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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1941 - 2012-09-20 14:35:01 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:


The reason you are hitting approaching frigs harders is because of the sig bloom from the mwd. Once they are in orbit their sig will go down and you will do less damage.

It does not matter in what direction they are traveling in relation to you.



No, his is against frigs and cruisers with and without prop mods.

Just go test it and you'll see.

Use torps, it stands out more
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#1942 - 2012-09-20 14:36:35 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:


deart laves wrote:

and why is it when missile boats get a damage bonus it's only towards racial damage types


Kestrel getting 5% bonus to damage of all missiles
Carcal getting 5% bonus to ROF

You should probably read more before posting.



There are actually quite a few missile boats limited one damage type.
bombers of course with reason but also

Tengu -
Tengu offensive "Accelerated Ejection Bay" - 5% bonus to kinetic missile damage
(there are 3 other offensive subs that don't get a kinetic bonus, but also don't get as much dps)

(not including all damage buffs, just specifically where is shows a damage type making that damage type more dps)
Drake - 5% bonus kinetic damage of heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles per level

Caracal - 5% bonus Kinetic Missile Damage

Caracal Navy - 5% bonus Kinetic Missile Damage

Cerberus - 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage

Onyx - 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage

Nighthawk - 5% bonus to heavy missile Kinetic damage

Flycatcher - 5% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile kinetic damage per level

Condor - 5% bonus to light missile and rocket kinetic damage

Heron - 5% bonus kinetic missile damage per level

Kestrel - 10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage and 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage per level

Caldari Navy Hookbill - 20% bonus to Kinetic missile damage, 10% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage per level

Hawk - 10% bonus to Missile Kinetic Damage per level

Buzzard - 5% bonus to Missile Kinetic Damage per level

Crow - 10% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage per level

Phoenix - 5% bonus to kinetic missile damage

Leviathan - 125% bonus to Citadel Missile kinetic damage per level



"These aren't the missile boats you're looking for"


:facepalm:

It's not about what bonuses those boats get now.
It's about what bonuses will they get throughout rebalancing process.

Caldari are getting their kinetic-only bonus changed to rof or omni-damage bonus.
Just like those two ships ( Kestrel and Carcal ). They currently have only kinetic damage bonus but it is being changed to rof or omni bonus.
Aaron Greil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1943 - 2012-09-20 14:36:40 UTC
shandroki wrote:
Still have borken features from last patch.....................CHECK
Gonna break the game even more by destroying ships people love.........................CHECK
Gonna **** off the palyer base AGAIN...........................................Check

Good luck guys the way you keep going your gonna go out of business when people finally get tired of your ****.



This type of post is completely unhelpful, and only serves to make your side of the argument sound like a bunch of whiny bitches. There are plenty of us who completely disagree with every one of those "statements." Now how about you contribute something useful?
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1944 - 2012-09-20 14:38:30 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
So, even with the 20% nerf, these things are still well inline with other long ranged weapon systems.


With a 20% damage nerf drakes will be doing much less dps than any other tier 2 bc.

With a 25% range nerf it will have way less range than all other bcs in general.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1945 - 2012-09-20 14:39:31 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:


First, you are incorrect, direction has NO bearing on missile mechanics. Guns, yes, Missiles no. Non what-so-ever. If you don't believe me....go test it.

Second, you mis-understood my statement. My statement is such that...as long as you keep speed, my dps against said ship will not fluctuate. If my first volley against said ship is 1100.....then unless they change speeds or a target painter is used, every subsequent volley is going to be the same 1100.

I use missiles all the time, I don't want the nerf, and I've probably spent more time in EFT than I have in game.



I have been flying missile boats since '08. I have flown with heavy, torp, cruise, and have used t2 on all but rapid light.

I am well aware of their capabilities and have experienced it many times. Less so with heavy missiles but still occurs.

I flew a torp golem. Using javelin missiles I could 1 shot a cruiser and a frig approaching me using 2 target painters.

