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CALDARI RACE FOREVER DESTROYED

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Robert De'Arneth
#21 - 2012-09-18 20:49:24 UTC
Gogela wrote:
O well guess I'll be Gallente or something now... Roll



Darn tootin!! Well, does this mean I can take missles out of my July-October Skill run for 2013?

I'm a nerd, you can check my stats!! Skilling Int/Mem at 45 sp per minute is how I mack!     I'm like a lapdog, all bark no bite. 
Cristl
#22 - 2012-09-18 20:50:27 UTC
RAGE QU1T wrote:
..will kill off the caldari race once and for all now...


Confirming that Caldari haven't been seen in PvP or PvE for quite a while now. Hang on...

Also, isn't there a dedicated thread for this in the F & I forum? Oh right, that's just for non-capital discussions. Non-capital letter discussions that is.

Carry on.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2012-09-18 20:50:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
[quote=baltec1]

Are they also getting weapon tiers, instant damage and a full selection of T1/faction range:damge ammo choices to bring them in line with other med long range weapons?

No?

Gosh, it's almost as if you can't directly compare a single stat and expect to balance 2 very different weapon types on that.


Name a turret that cant miss.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-09-18 20:51:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Range decrease is fine, adding a damage decrease - by 20 percent no less - to an already mediocre damaged weapons system is ******* ********.


It brings them in line with the other med long range weapons.

Buff HAM range by, say, 30% then.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2012-09-18 20:53:44 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Buff HAM range by, say, 30% then.


HAM are fine as they are. The only reason they ever looked bad was because Heavies were so good.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-09-18 20:53:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tengu and Drake nerf is long overdue.

Also Caracals are going to be so much fun this winter.


The Drake is the most boring ship in the game, mainly because (at least for PVE) it's just too easy to turn it into an unstoppable pwnmobile. Missioning in a Drake means warping in to 30-40km off the beacon and then just letting the launchers run until all the bad guys are dead.

I always thought the Ferox was a more fun ship to fly, mainly because it took more fitting skill to make it worth using for higher-level missions. (And the Nighthawk is just a way cooler-looking boat than the Drake, if you must use missiles.)

Missiles have always been slightly overpowered for PVE use, and useless in most PVP scenarios, so I'm glad that CCP is doing something about them. Mainly because it might make my beloved Ferox a competitive BC again!
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-09-18 20:54:19 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Range decrease is fine, adding a damage decrease - by 20 percent no less - to an already mediocre damaged weapons system is ******* ********.


It brings them in line with the other med long range weapons.


Are they also getting weapon tiers, instant damage and a full selection of T1/faction range:damge ammo choices to bring them in line with other med long range weapons?

No?

Gosh, it's almost as if you can't directly compare a single stat and expect to balance 2 very different weapon types on that.


To be fair,

it's not based around just directly comparing the stats.

I mean think about it, when's the last time you saw Medium Rails being effective in PvP?

Beams and Arty both have their niches but neither are anywhere near mainstream or amazing.

Heavy Missiles were both mainstream and amazing.

These changes will either put them in beam/arty territory where they have a small niche in which they work or in rail territory in which their main use will be PvE.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#28 - 2012-09-18 21:15:58 UTC
Tengu/Drake Pilot here...

I always wondered why they were so OP in PVE compared to their counterparts. Are you saying they are not?

Show me another t3 cruiser that pushes 725 dps at 100 km AND fits a tank able to solo the hardest lowsec plexes.
Toroup
Prometheus Deep Core Mining and Salvage
#29 - 2012-09-18 21:21:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Toroup
I use cruise missiles - no change for me.

Maybe you weak Deteis will crumble under the change but we Civire will always survive. We will always be the backbone of the empire!

Revolution! REVOLUTION!
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-09-18 21:47:25 UTC
What are they changing about the Tengu?
Ensign X
#31 - 2012-09-18 21:48:15 UTC
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
What are they changing about the Tengu?


What?

20% nerf to HML damage might have an impact on Tengu DPS.
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-09-18 21:51:16 UTC
Ensign X wrote:
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
What are they changing about the Tengu?


What?

20% nerf to HML damage might have an impact on Tengu DPS.


Why are they nerfing heavy missile damage? They already do less damage than medium guns.
Ensign X
#33 - 2012-09-18 21:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ensign X
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:


Why are they nerfing heavy missile damage? They already do less damage than medium guns.


Because CCP decided that instead of just nerfing the Drake or the Tengu, they would nerf the entire weapon system they rely upon as well as every other ship that uses or used HMLs. To quote a wise man:

Quote:

The makers of Ben and Jerry Ice Cream became aware that their Chunky Monkey brand of Ice Cream was outselling all their other flavours. It seemed everybody wanted to eat Chunky Monkey because it was so delicious. But Ben and Jerry wanted their other brands to be just as good as Chunky Monkey so that everybody could enjoy them. So Ben and Jerry went and took a **** in their next batch of Chunky Monkey. When asked why would they do this, they answered:

"It was just so much easier to make Chunky Monkey taste like **** than to make the other flavours taste better."

CCP went to the Ben and Jerry School of Product Design
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-09-18 21:55:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Yokai Mitsuhide
Ensign X wrote:
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:


Why are they nerfing heavy missile damage? They already do less damage than medium guns.


Because CCP decided that instead of just nerfing the Drake or the Tengu, they would nerf the entire weapon system they rely upon as well as every other ship that uses or used HMLs. To quote a wise man:
Quote:

The makers of Ben and Jerry Ice Cream became aware that their Chunky Monkey brand of Ice Cream was outselling all their other flavours. It seemed everybody wanted to eat Chunky Monkey because it was so delicious. But Ben and Jerry wanted their other brands to be just as good as Chunky Monkey so that everybody could enjoy them. So Ben and Jerry went and took a **** in their next batch of Chunky Monkey. When asked why would they do this, they answered:

"It was just so much easier to make Chunky Monkey taste like **** than to make the other flavours taste better."

CCP went to the Ben and Jerry School of Product Design


lol nice...
Sucks that they are doing this, but thank you for the wonderfully hilarious explanation P
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2012-09-18 22:01:58 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2012-09-18 22:06:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.


Also let's ignore flight time and wrecking shots.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-09-18 22:06:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.


Comparing T2 to faction performance seems off somehow, but the I'm not sure what faction ammo variant would best be used to base comparisons on. Unless we are talking purely max projection.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-09-18 22:09:17 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Also let's ignore flight time and wrecking shots.

Isn't flight time being reduced? Also, how much do wrecking shots affect long term DPS?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2012-09-18 22:12:22 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Also let's ignore flight time and wrecking shots.

Isn't flight time being reduced? Also, how much do wrecking shots affect long term DPS?

Reduced yes, but still finite, as opposed to the instant damage done by turrets.
Wrecking shots overall add about 3% to DPS.

We're also talking about a system here that doesn't scale well vs. target size, and target's absolute velocity (not transversal) can be used to mitigate DPS. Not only that, but tracking disruptors will come back with a reducing effect on missile DPS.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#40 - 2012-09-18 22:13:15 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Comparing T2 to faction performance seems off somehow, but the I'm not sure what faction ammo variant would best be used to base comparisons on. Unless we are talking purely max projection.


Max projection.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Also let's ignore flight time and wrecking shots.


Neither of which changes the DPS.

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