the PvP side of things as it should be, PvE has and will always find the new black (remember cruise ravens .. how hard would you have laughed back then if someone told you people would seriously mission in HM BCs/Cruisers?)
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Gildinous Vangaurd
The Initiative.
#58 - 2012-09-19 14:17:00 UTC
Smabs wrote:
Meta 4 neuts should let you get it on there. I'd say the standard would be 425s and 1 medium/1 small.

I'm not arguing that the drake doesn't need a nerf. I'm saying that the current suggestion will make it obsolete.


We also have no idea what slot layout changes (if any) will come to the Drake. We may see it lose a mid and gain a low - who knows?

"I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!"
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-09-19 14:57:51 UTC
HAMs were pref nerfed too much, HMLs are fine

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#60 - 2012-09-19 19:31:17 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Jake Warbird wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Jake Warbird wrote:
So missile boats will have to add TEs with BCUs with their anemic slot layout?


Or TCs. Your choice.

I hear ya. Genuine question since you seem to know your way around fitting ships: I usually run TPs in my mids, so does this mean I have to choose between TPs or TCs? Or am I being a noob and missing something?


We don't know yet, basically. But my read so far is that TCs are going to be all around better. Not only do they effect everything and not just a specific target for 10 seconds, they can also either increase range or damage application.

This is actually sounding like all kinds of awesome. Rather than cycling painters, which is hellishly boring and micro-managey, you get the same choices you would on a proper gun boat and only have to fiddle with the module when you need another option. Now, if we could just get them to script omnis I'll be ridiculously happy....


Right on, depending on how they do it, TCs/TEs might actualy help fix the Golems "Target Painter Juggling" problem.