However, once they were in orbit it would take me at least 4 volleys to down a frig.

The reasoning for this is

If you fire at a target approaching you, the missile will explode in front of the target forcing it to fly into the explosion.

Now, when you fire at an orbitting target or a target moving away from you, then the missile will explode behind it, thus it's flying out of the explosion.

This has a direct impact on the damage you do to the target expecially with frigates and cruisers because their base speeds are equal to or faster than the explosion velocity of the missile fired at them.

So, it is you that should go test it.

I am 100% sure that you CANNOT hit an orbitting frig or cruiser for the same damage as an approaching frig/cruiser.

Also, mwd and afterburners have play as well, and with these modules, hitting them while aproaching is still going to be more effective than hitting them while they're running or orbitting.

TRUST ME... Go test it on some rats in the test server.


The reason you are hitting approaching frigs harders is because of the sig bloom from the mwd. Once they are in orbit their sig will go down and you will do less damage.

It does not matter in what direction they are traveling in relation to you.


Quoting for truth. Missiles don't care about your vector. They explode on your ship center and you are always considered to be flying out of the explosion radius.

Test with two actual players instead of npcs.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#1946 - 2012-09-20 14:40:01 UTC
deart laves wrote:
i disapprove of heavy missile damage nerf. Missions aren't really worth it as is and the best thing to my knowledge is using a missile boat for missions. So we decrease the damage coming out of a tengu and put it on par w/ running lvl 4's w/ a hawk?

and why is it when missile boats get a damage bonus it's only towards racial damage types but minmatar which can also switch damage types (though not as specific) get's a general damage bonus?


Try machariel for lvl4 missions and you will find that it is much better than tengu and even fitted price is almost same.
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1947 - 2012-09-20 14:41:15 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:


First, you are incorrect, direction has NO bearing on missile mechanics. Guns, yes, Missiles no. Non what-so-ever. If you don't believe me....go test it.

Second, you mis-understood my statement. My statement is such that...as long as you keep speed, my dps against said ship will not fluctuate. If my first volley against said ship is 1100.....then unless they change speeds or a target painter is used, every subsequent volley is going to be the same 1100.

I use missiles all the time, I don't want the nerf, and I've probably spent more time in EFT than I have in game.



I have been flying missile boats since '08. I have flown with heavy, torp, cruise, and have used t2 on all but rapid light.

I am well aware of their capabilities and have experienced it many times. Less so with heavy missiles but still occurs.

I flew a torp golem. Using javelin missiles I could 1 shot a cruiser and a frig approaching me using 2 target painters.

However, once they were in orbit it would take me at least 4 volleys to down a frig.

The reasoning for this is

If you fire at a target approaching you, the missile will explode in front of the target forcing it to fly into the explosion.

Now, when you fire at an orbitting target or a target moving away from you, then the missile will explode behind it, thus it's flying out of the explosion.

This has a direct impact on the damage you do to the target expecially with frigates and cruisers because their base speeds are equal to or faster than the explosion velocity of the missile fired at them.

So, it is you that should go test it.

I am 100% sure that you CANNOT hit an orbitting frig or cruiser for the same damage as an approaching frig/cruiser.

Also, mwd and afterburners have play as well, and with these modules, hitting them while aproaching is still going to be more effective than hitting them while they're running or orbitting.

TRUST ME... Go test it on some rats in the test server.


The reason you are hitting approaching frigs harders is because of the sig bloom from the mwd. Once they are in orbit their sig will go down and you will do less damage.

It does not matter in what direction they are traveling in relation to you.


Thank you....don't test it on rats...test it on an alt and you'll see.
Anabaric
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#1948 - 2012-09-20 14:41:30 UTC
Reading through the complaints, and praise both seem pretty equal in numbers...

CCP must be doing something right. Cool

Community Manager www.Battleclinic.com @battleclinic Loadouts + Killboards + Forums Twitter @anabaric_eve www.the-bastards.net Recruitment: OPEN
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1949 - 2012-09-20 14:42:33 UTC
Anabaric wrote:
Reading through the complaints, and praise both seem pretty equal in numbers...

CCP must be doing something right. Cool


You must be reading a different thread than I am.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#1950 - 2012-09-20 14:48:16 UTC
The more I think about it the more I begin to believe that all the heavy missile nerfs are justified. Except the 20% reduction in damage, which is frankly ridiculous.

Alot of people are saying that because missiles always hit they have an unfair advantage. These people don't recognise that just because they hit doesn't mean they do damage. I've seen drake volleys hit for 2 damage on afterburner frigs at full speed. You really might as well be doing no damage at all there. Its essentially the same as with turrets, except turrets only have their damage reduced when people are travelling in certain directions ( as opposed to missiles which get a -ve to their damage no matter which direction the person is traveling). On top of that, turrets can still hit for criticals. Something that never happens with missiles.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
soullessbox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1951 - 2012-09-20 14:58:03 UTC
Who cares about missiles, GALLENTE FOREVA!!! SUCK MY DRONE MODULES
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1952 - 2012-09-20 14:59:11 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
The more I think about it the more I begin to believe that all the heavy missile nerfs are justified. Except the 20% reduction in damage, which is frankly ridiculous.

Alot of people are saying that because missiles always hit they have an unfair advantage. These people don't recognise that just because they hit doesn't mean they do damage. I've seen drake volleys hit for 2 damage on afterburner frigs at full speed. You really might as well be doing no damage at all there. Its essentially the same as with turrets, except turrets only have their damage reduced when people are travelling in certain directions ( as opposed to missiles which get a -ve to their damage no matter which direction the person is traveling). On top of that, turrets can still hit for criticals. Something that never happens with missiles.


People also forget that while the range on T2 heavies is 76k, effectively, it is around 70k because anymore than that and your missile could run out of fuel before it reaches the target that is orbiting, and if it turns and runs, most likely it will....with the proposed changes, that will knock it down to 56k, 50k effectively. On the flip side, in a PVP fight, the drake can't switch to HAM's for higher dps...they can switch to precision, but that really isn't going to increase it's DPS. And now you want to add TD to missiles, so instead of fitting a tank, rig for sig radius, increase my speed and fit a TD and laugh as I get blasted for 20 damage on volleys.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1953 - 2012-09-20 15:00:15 UTC
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:

Thank you....don't test it on rats...test it on an alt and you'll see.



Old thread, but still relevant to the topic.

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/107086/page/8
Signal11th
#1954 - 2012-09-20 15:01:50 UTC
Anabaric wrote:
Reading through the complaints, and praise both seem pretty equal in numbers...

CCP must be doing something right. Cool




You wouldn't be a politician in real life would you?? The OP has got so far 58 likes in a thread that contains nearly 2000 posts.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#1955 - 2012-09-20 15:01:50 UTC
My Sentries will be moving faster then your missiles, soon enough.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#1956 - 2012-09-20 15:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
My 2 cents:

On the HM changes:
Currently, HMs are way overpowered, no doubt. In general, I do support the changes proposed by CCP Fozzie.
But although Fozzie may be right and it really required a -25% range AND -20% dmg nerf to bring them in line with other weapon systems, I am a bit sceptical about these drastic changes.

Maybe he did the number crunching right, BUT there is a ton of additional factors that separate missiles from turrets and the way damage is applied in the end. With one dramatic change to these parameters, I see a risk of over-nerfing due to unforseeable sandbox side effects.

If you say range ist the biggest problem, why not give them -25% range, only -10% dmg and take some time to evaluate the changes?
If after 3 months Drakes and Tengus still overshadow any other ship hull and continue to be seen in swarms of hundreds, then you just swing the nerf bat again for another -10% dmg...
Evolution instead of revolution.

If you still want to stick with the -20% dmg, then at least switch the Drake/Tengu damage bonus to kinetic damage to a flat +5% to all damages.
That would be good in 2 different ways:
a) Drake pilots would have to start thinking even more :-D AND a clever choice of ammunition could in some cases make up for the loss of dps through the HM nerf.
b) one could not simply assume that Drakes fire Scourge, which would make Drakes a bit less predictable and boring for opponents.


On Tracking/Tracking Disruption changes:

a) Missiles are affected - that is a good one imo. Now Drake / Tengu pilots need to consider whether they really need the range and sacrifice a slot or 2.

I do see the problem that TD is getting overpowered like some others.
To cure this, I like Fozzies suggestion of different disruption mods best. Missile Disruptor + Tracking Disruptor.
-more items are always nice
-you have to take a meaningful decision when fitting the ship (am I expecting missile boats or turrets?)
-both turret TD and missile TD can be balanced seperately in terms of numbers (maybe the base strength will be different)

b) The overall effectiveness of TD is another issue though. I am a great fan of E-War which is why I know by heart that with all proposed winter changes revealed so you could create TD monsters with near 95% Optimal Range Disruption.
Yes this is very difficult, you would need Storyline TDs, Rigs, full ship boni, a booster Proteus with perfect skills & Mindlink... but I am pretty sure that I would see this everywhere after some time if it makes people win.

The problem here are not the missiles, but the proposed higher ship boni on E-War on cruisers an frigates of 7,5% per level.
If on the other hand the base strength of TDs would be lowered, I think I would not like it.

Why, everyone is crying for specialized hulls with determined roles - I don't! I don't like it to be reduced to choose between only 2-3 hulls if I want a special effect.
For E-War this is especially dramatic, because the effects are race-specific.
Also I don't it if the complete tactics of a fleet can be seen on D-Scan already.
Oh, there is an arbitrator, they CERTAINLY have tracking disruption.
Or worse: no Arbitrator/Curse - we are safe from Tracking Disruption!

Therefore I do support the idea to make the new E-War cruisers EW/combat hybrids, but I would rather like them to keep their old 5% bonus. Same for frigates.

I you want to buff tracking disruption, why not instead improve the effectiveness of the appropriate rig or the Information Warfare Gang Link?
Terik Deatharbingr
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1957 - 2012-09-20 15:06:39 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Terik Deatharbingr wrote:

Thank you....don't test it on rats...test it on an alt and you'll see.



Old thread, but still relevant to the topic.

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/107086/page/8


Just did it myself with a buddy....hit the same on each volley....him approaching, orbiting and going away.
Unit757
North Point
#1958 - 2012-09-20 15:07:17 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
So, even with the 20% nerf, these things are still well inline with other long ranged weapon systems.


With a 20% damage nerf drakes will be doing much less dps than any other tier 2 bc.

With a 25% range nerf it will have way less range than all other bcs in general.


Yes, because 350ish DPS @ 50KM is "Way less" then any other long ranged BC. Use a HAM drake, it hits farther and harder then most other short ranged battlecruisers.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1959 - 2012-09-20 15:09:11 UTC
Posting this again because I feel it's a good suggest instead of the proposed nerfs and put ALL guided missiles in line with other weapons systems

(AND BECAUSE CCP WON'T LET ME MAKE MY OWN THREAD)

HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
OK, I'm going to throw out some numbers.

This is going to be all skills lvl 5 and I'll use the 4 tier 2 bc's with their respective weapon systems, with boh t2 ammo types, and drones for the Myrmidon since that is it's specialty.

Now, one thing that will be different is I will use my proposed change to missiles.

That is,

PRECISION WILL BE LONG RANGE AND FURY WILL BE SHORT RANGE.

This is on par with how every other weapon system is balanced. Greater range means less dps.

Also, keep in mind that I'm not adding faction or t1 ammo because these will need to be balanced similar to unguided missiles, and I don't feel like doing that myself.

However, if you would like to do that, than just use unguided missiles as an example (i.e. the precentage difference between t1 and faction compared to t2 will be roughly equal)

Ok, here it goes (no other modules)

{ammo - dps @ range}

Drake
Hams II
Rage - 349 @ 18.1
Javelin - 197 @ 30.4

Hml II - (with my proposed swap in ranges)
Fury - 224 @ 42.2
Precision - 189 @ 75.9

Hurricane
425mm AC II
Hail - 417 @ 1.5+9 = 10.5
Barrage - 298 @ 3+18 = 21

720mm HA II
Quake - 294 @ 7.5 + 22 = 29.5
Tremor - 168 @ 54 + 22 = 77

Harbinger
Heavy Pulse II
Conflagration - 406 @ 7.5 + 5 = 12.5
Scorch - 290 @ 23 + 5 = 28

Heavy Beam II
Gleam - 323 @ 7.5 + 10 = 17.5
Aurora - 184 @ 54 + 10 = 64

Myrmidon
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Void - 341 @ 3.4 + 3.1 = 6.5
Null - 244 @ 6.3 + 8.8 = 15.1

250mm Railgun II
Javelin - 210 @ 9 + 15 = 24
Spike - 120 @ 65 + 15 = 80

With 5 x t2 medium drones each set gets plus 238 dps @ up to 60km with all skills lvl 5.

close range high damage
The drake has the greatest range by 5.6km to 11.6km
Has lowest dps by 230 to 57

high damage with range
Drake has greatet range by 2.4km to 15.3km
Lowest dps by 285 dps to 93 dps

(REMEMBER, THESE NEXT TWO ARE WITH MY PROPOSED SWAP TO GUIDED MISSILES)
Long range high damage
Drake has greatest range by 12.7km to 24.7km
But lowest dps by 224dps to 70 dps

Max range
Drake has 3rd greatest range being 4.1km from the top, and 11.9km from the bottom
Drake has greatest dps by 69 to 5 dps (behind by 169 @ up to 60km from myrm drones & turrets)


Now, the myrmidon shines in dps up to 60 km and has the greatest possible range @ 80km, but lowest dps at max range

The drake has the highest range until max range, but the highest dps at max range, but by substationally less dps than it is overpowered by in other ranges.

Now, when you consider my suggested change of swapping fury and precision ranges for all guided missiles, these weapon systems actually seem fairly balanced apart from hybrids on a myrm, but it makes up for it with drones.


I think this would negate the need for a range AND dps nerf to heavy missiles.

Instead, then needed nerfs could be aimed directly at the tengu and drake themselves.

Perhaps drop the drake shield recharge rate so that it can't fit a passive tank as effectively as it does.

With the tengu, drop its range bonuses, and reduce cpu and pg so that it can't fit 100mn afterburners and so that it has tochoose between dps or tank.

BOOM!!! besides balancing faction and t1 guided missiles, the drake and tengu are balanced and guided missiles become balanced in the same manner as every other weapon system.



To add to this, perhaps they could do the same with T.D.s that they do with jammers.

That is, make them racial.
Develop a T.D. that is anti race.

So, if you're fitting TD against gravimetric, then you're going to be more effective at disrupting Caldari ships but unusable against everything else.

Or, you could fit multispectrum disruptors that are effective against all types, but much less effective as a racial on specific race.

Again, just like jammers.


This coupled with my suggested change to guided missiles is actually pretty fair.

Missiles become reasonable damage at long range, and TDs don't become an I win button.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1960 - 2012-09-20 15:10:40 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Unit757 wrote:
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
So, even with the 20% nerf, these things are still well inline with other long ranged weapon systems.


With a 20% damage nerf drakes will be doing much less dps than any other tier 2 bc.

With a 25% range nerf it will have way less range than all other bcs in general.


Yes, because 350ish DPS @ 50KM is "Way less" then any other long ranged BC. Use a HAM drake, it hits farther and harder then most other short ranged battlecruisers.


Look at my balance suggestions in my quoted post above...

It makes more sense with those changes, and no range or dps nerf would be required.